Converting required crew in to HS

[Deedasmi (OP)]

Hey all, I'm working on a spreadsheet so I can accurately make ship engines.  I have all the formulas, except for converting the crew required to run the engines and jump drives into HS on the ship.

Engines appear to use EPM*HS always rounded down.  Jump drives just use 2*HS crew.  So lets say we have an Engine crew of 55.  How do I convert 55 crew into the HS required for the crew quarters?

I'm having issues with this for a couple reasons:
1.  We cannot add and remove crew quarters by demand.
2.  I can't find any place that lists the sizes of quarters and number of crew.
3.  When I add the same exact engine to two different ship classes, the crew quarters change by different amounts.
4.  Affect of deployment time on crew quarters

[Haji]

Crew accommodation mechanics, as used presently, have been introduced in the 6.00 patch, so if you want to learn about them, here's the topic:

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,4835.0.html

I've checked, it's there (post number 14), but it's long so I couldn't bother to read it.

[Deedasmi (OP)]

Thanks for the link! It explained the math that I was having troubles with.  However, I'm still not getting the right answer

In my current test ship I have these values:

Base Hull = 16 HS
Jump drive = 12 HS
Engine = 25 HS (.   6 power mod)
Deployment time 36 months

This gives a required engine crew of 39 (confirmed by the game).   
It also gives a tonnage per man of 3. 302 (confirmed by the game).   

(39*3. 302)/50=2. 57556 HS.  This is what I'm expecting my ship to grow outside of engine and jump drive size, for crew accommodations.     

When I add the engine and jump drive to me ship, it makes the final size 57HS.     

57-16-12-25=4HS.  Why is my actual change in accommodations over a full HS above my expected? There are no spare berths before or after engines.   

This wouldn't usually be a big deal, but after I add sensors to my ship that 1 phantom HS puts it over the max jump drive size.     

[clement]

I may be wrong but I thought Crew Quarters had a crew requirement as well. I would check to see if that is the case because that would explain the difference.

[Deedasmi (OP)]

Adding the engine and jump drive increases the crew by 39, which is exactly what I was estimating.  Crew quarters have a listed crew of 0 as well.

[sublight]

Most likely the extra HS is coming from the extra armor needed to cover a wider ship.

[Deedasmi (OP)]

Most likely the extra HS is coming from the extra armor needed to cover a wider ship. 

This is correct!

Yet another problem though. . . .  How is armor area calculated? From hxxp: aurora2.  pentarch.  org/index.  php/topic,1955.  0.  html

"Armour Area is the surface area of the ship based on the assumption it is spherical in shape"

My two test cases (with and without engines) come out to

Exact ship size: 16.  4
Armor area: 32
Assuming ship size is a volume.   root(16.  4*. 75/pi,3)^2*4pi)=~31. 21, depending on decimals of pi. 

And

Exact ship size: 52
Armor area: 72.  5
root(52*. 75/pi,3)^2*4pi)=~67. 3 depending on decimals of pi. 

Why are my conversions from volume to area different than the ship designers? I've even used multiple online conversion calculators just to make sure my math isn't bad.  Am I making a simple mistake and just not seeing it? Is it assuming something that I'm not compensating for?

This should be the last step to my spreadsheet.   I've searched the wiki and the forums.   Thanks for all the help so far!

EDIT: Also, why does my post put spaces after the periods when I edit the post?

[NihilRex]

The only question I can answer is the last - it adds spaces to break links as an anti-spam technique for users with too few posts.

[PSI]

The Exact Class Size isn't the volume. It's just the total amount of hull spaces that comprise the ship.
I guess you'll have to ask Steve about the surface area thing.

[sloanjh]

My recollection is that the surface area is calculated before armor is added, then the armor is added to a certain depth.  It's been a loooong time though so I could be mis-remembering.  So my guess would be that you need to subtract off the armor volume from the exact volume before doing your area calculation (to get the armor area).

The problem with this recollection is that if it were what's going on, then you should be calculating numbers for armor area that are too big, rather than too small (like you're seeing).  So what I would do is create some ships with a ridiculously big (e.g. 100) layers of armor and see how the various numbers change when you go from e.g. 100 to 200 layers.  That should tell you which numbers are affected by the armor.  For example, does the exact size go up by 100 in that case, or by more?

John

[Charlie Beeler]

I can't tell you how Steve is calculating surface in the game program.  But I can tell you how I'm handling it in my ship prototyper, which does come to the same result as the game program.  I've confirmed with Steve that I'm using the same basic formula for determining surface area as he is.

First, armor columns are 1/4 (rounddown) of the calculated surface of a sphere.   Assume the area of a single hullspace to be 1 for calculating the radius. 

So the calc for the radius of a sphere is:
Rs=((3*(Ahs*Ths))/(4*(PI())))^(1/3)

Rs = radius of sphere
Ahs = area of a hull space = 1
Ths = total hull spaces

The calc for the surface of sphere is:
Sa=ROUNDDOWN((4*(PI())*(Rs^2)),1)  -- rounded to 1 decimal

Sa = surface area of sphere

Total columns of armor is a simple divide by 4.  Hull space for armor is to divide the columns by the armor tech points per hull space multiplied by layers.

[Deedasmi (OP)]

Charlie,

Would you be willing to share your spreadsheet? I just took those formulas, plugged them into excel, replaced Ahs*Ths with 16. 4 (1*16. 4) and the output is 31. 2, the same as my math.  You multiplied by 3 then divided by 4pi, I multiplied by . 75 then divided by pi.  It's the same formula.  However, not the same as the game.

PSI,

If you think about applying the total hull spaces into a 3d sphere, it is a volume.  I didn't realize it at first either lol.  Was reading another post about armor calculations that mentioned it and I suddenly realized it was correct.

Sloanjh,

Your post answers my own issues with your theory.  I've even tried compensating by adding the armor to hull spaces, but that doesn't work any better than my current formula.

[Charlie Beeler]

Sorry, I don't distribute this speadsheet.  There are two primary reasons. 

The first being that it uses a direct extract from the database.  The second being that the extract is modified from the database.  The modifications are related to research cost for some of 1st level techs not the values for game component function.  Though in the past I have done that as well.

That and it is a constant work in progress.

The main reason that you're not matching the program has to do with the nature of how it is used.  Ths is build-to value not a floating total as the ship design screen functions.  I do it this way for a varity of reasons.  The main one is to find the compentent designs I need for a specific ship size/class without actually researching the wrong ones.  It also lets me reverse engineer ships I encounter as well as designs players post.

[Deedasmi (OP)]

I shall ask bluntly then.

When designing engines, how do I exactly compensate for the weight of the armor required to cover the extra size?

[Charlie Beeler]

By knowing what size of ship you intend to build.  It seems counter intuitive, but it really isn't.  It you use a design protocol of say 25% hs reserved for engines it's a simple matter of deciding how you wish to fill that volume.