Author Topic: Two-Stage Missiles - Sensor Boat Supported by PDC?  (Read 2132 times)

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Offline ChubbyPitbull (OP)

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Two-Stage Missiles - Sensor Boat Supported by PDC?
« on: August 01, 2012, 10:03:46 AM »
I'm developing a planet defense plan, and was curious about some nitnoids in designing a defense strategy around PDCs + small, fast, sensor support ships.

The idea is a planet would have a few PDCs hosting large missile launchers (The backstory being, converted Conventional Missile Silos launching TN Missiles), and a small fleet of small active sensor ships.  The ultimate flow is the sensor ships would locate and get an active sensor lock on an enemy target, and the PDCs would launch long-range drones containing 3-4 short range TN Missiles.  Once getting within separation range of the ships being tracked by the sensor boat, the drones would deploy their submunitions for a large salvo of TN missiles on the targets.

Is this feasible within the current mechanics? Does the PDC MFC need to be able to reach the targets, or can it fire at a waypoint? Can a MFC be put on the sensor boat to take over direction of either the drones, or the deployed submunitions? Or to do this at all do I need active sensors on both the drones and the submunitions, can only launch at a waypoint, and hope the targets blunder into the drone's path?
 

Offline Person012345

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Re: Two-Stage Missiles - Sensor Boat Supported by PDC?
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2012, 10:40:26 AM »
missile fire controls can be made smaller and longer ranged than sensors, so this is a viable tactic. You can't switch in-flight missile between fire controls though. I have a similar thing going on, my home planet has sensor FAC's that light up the target and combat FAC's that lack an active sensor and just use the other FAC's to spot for them to launch their missiles. My PDC's are fitted with long-range enough sensors to cover their entire range, because PDC's can be made much bigger and more expensive than ships (since they are built in factories there's not really a constraint there). But you could use ships to do the spotting instead. You will still need long enough range fire controls on your PDC, though as I say fire controls are considerably smaller for a given range.
 

Offline Redshirt

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Re: Two-Stage Missiles - Sensor Boat Supported by PDC?
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2012, 11:23:32 AM »
Keep in mind that active search sensors tend to paint a giant bullseye on anything that has them turned on, and unless your missiles also have sensors, they'll self-destruct if the spotter ship gets destroyed or has its sensors disabled.
Living up to my username. . .
 

Offline ChubbyPitbull (OP)

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Re: Two-Stage Missiles - Sensor Boat Supported by PDC?
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2012, 09:54:13 AM »
Quote from: Person012345 link=topic=5144. msg52574#msg52574 date=1343835626
You will still need long enough range fire controls on your PDC, though as I say fire controls are considerably smaller for a given range.

Roger that.  So say I have a Drone that travels 300m km, then when it's 4m km out from the target, it releases 3 4. 5m km range missiles to attack the target.  If neither the drone nor the missiles have their own sensors, the firing PDC has a Missile Fire Control capable of locking on to the target to a range of say 400m km, and an Active Sensor lock is maintained on the target throughout the entire life of the drone flight, will the missiles released by the drone lock on to the correct target and intercept?
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Two-Stage Missiles - Sensor Boat Supported by PDC?
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2012, 11:00:36 AM »
yes that will work fine.

i would still advise putting a sensor in the drone to protect against loss of target acquisition, or in the case that you drastically overkilled your target.
 

Offline Theokrat

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Re: Two-Stage Missiles - Sensor Boat Supported by PDC?
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2012, 11:37:47 AM »
I would like to point out that a 4m km separation range can be a bit on the short side. While it is true that a typical ASM is engaged within that range, your first stage drone is likely much larger than the typical ASM. Larger means quadratically easier to detect, so the drone could be targeted by AMMs much further out. Moreover, the Drone will likely be very very slow, which means AMMs have more time to engage it (and are more likely to hit) before it releases the submunition.

 

Offline Person012345

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Re: Two-Stage Missiles - Sensor Boat Supported by PDC?
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2012, 12:31:11 PM »
I -think-, although someone can correct me if I'm wrong, after a missile has been fired the MFC becomes irrelevant. So long as it had a lock when it fired and active sensor contat is maintained, they should hit their target. The MFC just has to have enough range to initially lock on and fire.

But I'm not at all sure about this. It could be completely wrong.
 

Offline ChubbyPitbull (OP)

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Re: Two-Stage Missiles - Sensor Boat Supported by PDC?
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2012, 01:25:20 PM »
i would still advise putting a sensor in the drone to protect against loss of target acquisition, or in the case that you drastically overkilled your target.

Roger that. Does the active sensor on the drone matter once it's released it's submunitions? Basically, as I understand it if a previous drone's missiles destroyed the target, a follow up drone that had not yet deployed it's submunitions could lock onto a new enemy it encounters. But if the drone releases it's submunitions and the target dies before they reach it, the submunitions would need active sensors to redirect, correct?



I would like to point out that a 4m km separation range can be a bit on the short side. While it is true that a typical ASM is engaged within that range, your first stage drone is likely much larger than the typical ASM. Larger means quadratically easier to detect, so the drone could be targeted by AMMs much further out. Moreover, the Drone will likely be very very slow, which means AMMs have more time to engage it (and are more likely to hit) before it releases the submunition.

I hadn't actually thought about the size of the drone actually. My current AMMs have a 1.8m km range (Ion Engines), so a 4m release point seemed like a good balance. The Size 4 submunitions seemed fairly optimal at 4.5m KM range with a strength 4 warhead, but I can see raising the range a bit.

On the subject of the separation range, is there a way to check that in a missile you've already researched? Loading the previous design in the Missile Design window gives a 150k km separation range for every missile, even ones I've confirmed through testing are actually at the correct numbers (0k km for my geo sensor drones, for example). I've already found that I forgot to put the correct separation range a few times, and a recent test fire of a 4m km separation drone showed that I must have forgotten again, as the drone didn't release it's munition until (it appeared around) 150k km.


Thanks for all the help all, by the way, sorry for the back-and-forth.
 

Offline Theokrat

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Re: Two-Stage Missiles - Sensor Boat Supported by PDC?
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2012, 02:06:32 PM »
I -think-, although someone can correct me if I'm wrong, after a missile has been fired the MFC becomes irrelevant. So long as it had a lock when it fired and active sensor contat is maintained, they should hit their target. The MFC just has to have enough range to initially lock on and fire.

But I'm not at all sure about this. It could be completely wrong.
I dont think so, due to the following examples which seem to show that you need a functioning MFC during the whole flight

  • If a ship is destroyed before its unguided missile reach the target, they loose lock-on, regardless of the presense of active sensors.
  • Same goes if a MFN on a ship is destroyed - the missiles loose lock-on
  • If a target moves out of the MFC range, you loose lock on
 

Offline Person012345

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Re: Two-Stage Missiles - Sensor Boat Supported by PDC?
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2012, 04:28:52 PM »
I dont think so, due to the following examples which seem to show that you need a functioning MFC during the whole flight

  • If a ship is destroyed before its unguided missile reach the target, they loose lock-on, regardless of the presense of active sensors.
  • Same goes if a MFN on a ship is destroyed - the missiles loose lock-on
  • If a target moves out of the MFC range, you loose lock on
Ok, fair enough. You're probably right.
 

Offline ChubbyPitbull (OP)

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Re: Two-Stage Missiles - Sensor Boat Supported by PDC?
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2012, 05:42:39 PM »
yes that will work fine.

i would still advise putting a sensor in the drone to protect against loss of target acquisition, or in the case that you drastically overkilled your target.

Additionally, if I add an active sensor to the drone, and it uses it's active sensor to find a new target after it's original is lost, do it's submunitions then need active sensors as well? For example, taking my drones with a separation range of 4m km. lets say I give it an active sensor that lets it detect targets within 5m km, and it locks onto a new target within 5m km. It then closes, and releases it's submunitions. Will the submunitions then intercept the drone's new target, or will the submunition then need sufficiently long-range active sensors of it's own to intercept the new target?
 

Offline Theokrat

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Re: Two-Stage Missiles - Sensor Boat Supported by PDC?
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2012, 12:53:58 AM »
Additionally, if I add an active sensor to the drone, and it uses it's active sensor to find a new target after it's original is lost, do it's submunitions then need active sensors as well? For example, taking my drones with a separation range of 4m km. lets say I give it an active sensor that lets it detect targets within 5m km, and it locks onto a new target within 5m km. It then closes, and releases it's submunitions. Will the submunitions then intercept the drone's new target, or will the submunition then need sufficiently long-range active sensors of it's own to intercept the new target?
the submunition would need a sensor as well