Critique this design please

[SteveAlt]

The sensor drone idea is brilliant, but how do you get it to work? I didn't realise you could launch missiles without giving them a target.

You can launch missiles at a waypoint. I have used sensor probes in a couple of campaigns and they can be very useful. You can fit active, thermal or EM sensors on a missiles and use them either in the recon probe role or to provide onboard guidance for the missile.

Here is a section from my last campaign.

With the future scout ship in mind, the idea of the Recon Drone has been taken a stage further. A Probe Launcher has been designed, which is a essentially a slow-firing, size 12 missile launcher. Active and Thermal probes are under development that will be fired by this launcher. The Active Probe has a much greater sensor range than the recon drone, albeit at a greater resolution, and can therefore be used both in the recon role but also to shadow a hostile contact from outside its likely anti-missile range. More useful will be the Thermal Probe, able to silently assess both planetary and space-borne contacts with far less chance of detection.

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Active Probe
Missile Size: 12 MSP  (0.6 HS)     Warhead: 0    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 9300 km/s    Endurance: 279 minutes   Range: 155.7m km
Active Sensor Strength: 4.2    Resolution: 50    Maximum Range: 2,100,000 km    
Cost Per Missile: 6.0667
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 93%   3k km/s 30%   5k km/s 18.6%   10k km/s 9.3%
Materials Required:    4.2x Uridium   1.8667x Gallicite   Fuel x15625
Development Cost for Project: 607 RP

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Thermal Probe
Missile Size: 12 MSP  (0.6 HS)     Warhead: 0    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 4000 km/s    Endurance: 651 minutes   Range: 156.3m km
Thermal Sensor Strength: 2    Detect Sig Strength 1000:  2000k km
Cost Per Missile: 2.8
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 40%   3k km/s 10%   5k km/s 8%   10k km/s 4%
Materials Required:    2x Uridium   0.8x Gallicite   Fuel x15625
Development Cost for Project: 280 RP

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Bauer class Scout    5000 tons     462 Crew     851.4 BP      TCS 100  TH 480  EM 0
4800 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 1-26     Shields 0-0     Sensors 80/24/0/0     Damage Control 0-0     PPV 6
Magazine 192    Replacement Parts 5    

J510 Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 5100 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
Scheiner SE-6 Magneto-plasma Drive (6)    Power 80    Efficiency 0.60    Signature 80    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 225,000 Litres    Range 135.0 billion km   (325 days at full power)

Probe Launcher (1)    Missile Size 12    Rate of Fire 1800
Probe Guidance System (1)     Range 150.0m km    Resolution 500
Thermal Probe (12)  Speed: 4000 km/s   End: 651 minutes    Range: 156.3m km   Warhead: 0    MR: 10    Size: 12
Active Probe (4)  Speed: 9300 km/s   End: 279 minutes    Range: 155.7m km   Warhead: 0    MR: 10    Size: 12

S210/100 Active Search Sensor  (1)     GPS 21000     Range 210.0m km    Resolution 100
T80 Thermal Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 80     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  80m km
E24 Electromagnetic Sensor  (1)     Sensitivity 24     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  24m km

Steve

[MWadwell]

The sensor drone idea is brilliant, but how do you get it to work? I didn't realise you could launch missiles without giving them a target.

The idea is Steve's - the design is just a modification of a design he had in one of his previous campaigns (he had the design in two campaigns, one where he used latin in the fiction titles (the 2084 campaign?), and I believe the other was the one based on the crusaders becoming the dominant power).

As to use, you fire them as per normal missiles (and so you need to be careful about their targeting), and you use waypoints to get the missile to "loiter". (At least, this is the way I think they work, it has been a while since I've played with them).

[Steve Walmsley]

Can a ship run at less than full power to decrease its thermal signature?

Yes, reducing speed will reduce the thermal signature at the same rate. So a ship with a thermal signature of 500 at full speed will only have a signature of 250 at half speed. You can also research thermal reduction tech for your engines. There are three ways to be detected. Active - which can be countered by cloaking technology, Thermal - which can be countered by thermal reduction tech or moving slowly, and EM - which can be countered by avoiding the use of active sensors or active shields.

Steve

[Steve Walmsley]

I have a question re. Mesons too: I noticed in the last combat I had, that Mesons don?t seem to hurt shields and don?t seem to do critical damage once the shields are down
(I get messages like: Ship XXX hit by Meson beams for 7 damage) but there was no info to the damage dealt, I get for other weapons, like "Parson NP Turbine destroyed after receiving 2 points of damage"

Mesons should ignore shields and armour. However they should only cause 1 point of damage each so there is definitely something strange going there. Do you still have the problem?

Steve

[Steve Walmsley]

Then I will have one or two fleet scouts (perhaps paired with an escort or two) with actives with twice the range of my longest range missile on the theory, that it can stay completely out of enemy weapon range while lighting up targets for my warships. That way, they won?t have to go active and give themself away.

This is a very useful tactic. Using scouts with long range sensors to light up targets is a very good way to allow small or otherwise hard-to-detect ships to launch their missiles without giving away their own position.

Steve

[Steve Walmsley]

Lasers are probably your best bet for a stand-off weapon (besides missiles). And in a pinch, the lasers can act as point-defense.

Everything else is big punch at low range.

The low-range, high power weapons are ideal if you can get close, perhaps by defending a jump point. Something I am considering is designing a race with a combat philosophy based on a high level of missile defence combined with fast, beam-armed ships.

Something else I have been considering is extending the range of some beam weapons. The problem is that light travels 1.5m kilometers during a 5 second increment, which places a limit on beam weapon range. As this limit is applied to highest tech levels, the low tech levels are correspondingly shorter. However, it occured to me that the basis of Aurora physics is that ships built with TN materials exist partially in a alternate dimension with physical laws different to our own, allowing much faster movement than would normally be allowed, turning as if in a liquid and no light speed restrictions on communication and sensors. So I asked myself if there are no no light speed restrictions on communication and sensors, why should there be light speed restrictions on beam weapons?

I'll give it some further thought

Steve

[Charlie Beeler]

Something else I have been considering is extending the range of some beam weapons. The problem is that light travels 1.5m kilometers during a 5 second increment, which places a limit on beam weapon range. As this limit is applied to highest tech levels, the low tech levels are correspondingly shorter. However, it occured to me that the basis of Aurora physics is that ships built with TN materials exist partially in a alternate dimension with physical laws different to our own, allowing much faster movement than would normally be allowed, turning as if in a liquid and no light speed restrictions on communication and sensors. So I asked myself if there are no no light speed restrictions on communication and sensors, why should there be light speed restrictions on beam weapons?

I'll give it some further thought

Steve

I've been hesitant to make this suggestion because I an idea of how much coding would have to done to support it for very little gain.  Track the actual path of a beam.  Alter the way that they difuse.  Perhap even account for a wider area being affected by a strong beam as it defuses.   I don't really think gains would be worth the effort.  Might as well add -delta-v movement mechanics for the level of effort involved.

Not that I'm against reaction movement, it has it's place.  And I'm aware of the complexity of the code too support.  I've always like the idea of setting a scout on a powered down ballistic course to get a really good look at something.  Along the lines of the light cruiser in Weber's "Short Victorious War".

[Hawkeye]

I have a question re. Mesons too: I noticed in the last combat I had, that Mesons don?t seem to hurt shields and don?t seem to do critical damage once the shields are down
(I get messages like: Ship XXX hit by Meson beams for 7 damage) but there was no info to the damage dealt, I get for other weapons, like "Parson NP Turbine destroyed after receiving 2 points of damage"

Mesons should ignore shields and armour. However they should only cause 1 point of damage each so there is definitely something strange going there. Do you still have the problem?

Steve

I haven?t had a combat involving Mesons since, but I might have to clarify something here.
I didn?t mean that a single Meson Beam dealt 7 damage, the enemy ship was hit by (if my memory serves me right) by 7 Mesons, dealing 1 point of damage each, but the damaged was "added up" in the report (at least that is what I think).

Messages I got (as far as I can remember):

Meson Beam targeted at enemy ship XXX -- hit (ship has shields up and there is no follow up report about any damage dealt, neither to the shields nor to the ship)

Meson Beam targeted at enemy ship XXX -- hit (enemy shields are down, so a follow up message is generated)

Enemy ship XXX hit by Meson Beam for 1 point of damage
(Usually, after this, a message about what system on the enemy ship is destroyed by that point of damage, but not so with mesons)

[Steve Walmsley]

I have a question re. Mesons too: I noticed in the last combat I had, that Mesons don?t seem to hurt shields and don?t seem to do critical damage once the shields are down
(I get messages like: Ship XXX hit by Meson beams for 7 damage) but there was no info to the damage dealt, I get for other weapons, like "Parson NP Turbine destroyed after receiving 2 points of damage"

Mesons should ignore shields and armour. However they should only cause 1 point of damage each so there is definitely something strange going there. Do you still have the problem?

Steve

I haven?t had a combat involving Mesons since, but I might have to clarify something here.
I didn?t mean that a single Meson Beam dealt 7 damage, the enemy ship was hit by (if my memory serves me right) by 7 Mesons, dealing 1 point of damage each, but the damaged was "added up" in the report (at least that is what I think).

Messages I got (as far as I can remember):

Meson Beam targeted at enemy ship XXX -- hit (ship has shields up and there is no follow up report about any damage dealt, neither to the shields nor to the ship)

Meson Beam targeted at enemy ship XXX -- hit (enemy shields are down, so a follow up message is generated)

Enemy ship XXX hit by Meson Beam for 1 point of damage
(Usually, after this, a message about what system on the enemy ship is destroyed by that point of damage, but not so with mesons)

I've found the problem. When I introduced the new armour system, I had to change the way that damage was applied. Once past the armour section of the damage code, the remaining damage was contained in a new variable called penetrating damage. Unfortunately, mesons didn't have to penetrate the armour so this variable was never set and remained at 0. It was a simple fix for the next version but it means mesons don't cause damage in v3.1

Steve

[Brian Neumann]

Something else I have been considering is extending the range of some beam weapons. The problem is that light travels 1.5m kilometers during a 5 second increment, which places a limit on beam weapon range. As this limit is applied to highest tech levels, the low tech levels are correspondingly shorter. However, it occured to me that the basis of Aurora physics is that ships built with TN materials exist partially in a alternate dimension with physical laws different to our own, allowing much faster movement than would normally be allowed, turning as if in a liquid and no light speed restrictions on communication and sensors. So I asked myself if there are no no light speed restrictions on communication and sensors, why should there be light speed restrictions on beam weapons?

I'll give it some further thought

Steve

Related to this is a problem at the high tech end.  A typical missle can travel at 200,000+ km/s giving beam point defence only one shot to stop it.  (200,000x5=1 million km/s)  As beam weapons only have a maximum of 1.4 million km range they can either fire in a long range mode or final defence mode.  They won't get both shots.  This means that missile defence becomes almost totally dependent on the counter missile defence.

Just to give an idea of how powerfull missles can be here is a basic size 4 missile

Missile Size: 4 MSP  (0.2 HS)     Warhead: 30    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 35
Speed: 200000 km/s    Endurance: 9 minutes   Range: 112.4m km
ECM Level: 5
Cost Per Missile: 25.5833
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 7000%   3k km/s 2310%   5k km/s 1400%   10k km/s 700%
Materials Required:    2.5x Corbomite   7.5x Tritanium   15.5833x Gallicite   Fuel x625

Development Cost for Project: 2558RP

[/code]

you can see how dangerous a small missile has gotten.

Another related problem is that the maximum track speed is currently 80,000km/s  which gives the maximum chance to hit one of these missile at 40%.  Put together this gives a poor chance for point defence to stop missiles.

Also related to tracking speed is a different problem.  The base tracking speed at maximum is 20,000 km/s.  At the high end tech, a typical warship speed is closer to 40,000.  This leads to vary bulky fire control for basic use.  I just don't feel that it is right for the ships to move so fast in comarison to a typical fire control system at the same tech level.

Brian

[Brian Neumann]

PS.  If you change the maximum range of beam weapons don't forget to change the range tech on the torpedo's

Brian

[Kurt]

I have a question re. Mesons too: I noticed in the last combat I had, that Mesons don?t seem to hurt shields and don?t seem to do critical damage once the shields are down
(I get messages like: Ship XXX hit by Meson beams for 7 damage) but there was no info to the damage dealt, I get for other weapons, like "Parson NP Turbine destroyed after receiving 2 points of damage"

Mesons should ignore shields and armour. However they should only cause 1 point of damage each so there is definitely something strange going there. Do you still have the problem?

Steve

I haven?t had a combat involving Mesons since, but I might have to clarify something here.
I didn?t mean that a single Meson Beam dealt 7 damage, the enemy ship was hit by (if my memory serves me right) by 7 Mesons, dealing 1 point of damage each, but the damaged was "added up" in the report (at least that is what I think).

Messages I got (as far as I can remember):

Meson Beam targeted at enemy ship XXX -- hit (ship has shields up and there is no follow up report about any damage dealt, neither to the shields nor to the ship)

Meson Beam targeted at enemy ship XXX -- hit (enemy shields are down, so a follow up message is generated)

Enemy ship XXX hit by Meson Beam for 1 point of damage
(Usually, after this, a message about what system on the enemy ship is destroyed by that point of damage, but not so with mesons)

I've found the problem. When I introduced the new armour system, I had to change the way that damage was applied. Once past the armour section of the damage code, the remaining damage was contained in a new variable called penetrating damage. Unfortunately, mesons didn't have to penetrate the armour so this variable was never set and remained at 0. It was a simple fix for the next version but it means mesons don't cause damage in v3.1

Steve

Hmmm...that would mean mesons are rather limited in 3.1 then.  I'll have to rethink their use.  

Kurt

[Michael Sandy]

I wonder if a dual drive system would make sense for a stealth focused ship.

A fuel efficient, stealthy drive for tooling around the system, and a highly inefficient, noisy drive system for closing fast once close enough.

[Brian Neumann]

I wonder if a dual drive system would make sense for a stealth focused ship.

A fuel efficient, stealthy drive for tooling around the system, and a highly inefficient, noisy drive system for closing fast once close enough.

As currently set up you can not have more than one type of engine.  Even if this was reduced, the mass penalty would be extreme.  All you need to do to reduce your thermal signature is to slow down.  Combine that with a decent thermal reduction tech and you have your stealth drive.

Brian

[waresky]

Steve,in 4.0 u setup a NPR Aliens ok? so pls careful when u test WEAPONS..otherwise the game come to an end very fast if some our weapons are bugged:)))))..
(example from Meson to new armor=0 damage:)))..)

My sensation are missile are very good testing from u..but some other weapons are very strange,Hyperwave for example,...what are the advantage to use it?