Post by: wildfire142 on October 20, 2006, 11:43:01 AM
Personally I think later in the game with bigger vessels one class could do both jobs but to start with two smaller classes works better.
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 20, 2006, 11:57:10 AM
Quote from: "wildfire142"
What is people opinions on survey vessels is it better to have one class that can do both geological surveys and gravitational surveys or is it better to have separate classes?
Personally I think later in the game with bigger vessels one class could do both jobs but to start with two smaller classes works better.
I am using separate vessels. The problem with a combined ship in cost terms is that half of the expensive sensors will always be inactive. However, a combined ship ship would be a lot more flexible.
Steve
Post by: wildfire142 on October 20, 2006, 12:01:52 PM
I intend to create a jump capable dual purpose survey ship at some point to see how it fairs.
Post by: vergeraiders on October 20, 2006, 02:37:56 PM
I'm satisfied thar generally the Geo ships need less speed than the Grav ships. The spend much more time making short trips between system bodies.
I have created a jump capable resupply ship. Its can jump escort the Hunters, but not the stalkers.
Mike S.
Hunter B class Science Vessel 2650 tons 230 Crew 989 BP Signature 53-207
3905 km/s Armour 1 Shields 0-0 Sensors 0/0/0/10 Damage Control 0-0
Supply 400
Ion Engine PB-15 AR-0 (3) Armour 0 Exp 16%
Advanced Geological Sensors (5) 10 Survey Points
Stalker B class Survey Ship 4850 tons 420 Crew 1627 BP Signature 97-483
4979 km/s Armour 1 Shields 10-300 Sensors 0/0/16/0 Damage Control 0-0
Supply 400
Ion Engine PB-15 AR-0 (7) Armour 0 Exp 16%
Advanced Gravitational Sensors (8) 16 Survey Points
Caravan class Jump Tender 3750 tons 400 Crew 708 BP Signature 75-414
5520 km/s JR 3-50 Armour 1 Shields 0-0 Sensors 0/0/0/0 Damage Control 0-0
Supply 3200
Ion Engine PB-15 AR-0 (6) Armour 0 Exp 16%
Post by: Michael Sandy on October 20, 2006, 03:05:52 PM
I like the idea of filling out the Jump Tenders space with Engineering systems, for more supply capability. How fast can Supply points be transferred? There is an indicator for how long it takes to load cargo holds and cryo tanks, but I do not recall where it says how long Supply points take to load.
I think it is crucial that at least one ship in a survey fleet have good sensors. Perhaps I am reading too much into the fate of the Terran Union jump tender, but I think the Jump Tender at least should have good sensors. After all, if someone wishes harm to the survey fleet they can either try to chase down very fast survey ships, loiter on the waypoints, or block the way out.
By putting decent active and passive sensors on the Jump Tender they have better chances of detecting a drive field down ambush at a warp point.
I do agree that the Jump Tender should be as fast as possible.
Post by: vergeraiders on October 20, 2006, 03:58:57 PM
Generically I agree - however I just found the first traces of another civilization so I hadn't much armed any of my exploration ships. That could change. I also didn't realize that active and passive sensors were not automatically included in my first round of designs, or even developed for that matter
I'm undecided about dedicated jump escorts for groups, though I think this will happen as ships star exploring farther from home. I'm finding out that exploration and survey goes much faster than colonization.
11 years (of which I spent the first 2 just researching and building, and 2 most inefficently exploring before I found the split command!) with 1 extra-solar colony but about 15 systems explored - one chain out to 5 jumps from the home system.
Survey jump tenders with supply is also a consideration, the one resupply ship is working ok for now - just another form of specilization - it doesn't need to be that fast as the average rate of travel of the survey squads is very small. And all my Jump Crusiers have 400 supply points so thay can serve as mini resupply points if needed.
6 ships is a very good number of ships in a grav survey squad.
Mike S.
Post by: wildfire142 on October 22, 2006, 04:04:40 AM
Warlock class Survey Cruiser 8000 tons 750 Crew 2316 BP Signature 160-528
3300 km/s JR 4-100 Armour 1 Shields 0-0 Sensors 12/9/8/8 Damage Control 0-0
Tractor 5 Supply 1600
Ion Engine Mk 1 PB-10 AR-0 (8) Armour 0 Exp 12%
Passive Sensor Mk 1 S3-12 (1) Strength 12 Detect Signature 10: 1.2m km Detect Signature 100: 12m km
Active Sensor Mk 1 S3-9 (1) Strength 9 Detect Size 10: 0.9m km Detect Size 100: 9m km
Advanced Geological Sensors (4) 8 Survey Points
Advanced Gravitational Sensors (4) 8 Survey Points
Post by: Michael Sandy on October 22, 2006, 11:52:10 AM
Also, I am not familiar with Jump Engine notation. That jump engine looks too small to move the ship, and a jump engine large enough to move that ship would be much more expensive.
Steve, can you put a warning in the software if you install a jump engine that is too small to move the ship it is installed in? I just checked. The design thingy gives no warning that the jump engine size is smaller than the ship size.
Post by: vergeraiders on October 22, 2006, 12:14:33 PM
Actually it would be nice if the JE design project automatically included the max tonnage it can handle in the design line.
It can be added by hand - but that will make it hard to compare designs.
I've taken to adding 5000 (or whatever) to the designation to show tonage.
Mike S.
Post by: wildfire142 on October 22, 2006, 01:20:16 PM
Quote from: "Michael Sandy"
This does not look like a cost efficient design.
Also, I am not familiar with Jump Engine notation. That jump engine looks too small to move the ship, and a jump engine large enough to move that ship would be much more expensive.
Steve, can you put a warning in the software if you install a jump engine that is too small to move the ship it is installed in? I just checked. The design thingy gives no warning that the jump engine size is smaller than the ship size.
The jump engine can handle up to 8000 tons which is why it's that size.
It may not be economic which is why I'm experimenting with designs. It's designed for long endurance missions of about 2-3 years between resupply.
Post by: Michael Sandy on October 22, 2006, 01:49:06 PM
There is no way to use grav sensors and geo sensors at the same time.
If you are finding that your survey ships are idle too much, perhaps you need more jump tenders.
If you send two size 75 jump tenders with your survey fleets you can have the grav survey in one system while the geo survey is in another.
If they are operating in the same system, you can run communications further back towards the homeworld. And you can probe two warp points at the same time, saving, potentially, on travel time for the survey ships.
I suspect that part of the problem isn't efficiency, it is bookkeeping. It is easier to keep track of dual-purpose survey ships and to give them orders. If the name of the ship clearly indicates its purpose, it will be easier to look up and give appropriate orders to it.
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 22, 2006, 01:49:15 PM
Quote from: "Michael Sandy"
This does not look like a cost efficient design.
Also, I am not familiar with Jump Engine notation. That jump engine looks too small to move the ship, and a jump engine large enough to move that ship would be much more expensive.
Steve, can you put a warning in the software if you install a jump engine that is too small to move the ship it is installed in? I just checked. The design thingy gives no warning that the jump engine size is smaller than the ship size.
The 4-100 in the notation shows a max of 4 ships in the squadron that can jump up to 100,000 kilometers from the jump point. There is no notation for the jump engine size as it is assumed the designer will add one large enough for the ship. The ship design window already has a warning if the jump engine is too small for the ship size.
Steve
Post by: Michael Sandy on October 22, 2006, 01:52:08 PM
The 4 ship squadron and 100,000 km jump distance are _definitely_ unnecessary expenses for a non-combat survey vessel.
Post by: wildfire142 on October 22, 2006, 04:06:47 PM
it may not be using both types of sensors at once but it will be using at least one most of the time. My normal useage is enter new system start some on mineral survey and some on jump point survey then move which ever finshes first on to the other, repeat on next system etc.
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 22, 2006, 04:13:48 PM
Quote from: "Michael Sandy"
Oh. I just double-checked, and yes, it gave the warning.
The 4 ship squadron and 100,000 km jump distance are _definitely_ unnecessary expenses for a non-combat survey vessel.
While that is true, each new jump drive you design costs research time so it can be better to design one jump drive and then use it for different ships, including some that may not make full use of its capabilities.
Steve
Post by: Michael Sandy on October 22, 2006, 04:21:42 PM
How do you organize your survey fleets? Go for concentrated survey efforts with all the survey ships in one fleet?
Lots of small survey ships that can disperse, go to the waypoints, and survey, or larger, more capable survey ships that can complete each waypoint faster?
I am at a loss as to how to do a mathematical comparison of the relative advantages.
By having a large number of small survey ships the ratio of survey cost to jump engine cost is good, but there are other considerations. Smaller ships spend more on armor. With the same payload/engine ratio, smaller ships will therefore be slower.
Trying to figure out how to quantify the problem:
Assuming a certain ratio of engines/survey instruments, the amount of time spent travelling from waypoint to waypoint will be the same whether dealing with one ship or multiple ships.
So what kind of ratio of time spent on waypoints to travelling should one shoot for? Do multiple ships spend a larger percentage of time travelling?
Compare, I dunno, one ship with 24 survey instruments and three with 8.
One ship flies to a waypoint, spends a third of the time the others do, then flies to the next. The three survey group gets three times the flight time covered at once, for the same amount of idle survey instrument time.
Of course, with more than three survey ships the total distance travel does increase.
Sheer wild-ass guessing, two survey ships are definitely better than one, three is somewhat better, and beyond six it gets more inefficient.
Post by: wildfire142 on October 22, 2006, 04:42:35 PM
Post by: Michael Sandy on October 22, 2006, 04:59:54 PM
And for the size ship involved it is the difference between a size 42 jump engine that costs 441 BP and a size 32 jump engine that costs 256 BP.
And the research project cost for the small jump engine is 1200 RP.
Hmmm. Running the numbers, I found something weird:
Comparing the size 15, size 20 and size 30 jump engines, the ratio of Sorium to Duranium was all over the map.
The prototype Jump Engine lists at 50 tons Sorium, 50 tons Duranium. However, with any researched version of the jump engine, the ratio is 4 to 1, Sorium to Duranium, or 80 tons Sorium, 20 tons Duranium.
Also checking the costs, I find that Jump Engines below size 20 actually make up only a small amount of a Jump Cruiser's cost.
Post by: Michael Sandy on November 12, 2006, 09:15:29 PM
Which is better, 2-3 larger survey vessels with survey commanders or a host of 6 smaller survey vessels?
What are good sizes for survey vessels, and what is the best balance of speed and survey instruments?
Post by: Brian Neumann on November 13, 2006, 05:11:53 AM
I also have been using power boosted engines on non combat ships. It can make a major difference in their speed once the power boost is over 10%.
Survey 50 class Cruiser 2500 tons 255 Crew 831 BP Signature 50-288
5760 km/s Armour 1 Shields 0-0 Sensors 0/0/6/0 Damage Control 0-0
Supply 1400
Ion Engine PB-20 AR-0 (4) Armour 0 Exp 20%
Advanced Gravitational Sensors (3) 6 Survey Points
The Jump ships for survey operations tend to be larger. Sized for the smallest jump engine (usually a 60, sometimes a 75). They also have one survey instrument so they can be given the same default order of surveying locations without constantly going back to change the default after splitting the fleet.
Post by: Michael Sandy on November 13, 2006, 09:55:18 AM
I suppose the same factor results in the Survey ships staying out longer, using up more supply, rather than coming home to be overhauled? Ease of management?
Post by: wildfire142 on November 13, 2006, 03:06:51 PM
Post by: Michael Sandy on November 13, 2006, 03:33:15 PM
Steve said supply could be stored in Cargo Holds as well. So an Atlas Jump Cruiser could have 4000 supply in those holds. As Cargo Holds are significantly cheaper than Engineering sections, all you would need would be a standard order that whenever the Survey fleet is all together (as they would be when probing a new system), they draw supply from the Jump Cruiser.
Of course, that could be tedious bookkeeping if it could not be automated.
Post by: wildfire142 on November 13, 2006, 03:39:27 PM
Post by: Michael Sandy on November 13, 2006, 03:46:41 PM
Quote from: "wildfire142"
Missed the point that supply could be stored in cargo holds, can you draw supplies from your own cargo holds to resupply yourself I wonder?
Dunno. Probably not for things like Damage Control. And it would take unloading time, as anything having to do with the Cargo Hold does.
I started to say, "When you start getting 10,000 BP ships, perhaps they will have a Cargo Hold for longer endurance". But if you are building a 10,000 BP ship you probably have a much higher BP/HS ratio, so paying more for the Engineering systems is worth it, as that affects how much Damage Control you can do, too. Plus, the extra HtK is worth it, along with not having to worry about a lucky shot dumping 2000 Supply points into space.
Post by: Brian Neumann on November 13, 2006, 11:34:50 PM
Quote from: "Michael Sandy"
Interesting idea. Building not necessarily for efficiency for ease of management.
I suppose the same factor results in the Survey ships staying out longer, using up more supply, rather than coming home to be overhauled? Ease of management?
Actually the idea was that they would be able to go out farther from their primary base and still get a worthwhile bit of survey done. If it takes three months to reach the current border or explored space and then they start surveying, they would already have gone through over half of what 1 engineering space can carry. It also allows them to be used in an emergency to supply combat units.
I have noted that with the power boost these ships tend to be almost twice as fast as the warships are.
Brian
Post by: Erik L on November 14, 2006, 09:28:41 AM
Essex XSGe class Cruiser 5950 tons 530 Crew 1415 BP Signature 119-250
2100 km/s Armour 1 Shields 0-0 Sensors 0/0/0/12 Damage Control 0-0
Supply 2200
Nuclear Thermal Engine PB-0 AR-0 (10) Armour 0 Exp 5%
Advanced Geological Sensors (6) 12 Survey Points
Essex XSGr class Cruiser 5950 tons 530 Crew 1415 BP Signature 119-250
2100 km/s Armour 1 Shields 0-0 Sensors 0/0/12/0 Damage Control 0-0
Supply 2200
Nuclear Thermal Engine PB-0 AR-0 (10) Armour 0 Exp 5%
Advanced Gravitational Sensors (6) 12 Survey Points
And the jump cruiser that escorts them.
Lexington JC class Cruiser 7450 tons 710 Crew 1363 BP Signature 149-225
1510 km/s JR 3-50 Armour 1 Shields 0-0 Sensors 0/0/0/0 Damage Control 0-0
Supply 4200
Nuclear Thermal Engine PB-0 AR-0 (9) Armour 0 Exp 5%