critique my warships now i-fusion

[joeclark77 (OP)]

I've encountered some aliens (apparently precursors) in a system next to Sol.  I'd like to kill them, so these below are my initial designs for ion-tech warships.  I have shipyards that can build 9000t, 7000t, 3000t and 1000t, so I'm choosing my sizes from those.

To be honest, actually, this is my second set of designs.  The first fleet I sent out was five of a do-everything cruiser called the Wolf class.  In addition to launching anti-ship missiles it did its own point defense with a laser turret.  The turret and its fire control were so huge, however, I could only fit one on each cruiser and at the expense of armor and engines.  In the first battle, my ASMs proved quite capable of destroying enemy ships.  However, my laser turrets couldn't stop all the incoming fire, and something with longer range sensors than my ships started firing volleys of 19x strength-7 missiles which destroyed us.

The new lineup starts with a redesigned Wolf that has thicker armor, a higher top speed, and no laser turret:

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Wolf Mk 2 class Cruiser    9,000 tons     175 Crew     1195.4 BP      TCS 180  TH 540  EM 0
3000 km/s     Armour 8-38     Shields 0-0     Sensors 6/6/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 30
Maint Life 2.76 Years     MSP 249    AFR 216%    IFR 3%    1YR 47    5YR 706    Max Repair 32 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 270    

60 EP Military Ion Drive (9)    Power 60    Fuel Use 85.5%    Signature 60    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 850,000 Litres    Range 19.9 billion km   (76 days at full power)

S5-R75 Missile Launcher (6)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 75
Missile Fire Control FC57-R100 (1)     Range 57.6m km    Resolution 100
ASM Spike 5A (54)  Speed: 12,000 km/s   End: 187.3m    Range: 134.8m km   WH: 9    Size: 5    TH: 44/26/13

Active Search Sensor MR19-R100 (1)     GPS 3200     Range 19.2m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH1-6 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  6m km
EM Detection Sensor EM1-6 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  6m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

Since my missile tech is better than my energy tech, I'm now providing anti-missile defense with AMMs and I created a destroyer to carry a whole mess of them.  Incidentally, the alien ships can make 4607km/s and I don't know if I can say anything about their missile speed.  They've used size 3 (WH7) missiles against me, as well as using some kind of AMM in offensive mode.  The Jackal class:

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Jackal class Destroyer Escort    6,950 tons     128 Crew     995 BP      TCS 139  TH 420  EM 0
3021 km/s     Armour 9-32     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 20
Maint Life 2.6 Years     MSP 179    AFR 193%    IFR 2.7%    1YR 37    5YR 559    Max Repair 32 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 0    
Magazine 320    Cryogenic Berths 200    

60 EP Military Ion Drive (7)    Power 60    Fuel Use 85.5%    Signature 60    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 600,000 Litres    Range 18.2 billion km   (69 days at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher 15sR (20)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 15
Anti-Missile Missile Fire Control FC1-R1 (4)     Range 1.4m km    Resolution 1
AMM Dart-1A (320)  Speed: 21,000 km/s   End: 16.8m    Range: 21.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 91/54/27

Missile Search Sensor MR1-R1 (1)     GPS 32     Range 1.9m km    Resolution 1

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

That's really the main battle line.  I also have a light carrier which serves as a jump tender for the other ships, but it doesn't have enough fuel to get to the battlefield and back.  Therefore I plan to mainly use it for Sol system defense until I have a dedicated jump tender and can upgrade the design.  Just for info, though, here it is:

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Lion class Light Carrier    9,000 tons     165 Crew     1024.2 BP      TCS 180  TH 480  EM 0
2666 km/s    JR 3-50     Armour 4-38     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 0
Maint Life 2.56 Years     MSP 285    AFR 162%    IFR 2.2%    1YR 61    5YR 916    Max Repair 114 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Flight Crew Berths 18    
Hangar Deck Capacity 2000 tons     Magazine 300    

J9000(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 9000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3
60 EP Military Ion Drive (8)    Power 60    Fuel Use 85.5%    Signature 60    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 7.0 billion km   (30 days at full power)

ASM Spike 5A (60)  Speed: 12,000 km/s   End: 187.3m    Range: 134.8m km   WH: 9    Size: 5    TH: 44/26/13

Strike Group
5x Rebel Fighter   Speed: 3750 km/s    Size: 8


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Rebel class Fighter    400 tons     2 Crew     63.8 BP      TCS 8  TH 30  EM 0
3750 km/s     Armour 1-4     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 3
Maint Life 55.54 Years     MSP 100    AFR 1%    IFR 0%    1YR 0    5YR 1    Max Repair 16 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 0.1 months    Spare Berths 8    
Magazine 20    

15 EP Ion Fighter Drive (2)    Power 15    Fuel Use 155.65%    Signature 15    Exp 12%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres    Range 1.4 billion km   (4 days at full power)

Size 5 Box Launcher (4)    Missile Size 5    Hangar Reload 37.5 minutes    MF Reload 6.2 hours
Fighter Missile Fire Control FC20-R50 (1)     Range 20.3m km    Resolution 50
ASM Spike 5A (4)  Speed: 12,000 km/s   End: 187.3m    Range: 134.8m km   WH: 9    Size: 5    TH: 44/26/13

I'm not sure what's the best way to deal with the fact that the enemy's active sensors have much longer range than mine.  I could design a much larger sensor, or alternatively try to design a fast sensor fighter or sensor FAC.  Currently my plan is to just bring so much AMM defense that I can battle through their missiles and get into range.  I'm thinking six of Wolf Mk 2 and six of Jackal should about do it.  I'll be getting magneto-plasma drives about the time those would roll out of the shipyard.

Any thoughts?

[Lothang]

First : I don't have much experience in fighting, so do what you want with my answer. 

I had to deal with the same enemy. 

I believe your ships are to slow : alien ships can fly away and this is bad.  Your speed is capped to 2666 (Lion class).  Even your fighter can't run after an alien ship.  Tip : You can save some fuel by designing bigger engines (240 EP)
I remember, alien missiles are very fast 15000 km/s in my case.  And you detect them at a very close range.  You should boost your AM sensor. 
A salvo of 20 AMM will only destroy 5 or 6 missiles, and I fear you wouldn't have the time for an other salvo.  That's why I use 10 cm laser turrets. 

My modest suggestion : one Jump-Active sensor ship with big sensor and lot of armor so your wolf cruiser could have more fire power. 

And you can reduce the time deployement to 12 months.

Finally, re-read my first sentence. . .

[joeclark77 (OP)]

I believe your ships are to slow : alien ships can fly away and this is bad.  Your speed is capped to 2666 (Lion class).  Even your fighter can't run after an alien ship.

Thanks for the tips.  I'm not actually using the Lion or its fighter in combat unless then enemies close in on the jump point, so my fleet of Wolves and Jackals can make 3000m/s.  Still not enough to catch the enemy, but I don't think I need to.  They're defending a certain planet and if I approach the planet I don't think they'll try to kite me.  

Six of my Jackals together can fire 120 AMMs every 15 seconds (or about 40 every 5 seconds) and the enemy's volleys seem to be 19 missiles each.  So I think I do have enough AMMs, although it's an open question how many volleys the enemy can fire before running out.

By the way my laser turret had 12000km/s tracking speed (with matching fire control) and my lasers were hitting maybe 2/3 of incoming missiles that they fired at.  So the weapon worked fine but it was just too massive and I couldn't carry enough of them to match the size of enemy volleys.

I'm thinking of training up gauss cannons and designing CIWS for future ships.

[JacenHan]

The speed is good for Ion tech vessels, and the designs all seem sound to me.  The only critique I have is to suggest a new class of fighter with less box launchers (maybe 1-2) and much higher speed to match your slower, more heavily armed Rebels.

[Hawkeye]

Your ships look decent over all.

As JacenHan suggests, design a larger engine to improve fuel efficiency as well as power output (you can get away with a higher power modificator on a larger engine while still improving fuel efficiency)

For the Jackal, put the saved mass into a larger AMM Fire Con. You want to start to engage enemy missiles as far out as possible (at least 2 million km). To target a size-6 or smaller missile at 2mkm, you need a res-1 Fire-Con with a range of 18.5 mkm.

I would also half the fuel supply on the Spike 5A ASM. It has twice the range as your Missile Fire Control. Put the saved mass into missile engines (i.e. design a new, somewhat larger one) as your missiles seem to be pretty slow (sitting ducks for point defense) and/or agility. Expect the enemy to move at least at 5.000 km/s which means only one out of four of your current ASMs will hit (if it survives point defense fire)

Same goes for the Dart-1A. Way too much range. Drop the fuel supply to 0.02, put the mass into agility. Expect enemy missile with speeds of up to 30.000 km/s (I am not shure if the bug, which made AI use horribly slow missiles is fixed).

If at all possible, increase mag space on your Jackal, you will burn through your ASM supply as there is no tomorrow

The rate of fire of your missile launchers is pretty bad.
Personally, I consider missile launcher reload rate 3 to be the minimum needed. This would give your ASM a ROF of 10 and your ASM a ROF of 50 seconds.


You need a dedicated sensor ship with
1) a large res-1 sensor, so you can spot enemy missiles further out. This will let you engage inbound missiles several times on the way in and
2) a large anti-ship active, you you can see the enemy as far out as your missiles reach
Note: the bigger the better. The further out you can spot the enemy the sooner you can decide if you want to engage or run.
3) (Optional) a large anti-FAC sensor (res-16 to 20) to spot hostile FACs

Something like this (albeit I am at Magneto-Plasma tech)

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Flower Mk. IV class Fleet Scout    8,000 tons     176 Crew     1643.6 BP      TCS 160  TH 912  EM 900
5700 km/s     Armour 5-35     Shields 30-300     Sensors 28/33/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 0
Maint Life 2.38 Years     MSP 514    AFR 128%    IFR 1.8%    1YR 124    5YR 1856    Max Repair 210 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 0   
Cryogenic Berths 400   

Parsons Type 228 Military Magneto-Plasma Drive (4)    Power 228    Fuel Use 44.86%    Signature 228    Exp 9%
Fuel Capacity 550,000 Litres    Range 27.6 billion km   (56 days at full power)
Vickers Type Delta/2.5 Electromagnetic Shield (12)   Total Fuel Cost  180 Litres per hour  (4,320 per day)

Barr & Strout Type 253/120 Radar System (1)     GPS 25200     Range 253.0m km    Resolution 120
Barr & Strout Type 92/16 Radar System (1)     GPS 3360     Range 92.4m km    Resolution 16
Barr & Strout Type 23/1 Radar System (1)     GPS 210     Range 23.1m km    Resolution 1
Watson-Watt Type 20 Thermal Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 28     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  28m km
Watson-Watt Type 33 EM Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 33     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  33m km

ECM 10

[joeclark77 (OP)]

Thanks, Hawkeye.  My experience in battle was pretty much as you predicted.  They started launching anti-missile missiles at me, and those came so fast that my AMMs couldn't intercept them.  (At least I think that was the problem.  Maybe I didn't have my fire controls set up right.)  Also I couldn't see them until they were right on top of me.  My armor could take a lot of volleys of damage-1 missiles, but when I approached the enemy PDCs they started firing 74x AMMs every 5 seconds and I had no defense.

Now I have magpulse tech and am researching two new, much longer range sensors.  I want to be able to use my ASMs from farther out (rather than reduce the missile fuel!) and to be able to see those AMMs before they hit me.

Can anyone tell me how to set up fire control(s) for an AMM ship like my jackal?  Do you need one fire control for every missile that the ship is going to target, or just one fire control period?  I set four firecontrols to five launchers each, told them to send two rockets after each missile, checked "auto fire" and unchecked "synchronized fire".  My AMMs were being launched but never hit the enemy AMMs probably because I didn't see them in time.

[Hawkeye]

Open the Battle Control Window (F8)

Select the ship you want to work on.

Select the/one of the Firecons

Assign missile launchers to the selected firecons (shift-click works here).
For AMM work, 3 to 5 launchers per firecon work well

Assign missiles to the launchers (you can select the missile you want and hit "Assign All" to assign that missile to every launcher you have)

Select how many AMMs you want to shoot at every enemy missile (0 to 5). As long as you don´t know how fast the enemy missiles are, 2 to 3 is usually good, adjust as needed when in combat.

Note: If you have beam _and_ missile firecons, make sure you have the range at which you want to engage the enemy missiles set correct.
Aurora keeps the range setting from the first firecon in the list. So if your first firecon is a 96.000km beam firecon, it will set your AMM firecon with a max. range of 5 million km to 96.000 km as well --> CHANGE THAT!

After you are done with that ship, hit the "Copy TG", "Copy System" or "Copy Race" button in the "Copy Assign" Thingy (Right Center) to copy that setup to all ships of the same class in the same TG, System or your entire race.
Rinse - Repeat for every ship class you have.

Your ships will now automatically launch the specified number of AMMs at every enemy missile coming into the specified range if they are seen.

Note: Enemy missiles are engaged on a per-salvo basis, i.e. you shoot at the enemy salvo, not at single missiles (except if the entire salvo is only a single missile)

Ouch! Don´t use Autofire. Autofire is what the AI uses. Steve has made that button available to us, but it will mess up your fireplans all the time, asigning your AMM launchers for offensive fire for example, and leaving your ships helpless in the face of incoming enemy missiles.

[joeclark77 (OP)]

OK, got it.  If I have multiple AMM ships in my fleet, will they coordinate so that only the specified number of AMMs are fired at each volley (i.e. the number of incoming x2 or x3, whatever I specified)?

And, what's the function of having multiple fire controls on an AMM ship?  Is it just for redundancy's sake, or will the separate groups of launchers duplicate what the others are doing or something?

Third question: what's a good beam weapon to use for defense against super-fast AMMs?  I think I may want not want to bet the next fleet entirely on my AMM ability.

I still have shipyards of 9000, 7000, 3000, and 1000 tons, so I'm trying to think if there's a way that I can use one of the smaller shipyards to make something that can help support my next version Wolf and Jackal classes.  Perhaps a little dedicated sensor ship or a beam PD platform.  Advice?

[Hawkeye]

1) Aurora keeps track of _all_ launched AMMs. Only the specified number of AMMs will be fired at any hostile missile, no matter which ship launches them, even combining AMMs from different ships.

2) Every firecon can only engage one hostile salvo per 5 second tic. When there are several (many) salvos inbound, you want to engage all of them as fast as you can.

3)
Low tech, railguns are pretty good, because each shot is actually 4 shots (think of it as a spaceborn shotgun. They cant´t be put into turrets though, so their tracking speed sucks.
Because your tracking technology sucks in the early game anyway, this isn´t so bad and the 4 bullets per shot make up for this somewhat.

Gauss Cannons, once you research level 3 or 4 in rate of fire, surpass rails easily, as they now shoot 3/4 shots per 5 seconds too, but can be put into turrets (and don´t need power plants to boot). Once you research even higher levels of ROF they are the ultimate point defense guns.

Laser Cannons are not a prime PD wespon IMO, but are reasonably good _and_ can serve in an offensive role as well, pulling double duty, which makes them good.

Meson Cannons are very, very good vs. heavily armored missiles, as the meson beams bypass any armor, leading to: one hit - one kill.
For un-armored missiles, they are simmilar to laser cannons, just with a lot less range.
Of course, once in range, they bypass all shields/armor, so might be good for anti-ship work close in.


My personnel "to-go-to" PD gun is the gauss cannon, simply for its great ROF.
If I want versatility, I usually go with laser cannons.

4) A 3.000 ton corvette with a tripple/quadrupple half-size gauss cannon turret should be possible.
Not sure you get enough space for a dedicated sensor ship in a 3.000 ton ship (This ship will stand out like a sore thumb, with all those sensors running and you do _not_ want to skimp on armor on that one)

Note on CIWS:
CIWS only protect the ship they are mounted on, while regular turrets, set to "Area Defense" or "Final Defense" defend the entire TG. Therefore, as soon as 3+ ships with CIWS are in a TG, you would be better off with mutually supporting turrets.

[joeclark77 (OP)]

Gauss Cannons, once you research level 3 or 4 in rate of fire, surpass rails easily, as they now shoot 3/4 shots per 5 seconds too, but can be put into turrets (and don´t need power plants to boot). Once you research even higher levels of ROF they are the ultimate point defense guns.

That was my thought, too, and I have been researching them.  However, I'm concerned about range.  Would they even be able to get a shot off at spoiler AMMs?  Might those pass through the gauss cannon's range in under 5s?

4) A 3.000 ton corvette with a tripple/quadrupple half-size gauss cannon turret should be possible.
Not sure you get enough space for a dedicated sensor ship in a 3.000 ton ship (This ship will stand out like a sore thumb, with all those sensors running and you do _not_ want to skimp on armor on that one)

In this case is it better to have one triple-size turret or 2-3 single-size?

regular turrets, set to "Area Defense" or "Final Defense" defend the entire TG.

On that note: which should my PD fire controls be set to? Area defense or final defense?

[Charlie Beeler]

If you've invested in "Max Tracking Time Bonus vs Missiles" and have capacitor 3, then 10cm railguns out perform turreted gauss cannons with rof 4 or less in a hullspace for hullspace comparison.  This assumes that both are using 4hs BFC's.  (4x speed for GC 4x range for RG)

Final defense does not need any added range, the heavy work is done by the sensors.  As long as you can see the missiles at range you will always have a chance to shoot.

[Charlie Beeler]

If I', reading your ships correctly, your current sensor tech is thermal 6, AG 16, EM 6.  That makes your AMM sensor 2hs and the AMM MFC is .5hs.  Way too small.  You can only detect sz6 missiles(and smaller) at 209k/km and target at 156k/km. 

[Hawkeye]

Twin, tripple and quadrupple turrets receive a small bonus to total mass. For this alone, I would go with multi-barrel turrets. Of course, a heavy hit can take out all your pd capability at once, where multiple single-barrel turrets provide some redundancy
- your call

I never use area defense within a single TG

Area defense engages missiles as soon as they come into range and keep firing at them until they hit or are destroyed.
While this sounds good, the catch is, that at long range, your chances to hit are abyssimal. And there is a good chance your guns will not be able to fire again before the enemy missiles hit, pretty much rendering your PD ineffective.

Final Defense on the other hand only fires at range 10.000 km (as Charlie said, the range of the guns doesn´t matter, they will _allways_ fire at 10.000 km) but only once. I seem to remember that, to get better performance than final defense overall, you have to be able to get off three shots in area defense mode (I think Charlie or Erik did the math).

There are ways to use Area Defense.
For example, if you split some beam PD ships off your main TG and put them in front and to the side, you can set them to area defense on the assumption, that the enemy will go after the brightly lit sensor ship and the huge battleships in the main TG. The escorts will then attempt to thin out the enemy missile salvos as they pass by.

[Erik L]

(I think Charlie or Erik did the math).

Charlie I'd say. I sometimes have trouble adding 2 and 2 to get 5 like it's supposed to.

[joeclark77 (OP)]

Here is the next generation fleet.  Due to the larger sensors and fire controls I had to reduce the number of launchers on the AMM destroyer Jackal.  However, they have much more range and should actually be able to hit something this time.  Upgrading to a new armor technology allowed me to keep the same number of launchers on the ASM cruiser Wolf.  Also note the missiles are upgraded to magnetoplasma, too. 

The new "Fox" class provides the support of a single gauss turret.  I know the fire control doesn't track as fast as the turret, oh well, something to think about for next time.  (I really need a sensor scientist and an energy weapon scientist...)

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Wolf Mk 3 class Cruiser    9,000 tons     197 Crew     1552 BP      TCS 180  TH 720  EM 0
4000 km/s     Armour 8-38     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 30
Maint Life 2.59 Years     MSP 323    AFR 216%    IFR 3%    1YR 68    5YR 1015    Max Repair 160 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 390   

80 EP Military Magneto-plasma Drive (9)    Power 80    Fuel Use 85.5%    Signature 80    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 950,000 Litres    Range 22.2 billion km   (64 days at full power)

Size 5 Missile Launcher Mk 2 (6)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 50
Wolf 3 Missile Fire Control FC193-R180 (1)     Range 193.2m km    Resolution 180
ASM Spike-5B (78)  Speed: 16,000 km/s   End: 140.4m    Range: 134.8m km   WH: 11    Size: 5    TH: 58/35/17

Active Search Sensor MR132-R190 (1)     GPS 30400     Range 132.3m km    Resolution 190

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

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Jackal Mk 2 class Destroyer Escort    7,000 tons     160 Crew     1345 BP      TCS 140  TH 560  EM 0
4000 km/s     Armour 5-32     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 12
Maint Life 1.54 Years     MSP 240    AFR 196%    IFR 2.7%    1YR 116    5YR 1738    Max Repair 240 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 372   

80 EP Military Magneto-plasma Drive (7)    Power 80    Fuel Use 85.5%    Signature 80    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 550,000 Litres    Range 16.5 billion km   (47 days at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher 10sR (12)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
Jackal 2 Missile Fire Control FC23-R1 (2)     Range 23.0m km    Resolution 1
AMM Dart-1B (320)  Speed: 28,000 km/s   End: 12.6m    Range: 21.1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 121/72/36

Active Anti-Missile Search Sensor MR14-R1 (1)     GPS 240     Range 14.4m km    Resolution 1


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Fox class Frigate    3,000 tons     60 Crew     417 BP      TCS 60  TH 240  EM 0
4000 km/s     Armour 3-18     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 23.4
Maint Life 1.54 Years     MSP 87    AFR 72%    IFR 1%    1YR 42    5YR 629    Max Repair 105 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 1   
Cryogenic Berths 200   

80 EP Military Magneto-plasma Drive (3)    Power 80    Fuel Use 85.5%    Signature 80    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 14.0 billion km   (40 days at full power)

Twin Gauss Cannon R2-100 Turret (1x4)    Range 20,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 2    ROF 5        1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fox 1 Fire Control S06 24-12000 (1)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 12000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0