how to design an energy fleet?

[joeclark77 (OP)]

My previous games, I've always gone very heavy on missiles with energy weapons only for anti-missile defense and as a backup weapon rarely used.  In a current game I'm now trying to figure out the opposite side of the coin: how to design an energy-only order of battle.  Could anyone share their designs or insights?

One of the problems I need to deal with right away is that my enemies may be very fast.  One alien ship I encountered is 9000T, goes just under 6000km/s, and has lasers with range of about 350kkm.  It's early game, I have ion tech, and I can't match that energy range at all.  I was thinking that meson-armed fighters might be the best way to go, hopefully fast enough so the enemy couldn't hit them as they entered range, but I can't figure out how to get one that small.  So now I'm thinking maybe reduced-size lasers are the ticket.  I haven't tried particle beams, carronades, railguns, or gauss guns as an offensive weapon.  I am also thinking about adding a medium-sized ship armed with microwaves and mesons (these seem to have the same progression in terms of range, size, and power) for disabling ships.  The fleet will also need anti-missile defenses and a sensor ship, and a jump ship.  I'd appreciate any suggestions.

[mckamx]

When going up against higher tech and faster ships, I tend to use beam-armed Corvettes.   Basically, this is a super-sized FAC (~2500tons): no defenses, one long range beam weapon (you need to have a longer beam range than your opponent or the Corvette is toast), and as many engines as needed to be faster than your opponent.   These corvettes work find against unarmed and beam armed opponents.   For missile armed opponents, the only solution I have come up with is to send in a fleet with strong point defenses, and let my opponent come to me.

[sublight]

The enemy you described sounds like it has a 2-level tech advantage. The enemy probably has a fire control speed matching the ship speed, so it is extremely unlikely that you can go fast enough to reduce its hit rate below 50%. I'm sure it has multiple weapons, so it is going to score at least one hit every time it fires. As you close deeper into the laser range the shots will probably start to kill a small craft every time it fires.

Options:
A) Ignore it until you have better tech.
B) If if tries to maintain an optimal range of 100-175k km then build heavily armored particle beam cruisers, let it come to you, and then open fire.
C) If it doesn't conveniently enter your range resign yourself to using a massed swarm of small attack craft. Looses will be heavy, but with enough quantity it can be overwhelmed.


For reference here are two of my fast ion-era designs.

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Gryphon class Interceptor    1,000 tons     31 Crew     174.8 BP      TCS 20  TH 130  EM 0
6500 km/s     Armour 1-8     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 3
Maint Life 5.57 Years     MSP 55    AFR 16%    IFR 0.2%    1YR 3    5YR 45    Max Repair 32.4 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Spare Berths 2   

64.8 EP Ion Drive (2)    Power 64.8    Fuel Use 121.97%    Signature 64.8    Exp 13%
Fuel Capacity 70,000 Litres    Range 10.3 billion km   (18 days at full power)

10cm Railgun V3/C3 (1x4)    Range 30,000km     TS: 6500 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire-Control Theta (1)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 6000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0
Small Gas Reactor (1)     Total Power Output 4.5    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Huntsman (1)     GPS 84     Range 3.0m km    Resolution 5

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

The Gryphon is the only ion-era ship I've made that traveled at 6,000+ km/s. It was railgun armed so it could provide additional Point Defense fire when with the fleet. It fell a little short of expectations: if it stayed with the fleet until after missile impact the attackers usually managed to escape, and if it got too far ahead and entered enemy missile range first then the fragile speedster would be obliterated. It might make a fair starting point.

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Spruance class Fighter    498 tons     27 Crew     61.7 BP      TCS 9.95  TH 36  EM 0
3618 km/s     Armour 2-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 4
Maint Life 10.45 Years     MSP 19    AFR 7%    IFR 0.1%    1YR 0    5YR 5    Max Repair 9 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 1 months    Spare Berths 3   

18 EP Ion Drive (2)    Power 18    Fuel Use 190.97%    Signature 18    Exp 15%
Fuel Capacity 10,000 Litres    Range 1.9 billion km   (6 days at full power)

R6/C2 Meson Cannon (1)    Range 60,000km     TS: 3618 km/s     Power 4-2     RM 6    ROF 10        1 1 1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0
Target-Lock FTR (1)    Max Range: 64,000 km   TS: 6000 km/s     84 69 53 37 22 6 0 0 0 0
FTR Fast Reactor (1)     Total Power Output 2.25    Armour 0    Exp 5%

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

The Spruance was one of my more successful meson fighter designs, also of the ion-era. Getting the Spruance clone up to the necessary speed would require upgrading the engine power multiple up to 1.75x, downgrading the weaponry to a 3-HS 10cm version, and using the saved space to add a 3rd engine. You may also consider mixing in a few microwaves to take out the enemy fire controls.

[niflheimr]

If you cut down the engineering to a few months ( the tiniest engineering space ) and the deployment time to 0.1 months you might get enough for another engine . Reducing the FC range to 32k would work too , it's a point blank design anyway.

I usually go with a single engine on my fighters with the maximum power multiplier I have though.

Getting in energy range of those guys might hurt though - they pack up to 30 lasers or particle beams , so at Ion level you will need to outnumber them massively. Suicidal microwave-fitted LACs or fighters should do the job as well - just make sure you have enough to disable the ship.

Later on you can try reduced sized lasers on LACs - I've found that they can be quite effective in wolfpacks , especially if you had the time (20+ years) to research cloaking devices for them. A 1500 tonne stealthed lack can get very close before being detected since the AI rarely keeps their active on all the time - just throttle the engine to get reduced signature as you get closer.

With a 93% cloak and 16% thermal reduction I was able to get within 450k km from a spoiler before being detected - and 4-5 layers of armor are enough to get them the rest of the way in. Once you have 15 35 cm lasers firing their 36 damage shot that spoiler ( or NPR ) is toast.

[SteelChicken]

I found that a horde of meson armed, IFR-reduced fighters to be reasonably effective, but they die like flies.

[joeclark77 (OP)]

I'm used to using 250T missile fighters, so a 500T ship doesn't even feel like a "fighter" to me, more like a small FAC.  I think this particular enemy simply has too great a range for me to deal with right now.  Fortunately, they're a spoiler race that won't be doing any further research, so I will be able to outrange them in time.  I guess I'd really like to develop my energy doctrine for generic opponents, not this one in particular, because one day I'd like to do a multi-faction role playing start and in that case the two opponents will have similar tech levels.

It seems that speed and stealth will be key technologies to focus on, and weapon range.  Which energy weapons is it easiest to achieve long range with?

Another question: How do mesons for anti-missile defense compare to say, gauss cannons or railguns?  I take it those are the three best options aside from AMMs.

[niflheimr]

Quite decent in final fire mode - they ignore armor on the bigger missiles if the NPR ever gets to use them or you play multiple races.

Range wise , lasers will give you the biggest range , but particle beams give more effective range since the damage doesn't decrease with range. You will outrange the FCS for sure with lasers though.

[MagusXIX]

I love energy weapon doctrine.  I'm a very defensive player, though.  I typically will only ever put jump engines on my grav survey ships (and potentially covert ops ships.)  I keep the entirety of my force on /my/ side of jump gates and swat anything that jumps through them with plasma carronades.  I keep carriers stocked with gauss fighters on standby in case anything manages to leak through my gate camps, and patrolling FACs/Frigates along my trade routes looking for any alien covert ops.

The trick to the energy weapon game is to play very defensively, and use carriers for range.

[TallTroll]

Bit of a necropost, but 6.3 adds a new element, spinal mounts. Using a test db with maxed out tech allows this monster

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Shark class Corvette    5 000 tons     181 Crew     27525.5 BP      TCS 100  TH 4125  EM 900
82500 km/s     Armour 15-26     Shields 30-300     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 35     PPV 10
Maint Life 4.32 Years     MSP 18064    AFR 38%    IFR 0.5%    1YR 1555    5YR 23327    Max Repair 17719 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months    Spare Berths 1   

8250 EP Photonic Drive (1)    Power 8250    Fuel Use 66.21%    Signature 4125    Exp 25%
Fuel Capacity 750 000 Litres    Range 40.8 billion km   (5 days at full power)
Omega R300/360 Shields (2)   Total Fuel Cost  30 Litres per hour  (720 per day)

31cm C25 Far Gamma Ray Laser (1)    Range 1 050 000km     TS: 82500 km/s     Power 25-25     RM 12    ROF 5        25 25 25 25 25 25 25 25 25 25
Fire Control S09 525-75000 H10 (1)    Max Range: 1 050 000 km   TS: 75000 km/s     99 98 97 96 95 94 93 92 91 90
Vacuum Energy Power Plant Technology PB-1.25 (1)     Total Power Output 25    Armour 0    Exp 20%

Compact ECCM-10 (1)         ECM 100
It's 33% engine with a 250% power boost, so few ships will be faster (FACs and fighters can top 100km/s of course), and 40b km range is fine. The Adv. Spinal Mount allows a 31cm laser with exactly 25 damage, conveniently the max capacitor rating. The 25 rated output power plant is tiny, but a bit explodey - fortunately there is room for 30 points of shields, and no less than 15(!) layers of armour, so digging deep enough to get the reactor is quite a task. Same for the single engine, explodey but lots of power

With 4 years of endurance, it can operate with a picketing fleet, although it's a bit thirsty for active patrolling, and of course it has no active sensors at all, so it has to operate with some sort of sensor support. It's essentially a 5000 ton fighter with some legs. It is a bit vulnerable to shock damage, but then it should be causing it too. The max repair cost is huge, meaning it has lots of eng spaces, but you *really* don't want this thing breaking down, it's hideously expensive at nearly 30k tons of minerals and BP. Most of the cost is that brute of a fire control, but you need it to make the gun worth having

At max tech. it's an extreme example, but you can do similar things with lower tech, of course. Also, if you went up in weight you could add some secondary batteries, add some fuel etc, but speed is one of its' primary assets. Note that although it doesn't have max beam range, it can go from outside beam range to inside it's own max range in either 1 or 2 ticks, depending on the total closing velocity. As it stands, it's a very pure example of the "eggshell armed with a sledgehammer" school of energy design

[alex_brunius]

It's essentially a 5000 ton fighter with some legs.

...

As it stands, it's a very pure example of the "eggshell armed with a sledgehammer" school of energy design

Max tech is hilarious. A 15 armor layered (+30 shields) 5000 ton fighter "eggshell armed with a sledgehammer"...

I find this contradiction very funny

[Brian Neumann]

I will add my two cents worth of thoughts for beam armed doctrine.  The first point is you are going to need to research a lot in the beam fire control speed, capacitor tech, engine tech, and beam fire control range, in that order.  Primary weapons are going to need to be effective against missiles which translates into mesons, lasers or possibly rail guns.  I would research gauss cannon rate of fire as well if you have the lab capacity.  Lasers and mesons both make good point defense weapons in turrets, and they are effective weapons against ships as well.  Rail guns had the rate of fire to compensate for not being turreted, but with the changes in 6.3 and shock damage I think they just lost some of the appeal.  For a given size railgun the damage is going to drop off faster than the lasers, have less shock damage, and generally be shorter range.  Mesons work well as you generally don't need to develop the larger size weapons (a 30 or 35 cm meson can easily max your fire control ranges at any comparagle tech) and will cause internal damage whenever they hit.  They also ignore armor on missiles which can be a big attraction with player controlled empires.  Lasers are generally longer ranged and their damage goes up nicely.  The downside is of course that they need to get through shields and armor to inflict any damage.

All weapons that can be turreted will need to be turreted.  You are going to need to use your primary big guns against missiles until you can get into range of the actual ships.  It also make them more effective at shooting down fighters or FAC's that are energy armed when they try to close.  To make a beam armed doctrine work overall you need fast ships that can shoot down lots of incoming missiles.  The biggest threat to them would be carrier based missile attacks.  This is because each fire control can only target one incoming missile salvo.  With fighters firing missiles this translates to 1-2 missiles per salvo.  For defensive puposes this also means that you are going to need about 1 point defense fire control (x4 speed) for every 4 turreted weapons.  I often go for triple or quad turrets with 1 fire control per turret because of this.  You won't need as many long range fire controls as most targets will need a lot more shots to be taken out of the fight.  For light ships (destroyers, cruisers, etc.) I often only have a single fire control (x4 range). For capital ships I will often have 1 long range fire control for every 4 turrets, and on really big ships will often invest is a maxed out fire control (x4 range and speed)

If you end up getting decent particle beam (pb) range tech then they make for a great secondary weapons system.  Light ships often do not have the space for effective long range weapons, the particle beam changes this a even a small pb can reach your effective max fire control range.  I would not however make this your primary beam weapon as it will not do so well in the point defense roll.

For point defense there are a couple of options.  If using mesons then just use the 10cm mesons to get the most possible shots.  The range difference is not often going to matter with them.  For light ships where you want a dual purpose weapon then the 15cm meson will work fairly well.  It is only 1 hull size larger (3 vs 4 hull size) and has twice the range.  For lasers the extra range and damage of the 15cm laser is worth the fewer total shots you can get.  If using rail guns then you will need 10cm rail guns for point defense.  An effective alternative to the rail guns would be gauss cannon and they are in the same research field so that might work out fairly well.

Hope this helps anyone looking for ideas on beam only doctrine.

Brian

[Narmio]

Another option is the "beam-only offence" doctrine, meaning missile tech is researched only as a way to provide an AMM umbrella that can thin out the incoming waves a little.

The other thing to note is that NPRs use their own AMMs offensively annoyingly often, and small missile spam being what it is that is devastatingly effective. Having a few close-ranged (6-10mkm) offensive missiles, possibly armoured, can keep their attention off your smaller ships while you close. 

It's not "pure" beam doctrine, but it is essentially the use of missiles wholly in the support of a beam-based fleet.