Passive two stage missiles?

[Mayne (OP)]

I am trying to make a long range two stage missile for use against raiders.  The idea is that I would fire the first stage at a waypoint and then the thermal tracking second stage would do the rest.  Instead, the 2nd stage just stays at the waypoint until it runs out of fuel.  I have tried this with actives and then thermals on the 2nd stage, and also with both on the 1st stage and have not found a way to make this work.  I have tried deleting the waypoint after firing after reading that somewhere to no success.

Interestingly, using the "Launch Ready Ordnance" command makes them function as short-lived mines where the 2nd stage tracks and attacks targets as expected, so that's something I suppose.

Am I missing something and this is WAI? Or is this a bug?

[nuclearslurpee]

It may help to share your missile designs, including separation distance for first stage. Multiple-stage missiles have historically been a bit buggy but also easy to set up incorrectly so it's hard to tell which is the case here without more detail.

[Mayne (OP)]

It may help to share your missile designs, including separation distance for first stage.  Multiple-stage missiles have historically been a bit buggy but also easy to set up incorrectly so it's hard to tell which is the case here without more detail.

2nd Stage Active - this is 2nd stage payload.  I have also tried a thermal sensor version with the same results.

Code: [Select]

Missile Size: 4.5000 MSP  (11.25000 Tons)     Warhead: 4.000    Radiation Damage: 4.000
Speed: 27,911 km/s     Fuel: 268     Flight Time: 110.2 seconds     Range: 3,075,803 km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.84   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 8
Resolution: 1    Maximum Range vs 50 ton object (or larger): 1,462,545 km
Cost Per Missile: 5.4839     Development Cost: 370
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 279.1%   3k km/s 93%   5k km/s 55.8%   10k km/s 27.9%
I have tried multiple types of 1st stages so I will just post a few:

Cruise Active 0 Separation

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Missile Size: 9.000 MSP  (22.5000 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0
Speed: 14,378 km/s     Fuel: 1,518     1st Stage Flight Time: 51 minutes    1st Stage Range: 43.97m km
2nd Stage Flight Time: 110 seconds    2nd Stage Range: 3,075.8k km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.49   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 8
Resolution: 1    Maximum Range vs 50 ton object (or larger): 1,117,037 km
Cost Per Missile: 9.5029     Development Cost: 487
Second Stage: 2nd Stage Active x1
Second Stage Separation Range: 0 km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 143.8%   3k km/s 47.9%   5k km/s 28.8%   10k km/s 14.4%

Cruise Thermal 150 Separation

Code: [Select]

Missile Size: 9.00 MSP  (22.500 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0
Speed: 14,378 km/s     Fuel: 1,518     1st Stage Flight Time: 51 minutes    1st Stage Range: 43.97m km
2nd Stage Flight Time: 110 seconds    2nd Stage Range: 3,075.8k km
Thermal Sensor Strength: 0.3    Detect Sig Strength 1000:  4,330,127 km
Cost Per Missile: 9.1989     Development Cost: 479
Second Stage: 2nd Stage Active x1
Second Stage Separation Range: 150,000 km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 143.8%   3k km/s 47.9%   5k km/s 28.8%   10k km/s 14.4%

Cruise No Sensor 0 Separation

Code: [Select]

Missile Size: 9.0 MSP  (22.50 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0
Speed: 16,778 km/s     Fuel: 2,768     1st Stage Flight Time: 94 minutes    1st Stage Range: 94.98m km
2nd Stage Flight Time: 110 seconds    2nd Stage Range: 3,075.8k km
Cost Per Missile: 9.2589     Development Cost: 481
Second Stage: 2nd Stage Active x1
Second Stage Separation Range: 0 km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 167.8%   3k km/s 55.9%   5k km/s 33.6%   10k km/s 16.8%


[DeMatt]

As I understand it, if you wanted a missile that did this:

• Cruise to a waypoint,
• Loiter at the waypoint,
• Attack the first detected enemy.

...then you'd need a THREE stage missile:

• Booster stage:  fuel + engine, no sensor, separation = 0 (or maybe <5 seconds flight time to account for sim inaccuracy).
• Sentry stage:  no fuel or engine, any (powerful enough) sensor, separation = attack range.
• Attack stage:  fuel + engine, any (powerful enough) sensor.

If you're using a minelaying ship, you could skip the booster stage by having the minelayer do the "navigate to waypoint" part of the job.

[Snoman314]

As I understand it, if you wanted a missile that did this:

• Cruise to a waypoint,
• Loiter at the waypoint,
• Attack the first detected enemy.

...then you'd need a THREE stage missile:

• Booster stage:  fuel + engine, no sensor, separation = 0 (or maybe <5 seconds flight time to account for sim inaccuracy).
• Sentry stage:  no fuel or engine, any (powerful enough) sensor, separation = attack range.
• Attack stage:  fuel + engine, any (powerful enough) sensor.

If you're using a minelaying ship, you could skip the booster stage by having the minelayer do the "navigate to waypoint" part of the job.

I think the point is that the loitering at the waypoint is undesired behaviour. The second stage should use it's sensors to lock on the nearby enemy and engage them.

BTW I've got nothing to add to this thread so far, besides that I've tried to figure this out a few times before and really wish I could make it work.

[Mayne (OP)]

As I understand it, if you wanted a missile that did this:

• Cruise to a waypoint,
• Loiter at the waypoint,
• Attack the first detected enemy.

...then you'd need a THREE stage missile:

• Booster stage:  fuel + engine, no sensor, separation = 0 (or maybe <5 seconds flight time to account for sim inaccuracy).
• Sentry stage:  no fuel or engine, any (powerful enough) sensor, separation = attack range.
• Attack stage:  fuel + engine, any (powerful enough) sensor.

If you're using a minelaying ship, you could skip the booster stage by having the minelayer do the "navigate to waypoint" part of the job.

I think the point is that the loitering at the waypoint is undesired behaviour. The second stage should use it's sensors to lock on the nearby enemy and engage them.

BTW I've got nothing to add to this thread so far, besides that I've tried to figure this out a few times before and really wish I could make it work.

Yes, the ideal behavior would be:

• Cruise to waypoint
• 2nd stage activates and attacks the first detected enemy with on board sensors

I see how having a three-stage missile like DeMatt suggested would work too and sometimes be preferable. You would need two sets of sensors (one for the 2nd stage and one for the 3rd), but also get some flexibility to use it as a mine you could set from long range.

I decided to make a two-stage missile with no sensors that will be guided by a scout fighter's active sensors instead, but I may try out a three-stage mine laying type of thing for contested systems as well.

Thanks for the answers.

[boolybooly]

You dont need sensors for the third stage.

The second stage buoy needs sensors (be sure to check no engine) for which I use active because that guarantees detection range reliably above a given hull size e.g. R10 = 500t typically >1m km depending on sensor tech.

The separation range for the buoy determines the distance to target at which the payload missile launches, the expected AS detection range needs to be at least equal, or more to counter ECM.

Bear in mind the target could flee so the missile flight range needs to be more than the separation range by approx missile max flight time times target speed.

I use minelayers which "launch as ready ordnance" static buoys, with active sensors and second stage payload. The payload is targeted by the buoy sensor so the missile does not need sensors unless there is a risk of the target being destroyed before the missile reaches it and you want it to redirect itself. Typically a minefield launches in one go and so the missiles all hit simultaneously and there is no intervening turn in which the missile can redirect.