Nemesis Campaign - Comments

[MWadwell]

The oldest boy was doing a write up of his section (the USN) of the campaign on the Starfire site, but he has moved out of state (?country - he's rather poor at calling home) and I don't know how much he has done on it.  The USN section of it was around 40 +/- turns in when he left, with over 120 turns of history in the Empires Campaign.  I have limited access to the Starfire site so I can't say just what he has put together.

Is your son "drakar" (~20 years old and in the Army - according to the SDS website)? If so, then he had put up 9 chapters (last posting put up in June 2010), and his website can be found here: http://newempirescampaign.yolasite.com/

Unfortunately it looks as if he hasn't posted anything recent - as his last posting was about an ambush where he lost 3 (of 7 CTa's) when transiting into a nebula defended by Cetian BCa's/DDfa's/DDa's/BS0's.

Later,
Matt

[procyon (OP)]

Yep.  He left a few months after that.
He was alot farther along in the campaign than that.  That was actually only about 25+/- turns in as I remember.  He got LUCKY on that one!  I was sure he was going to lose his whole fleet to that ambush, but he pulled it out in amazing fashion.  Talked about it for weeks.  The Cetians eventually were crushed by the USN.

He was tied down in battles with another race and it was dragging out through a string of nebulii. (?? spelling).  He had just managed to capture a system of the enemy's with a colony in it and was hoping to finally get some intel on this race that constantly hit his supply ships but disappeared before the warships could arrive.

[MWadwell]

Yep.  He left a few months after that.

Do you know if he (or anyone else in your family) put up any other fiction somewhere else? It's an amazing campaign, and I was just wondering if there was more available....

He was alot farther along in the campaign than that.  That was actually only about 25+/- turns in as I remember.  He got LUCKY on that one!  I was sure he was going to lose his whole fleet to that ambush, but he pulled it out in amazing fashion.  Talked about it for weeks.  The Cetians eventually were crushed by the USN.

Yeah - when I looked at the opposing forces, I'm surprised that he only lost 3 ships - as he was outmassed by ~4 to 1!


Later,
Matt

[procyon (OP)]

So far the oldest boy and I are the only writers of the group.  My wife if my proofreader when I can get the chance to run it past her first, but that doesn't always happen before I post it.

As for the New Empires, it is probably one of the most intracate campaigns I have ever put together. The only fiction on it is from drakar.  I write up scenarios on a small corner of my wife's portion (The Sunset Saga/Trials of the Wolff).  I truly wish I had the time to write it up in a fiction format - but it would be immense.  It easily dwarfs the Nemesis Campaign several times over, and spans a much longer history.  In turns played the wife and middle boy have passed 200 with the Empires/New Empires combined.  
Sadly I write about the Sunset part because it is such a limited arena.  The wife and kids have played it so long they are also wrapped up in the story.  It is neat when my wife asks me if it would be appropriate to place one admiral in a command over another not based on grade, but on the threater of operation and task forces they have commanded.  Or if there are rules for putting one of her ships that has been in service for the entire 200+ turns into a museum setting because she can't bring herself to upgrade the old girl.
Or of the hate she openly showed when another one of her ships that dates back to turn one and was lost when the WPs closed shows up in the service of the race that inhabited the system it was lost in - as they stumbed into Chinese held space as refugees following the destruction of their homeworld by a race that had once been an ally of the Euro.  And of the middle boy shifting forces badly needed to face a devastating campaign he has been fighting against an AI splinter just to deal with this erstwhile ally - with extreme prejudice.

It's an incredible story.  But it's one I don't have time to write.....

PS.  I do have a semi reliable way onto the SDS site now, and I am glad to see that you are reposting the Pheonix Campaign.  I loved going to the old site that had the Pheonix/Terran Camp's and reading the material there.  Bravo for making sure those works weren't lost.

[MWadwell]

So far the oldest boy and I are the only writers of the group.  My wife if my proofreader when I can get the chance to run it past her first, but that doesn't always happen before I post it.

As for the New Empires, it is probably one of the most intracate campaigns I have ever put together. The only fiction on it is from drakar.  I write up scenarios on a small corner of my wife's portion (The Sunset Saga/Trials of the Wolff).  I truly wish I had the time to write it up in a fiction format - but it would be immense.  It easily dwarfs the Nemesis Campaign several times over, and spans a much longer history.  In turns played the wife and middle boy have passed 200 with the Empires/New Empires combined.  
Sadly I write about the Sunset part because it is such a limited arena.  The wife and kids have played it so long they are also wrapped up in the story.  It is neat when my wife asks me if it would be appropriate to place one admiral in a command over another not based on grade, but on the threater of operation and task forces they have commanded.  Or if there are rules for putting one of her ships that has been in service for the entire 200+ turns into a museum setting because she can't bring herself to upgrade the old girl.
Or of the hate she openly showed when another one of her ships that dates back to turn one and was lost when the WPs closed shows up in the service of the race that inhabited the system it was lost in - as they stumbed into Chinese held space as refugees following the destruction of their homeworld by a race that had once been an ally of the Euro.  And of the middle boy shifting forces badly needed to face a devastating campaign he has been fighting against an AI splinter just to deal with this erstwhile ally - with extreme prejudice.

It's an incredible story.  But it's one I don't have time to write.....

Which is a shame, as (to me) the best types of fiction are ones where you get emotionally involved in the story. I mean, I can remember Fuchida from Steve's Rigeillan campaign after all of these years, or Gwynxa (sp?) from the end of Kurt's campaign (both of these from over 5 years ago now) - and yet I have trouble remembering what I had for lunch.... 

PS.  I do have a semi reliable way onto the SDS site now, and I am glad to see that you are reposting the Pheonix Campaign.  I loved going to the old site that had the Pheonix/Terran Camp's and reading the material there.  Bravo for making sure those works weren't lost.

Happy to help Kurt's campaigns get out there - as they (the Terran/Phoenix Campaigns) are an amazing piece of work....

Later,
Matt

[procyon (OP)]

This latest post (Nov part 2) holds probably the biggest issue I have with SF, and probably all other games in the genre. 

It is a convention of the genre that we manage to gain communication with an alien species, and usually fairly quickly.  I realize that without it, any game would lose a lot of its flavor and options.

But in reality, I doubt that we could ever achieve communication with an alien species.  Perhaps in a most basic way, but not more than what we can get across to any other animal on earth.  And with those animals we share a great deal in common.  Something from a different world, with most likely a different chemistry, sensory apparatus, etc.   
Nope, we just aren't going to do much talking.  Might not even be able to figure out what communicating was to them.

[Charlie Beeler]

This latest post (Nov part 2) holds probably the biggest issue I have with SF, and probably all other games in the genre. 

It is a convention of the genre that we manage to gain communication with an alien species, and usually fairly quickly.  I realize that without it, any game would lose a lot of its flavor and options.

But in reality, I doubt that we could ever achieve communication with an alien species.  Perhaps in a most basic way, but not more than what we can get across to any other animal on earth.  And with those animals we share a great deal in common.  Something from a different world, with most likely a different chemistry, sensory apparatus, etc.   
Nope, we just aren't going to do much talking.  Might not even be able to figure out what communicating was to them.

Grub for poundering...  H Beam Piper's "Omnilingual".  It's a short story he wrote in the 50's that is relevent.  I believe that it is available on the Project Gutenberg (sp) website.

[Brian Neumann]

Grub for poundering...  H Beam Piper's "Omnilingual".  It's a short story he wrote in the 50's that is relevent.  I believe that it is available on the Project Gutenberg (sp) website.

  I tend to disagree with you on this.  While I doubt we would ever get the level of communication seen in fiction, It should be possible to work out a level of language similiar to the pidgin trade languages.  Very limited and for specific purposes normally, but enough to get a basic level of communication going.  It probably would however take years if not decades to get to that point however.  The main reason I say this is any intelligent race is going to be trying to understand us in all probability.  When you work a problem from both ends it tends to be much easier to solve than only working from one end.

Brian

[Charlie Beeler]

  I tend to disagree with you on this.  While I doubt we would ever get the level of communication seen in fiction, It should be possible to work out a level of language similiar to the pidgin trade languages.  Very limited and for specific purposes normally, but enough to get a basic level of communication going.  It probably would however take years if not decades to get to that point however.  The main reason I say this is any intelligent race is going to be trying to understand us in all probability.  When you work a problem from both ends it tends to be much easier to solve than only working from one end.

Brian

Before discounting you might want to read the story.  Omnilingual is about deciphering a dead written language found in an ancient ruin.  At least getting a form of Rosetta Stone.  Granted not a good example for the discussion.

A better one is also from Piper, Naudsonce (1957).  It does deal with finding a common ground for communicating with an alien race. 

In both cases Piper demonstrates that obstacles can be overcome.

[Charlie Beeler]

Omnilingual  http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19445/19445-h/19445-h.htm

Naudsonce  http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19076/19076-h/19076-h.htm

[procyon (OP)]

We may have to agree to disagree on this one.  From where I stand, it just looks real far fetched.

As I said, we have yet to communicate with any form of life on earth after thousands of years together.
As for the other species wanting to communicate - I know my dog wishes he could tell the kids when he needed to go out rather than hope they notice him by the door.
We've been sharing living space with dogs for a VERY long time.
I realize they have taught chimps a few words of sign language, but this is about as close to our own species as you can get.  And we still don't have real communication with them.

We will have more in common with the living fossils found in the deep sea trenches than we will with any alien species we meet.  The odds of us talking to octopi are pretty slim.  They do seem to communicate and are very intelligent.  But our environments are terribly different, and my ability to change color is limited (unlike an octopus) - which seems to be a part of their communication.  And we share a planet, most of our genetic structures are identical, etc.

As an example from my story, a race basing much of its biology on manipulating EM fields is a plausible hypothesis.  Many basic chemical combinations would allow for it.  The thought that you might need an atmosphere to make a sound with to convey information would be incredibly alien to a race that lived in vacuum.  Why waste energy agitating molecules of a gas around you.  It is such a limited form of expression when you could transmit information instantly through nearly any medium.  Even most solid ones.  And this is a race I dreamed up as a Chem E/Physics project while I was in college.  To steal a phrase, an alien isn't likely to be far differenent from what we imagine, but far different from what we CAN imagine.

Nope.  So far despite the best attempts of many brilliant minds over decades, perhaps centuries, simple inter-species communication has eluded us.  Inter-racial communications would be an order of magnitude more difficult.

And that assumes the aliens even want to talk to us.

But thanks for the links to the stories.  I always enjoy something to read if I'm stuck in the nursery on a night with nothing but healthy babies.  Sometimes this can just be the best job in the world.

[MWadwell]

We may have to agree to disagree on this one.  From where I stand, it just looks real far fetched.

What's that book - "Men are from Mars, women are from some other planet.....  "

[Charlie Beeler]

Oh I agree that we disagree on the subject. 

I will whole heartily agree that the game mechanics in every game I've dealt with for inter-species communications is way over simplified and fast.

What I will disagree with is that communication with a non-terrestrial species is impossible.  We have no baseline to make such a universal statement. 

The lack of Terran inter-species communication isn't really a valid argument.  There is some level of communication with higher level primates (ex. chimpanzees, gorilla's) using sign.  The real roadblock is that there doesn't appear to be any other species on this planet that actively uses language for conveying complex ideas.  Neither primates nor cetaceans (much less canines) have any appearance of social groups above hunter/gatherer much less a species level of language for complex idea exchange.

But, and this is a big one, if we encounter a species that has risen above hunter/gatherer subsistence there is a chance that communication is possible.  The higher the rise the greater the chance.  The more things the two have in common the higher the chance grows (ex vocal language y/n, overlapping vocal range y/n, overlapping visual spectrum y/n, written language y/n, etc etc etc)

There is a huge caveat here.  Both species must be working together to find the common ground, if it is one sided it is most likely hopeless. 

In the case of the Nemotians I highly doubt, under the campaign constraints, that communication is possible.  Extremely different interpersonal means of communication.  Open warfare.  No cooperative effort to find a means to communicate.

[Charlie Beeler]

Erik,  It might be advisable to split the inter-species communications related portions of this to an new thread,  in off-topic perhaps.  I know that my part in this has deviated far from being ontopic for the Nemesis campaign.

[procyon (OP)]

I'm going to try and get at least part of this next installment put up tonight.  My problem is that I am not on my regular unit tonight.  The only work station I have access to has no mouse, ports, etc. Only notepad to type in.  Spell checking will just have to happen later.  In fact it took awhile to remember the keys for copy/paste.  But I'm stuck here for the whole night with nothing else to do but work on typing up my outline - mostly.