Lagrange Points and Intra-system Jumps

[SteveAlt (OP)]

In version 3.1, every super-jovian has a Lagrange Point sixty degrees behind it in its orbit. This is really the L5 Lagrange Point and I am ignoring the other four because this one will work best from a gameplay perspective. As the planet orbits the star, the Lagrange Point orbits with it. As some systems may have multiple super-jovians, they will also have multiple Lagrange Points (LP). These LPs act as mini-jump points within their system. Because jumps from LPs are to destinations within the same system, the gravitational stresses are far less than for an interstellar jump point and therefore a ship does not require a jump engine to use LPs. Any ship can make an intra-system jump from one LP to any other LP in the same system, even one orbiting a different star within the system. When you select an LP as a movement destination, you will get a list of possible intra-system jump destinations in the popup box where teams or commanders are selected.

The LPs are shown on the map simply as LP1, LP2, etc. In the Task Group window they are shown next to the planet whose orbit they share. So you might see Jupiter Lagrange Point as a destination. When you add intra-system jump orders, the name of the planet sharing the orbit is listed. So an order may read Intra-system jump to Jupiter Lagrange Point. Because these are intra-system rather than interstellar jumps, there is no scattering on arrival.

This will allow a little more flexibility in movement within a system, perhaps giving easier access to a good source of minerals but, unlike regular jump points, they move over time. They could allow access to distant companion stars without the need for hyper-drive if those stars are also orbited by a superjovian. They may also provide a source of conflict and confrontation, both for their access to the resources of distant stars and perhaps as an avenue of attack if their orbit brings them close to inhabited worlds. Any ships or bases that are in the same location as the Lagrange Points will orbit with it, just as if there were in orbit of a planet.

Steve

[Erik L]

Do they need to be surveyed? Or are they known automatically? Can they be used without knowing the Jump Point Theory (I.E. you can develop grav survey instruments w/o JP Theory).

[SteveAlt (OP)]

Do they need to be surveyed? Or are they known automatically? Can they be used without knowing the Jump Point Theory (I.E. you can develop grav survey instruments w/o JP Theory).

No, they don't need to be surveyed as their location can be predicted by the location of the superjovians. Interesting point though about whether you would even realise about the jump ability without jump point theory. I'll give that some thought.

BTW, in v3.0, I think you do need jump point theory to develop grav survey instruments.

Steve

[Erik L]

BTW, in v3.0, I think you do need jump point theory to develop grav survey instruments.

Steve

Yes you do

[Kurt]

<snip>

This will allow a little more flexibility in movement within a system, perhaps giving easier access to a good source of minerals but, unlike regular jump points, they move over time. They could allow access to distant companion stars without the need for hyper-drive if those stars are also orbited by a superjovian. They may also provide a source of conflict and confrontation, both for their access to the resources of distant stars and perhaps as an avenue of attack if their orbit brings them close to inhabited worlds. Any ships or bases that are in the same location as the Lagrange Points will orbit with it, just as if there were in orbit of a planet.

Steve

Interesting addition, Steve.  I'll have to play around with this a bit.  On the one hand it reduces the usefulness of hyperdrives.  On the other hand this adds a lot of interesting possibilities.  Hmmmm....

Kurt

[Erik L]

Interesting addition, Steve.  I'll have to play around with this a bit.  On the one hand it reduces the usefulness of hyperdrives.  On the other hand this adds a lot of interesting possibilities.  Hmmmm....

Kurt

I personally don't use hyperdrives. It seems to me that they go 10x speed, but they use fuel at a 10x rate also, for a net gain of zero.

[Kurt]

Interesting addition, Steve.  I'll have to play around with this a bit.  On the one hand it reduces the usefulness of hyperdrives.  On the other hand this adds a lot of interesting possibilities.  Hmmmm....

Kurt

I personally don't use hyperdrives. It seems to me that they go 10x speed, but they use fuel at a 10x rate also, for a net gain of zero.

Well, they do reduce the travel time to distant companion stars to something more reasonable, but for the most part I don't use them either.  They add too much mass to the ship for a gain that is, while useful in one particular circumstance, isn't useful enough to justify using regularly.  

The one circumstance that I would envision using them is when I had a race (NPR or not) with its homeworld in a distant companion star. In that circumstance the hyperdrives would be useful for that race's ships to get to the warp points around the primary.  Now, with universal jump points at the LP, if both stars had the LP's hyperdrives wouldn't be necessary at all, reducing the usefulness of hyperdrives even further.  

I have played around with the concept of equipping some ships with engines with hyperdrives so that they could outrun and outmanuever enemies beyond the hyperlimit.  I haven't done it, because the ships are so limited in speed in all other situations.  

Kurt

[Erik L]

Interesting addition, Steve.  I'll have to play around with this a bit.  On the one hand it reduces the usefulness of hyperdrives.  On the other hand this adds a lot of interesting possibilities.  Hmmmm....

Kurt

I personally don't use hyperdrives. It seems to me that they go 10x speed, but they use fuel at a 10x rate also, for a net gain of zero.

Well, they do reduce the travel time to distant companion stars to something more reasonable, but for the most part I don't use them either.  They add too much mass to the ship for a gain that is, while useful in one particular circumstance, isn't useful enough to justify using regularly.  

The one circumstance that I would envision using them is when I had a race (NPR or not) with its homeworld in a distant companion star. In that circumstance the hyperdrives would be useful for that race's ships to get to the warp points around the primary.  Now, with universal jump points at the LP, if both stars had the LP's hyperdrives wouldn't be necessary at all, reducing the usefulness of hyperdrives even further.  

I have played around with the concept of equipping some ships with engines with hyperdrives so that they could outrun and outmanuever enemies beyond the hyperlimit.  I haven't done it, because the ships are so limited in speed in all other situations.  

Kurt

The hyperdrive seems to be a strictly civilian item. No warship wants to give up the mass for one.

Steve, are trade convoys hyper-capable?

[ShadoCat]

OK, someone had to ask it....

In the future, will the movement orders take into account the LP?  

If you set a destination to a planet and the shortest time is through an LP, will the ship head to the LP or will you have to specify it?

I don't think you need WP theory to use them since you might end up there anyway looking at trapped asteroids (look at Jupiter's L4 and L5).  

That brings out the question: what happens to the asteroids in the L5 position (or do we assume that SJs don't trap asteroids)?

Odd thought: if Jupiter can capture asteroids, could a SJ capture a habitable planet?  If so, would it bounce between multiple SJs LPs?

[Erik L]

OK, someone had to ask it....

In the future, will the movement orders take into account the LP?  

If you set a destination to a planet and the shortest time is through an LP, will the ship head to the LP or will you have to specify it?

I don't think you need WP theory to use them since you might end up there anyway looking at trapped asteroids (look at Jupiter's L4 and L5).  

That brings out the question: what happens to the asteroids in the L5 position (or do we assume that SJs don't trap asteroids)?

Odd thought: if Jupiter can capture asteroids, could a SJ capture a habitable planet?  If so, would it bounce between multiple SJs LPs?

I would think to transit the LP you'd need some sort of powered movement. A nice handwavium to prevent natural bodies from transiting.

[sloanjh]

Interesting addition, Steve.  I'll have to play around with this a bit.  On the one hand it reduces the usefulness of hyperdrives.  On the other hand this adds a lot of interesting possibilities.  Hmmmm....

Kurt

I personally don't use hyperdrives. It seems to me that they go 10x speed, but they use fuel at a 10x rate also, for a net gain of zero.

I don't think this is true - I think they use fuel at 1x.  I tend to have a class of geo-survey ships for surveying distant companions.

John

[SteveAlt (OP)]

Interesting addition, Steve.  I'll have to play around with this a bit.  On the one hand it reduces the usefulness of hyperdrives.  On the other hand this adds a lot of interesting possibilities.  Hmmmm....

I have never really been happy with hyper drives so this will provide a new way of reaching those distant stars (as well as some hard-to-reach regions of primary space) and provide something new to fight over .

Steve

[SteveAlt (OP)]

The hyperdrive seems to be a strictly civilian item. No warship wants to give up the mass for one.

Steve, are trade convoys hyper-capable?

Trade convoys are not hyper-capable. A hyper-equipped warship would be at an advantage outside the hyper limit so it might be worth building them but only for very special situations.

Steve

[SteveAlt (OP)]

OK, someone had to ask it....

In the future, will the movement orders take into account the LP?  

If you set a destination to a planet and the shortest time is through an LP, will the ship head to the LP or will you have to specify it?

No you will need to specify it. As LPs move I really don't want to have to get into calculating the relative positions of planets and LPs at some point in the future and estimating the best option.

I don't think you need WP theory to use them since you might end up there anyway looking at trapped asteroids (look at Jupiter's L4 and L5).  

I agree

That brings out the question: what happens to the asteroids in the L5 position (or do we assume that SJs don't trap asteroids)?

At the moment Aurora doesn't generate Trojan asteroids although it is something I have considered. They tend to cluster around the L4 and L5 points in our own system without all being in a group at the exact point so it would be possible to add some and it might give some added interest to the new Lagrange points if there were some asteroids around their location.

Odd thought: if Jupiter can capture asteroids, could a SJ capture a habitable planet?  If so, would it bounce between multiple SJs LPs?

This is something else I have considered. I am not an expert but the idea of a trojan planet at the L4 or L5 point of a large gas giant sounds plausible (astronomy experts please jump in here to correct me). I like the suggestion Erik made further down the thread that powered flight is necessary for accessing the lagrange points as that would neatly explain why system bodies didn't jump.

I think I will probably take a look at adding some oddities to the system generation at some point and maybe we can have a thread on suggestions for that.

Steve