Author Topic: Mesons overpowered.  (Read 3195 times)

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Offline darkevilme (OP)

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Mesons overpowered.
« on: February 05, 2010, 11:46:39 AM »
Seriously this the opinion i've come to regarding them from recent experience in the game. Skipping shields AND armour AND they're the only non missile weapon to fire through atmospheres? Missiles you can shoot down and the damned things are expensive as hell, beams you can stop with shields and armour. But Mesons? no counter, unbalanced as all hell in comparison to other beams.
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2010, 11:51:32 AM »
Amen to that.

Maybe increase the power requirements 4-5x. Or the size. Or have shields but not armor stop them :)

Offline Kurt

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2010, 12:41:02 PM »
Quote from: "darkevilme"
Seriously this the opinion i've come to regarding them from recent experience in the game. Skipping shields AND armour AND they're the only non missile weapon to fire through atmospheres? Missiles you can shoot down and the damned things are expensive as hell, beams you can stop with shields and armour. But Mesons? no counter, unbalanced as all hell in comparison to other beams.

Only if you get within range of them.  If you can't get your mesons in range then they are expensive paper weights.  

You are right, though, that once you get within range they are pretty devastating.  

Hmmm...there could be some justification to arguing that shields should stop them, while armor would not.  That would give a boost to shields, a system that I think is underpowered compared to armor since armor's last revision.

Kurt
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2010, 01:05:09 PM »
Quote from: "darkevilme"
Seriously this the opinion i've come to regarding them from recent experience in the game. Skipping shields AND armour AND they're the only non missile weapon to fire through atmospheres? Missiles you can shoot down and the damned things are expensive as hell, beams you can stop with shields and armour. But Mesons? no counter, unbalanced as all hell in comparison to other beams.
The problem for mesons is that they are very short-ranged and low damage. If you are fighting a meson-armed opponent, design ships that have no armour and shields but are fast or well-armed. If you are faster, meson-armed ships are pretty much toast against any other weapon system. Even if you are slower, they have to close through a missile envelope or the envelope of heavier beam weapons.

Steve
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2010, 01:06:17 PM »
Quote from: "Kurt"
Hmmm...there could be some justification to arguing that shields should stop them, while armor would not.  That would give a boost to shields, a system that I think is underpowered compared to armor since armor's last revision.
I agree that shields are underpowered compared to armour, especially at lower tech levels. That is something I intend to address, as well as looking at different types of shields.

Steve
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2010, 01:52:50 PM »
If I recall correctly, electronic hardening functions to reduce the effects of meson cannons.  And I think high power microwave as well.  No, it's not armor, but it's better than nothing.  I'll admit, until I incountered the Star Swarm, I usually skip that series of research tech.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Brian Neumann

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2010, 03:43:51 PM »
Quote from: "Charlie Beeler"
If I recall correctly, electronic hardening functions to reduce the effects of meson cannons.  And I think high power microwave as well.  No, it's not armor, but it's better than nothing.  I'll admit, until I incountered the Star Swarm, I usually skip that series of research tech.
I would double check with Steve, but IIRC the hardening does nothing against mesons.

The other problem with meson's is that they only do 1 point of damage.  Against larger systems this translates as needing multiple hits to garantee knocking them out.  for example a ship engine has a HTK of 2.  This means each time a meson hits, it only has a 50% chance to destroy the engine.  A quad 15cm weapon turret has a HTK of 8 which means each time you hit it you only have a 12.5% chance of destroying the turret.  Missile launchers have a HTK of 1/2 the size of the missile, assuming no reduction in size, Magazines can be designed with multiple HTK, Power plants can be made larger with increased HTK, and larger power plants can more efficiently use internal armour, etc.  There are plenty of systems on a ship that are only 1 HTK (hit to kill), but there are ways to make a ship harder to effect with meson's.  Another thing to remember is that the damage allocation chart is based on the total hull spaces that the system takes up on the ship.  The more of these large systems there are, the more likely they are to being hit in the first place.  All of this means that a large ship with multiple large systems, and redundant fire control and sensor systems is fairly hard to take out with mesons, especially if the engines and power plants have reduced power outputs to make explosions less likely.

I will admit however that Meson's can be deadly,  I prefer to play with them as my primary point defense weapon and have liked the results a lot.  I have lost a lot of ships however when they could not close into their range before being pounded appart by other weapons.  It is one of the reasons that my prefered long range beam weapon is torpedo's.  Between the two systems it is very hard to fight me in beam range, and with all the small meson turrets that I have, missile attacks tend to get torn up fairly well.  

In response to the coment above about shields being under powered compared to armour, I actually have to disagree.  LOW tech shields are pathetic.  By about the point that shields give 3 points per hull space they become fairly usefull.  At higher techs they are very effective at preventing damage from attacks that are not concentrated.  If the engagement is at long range, the percentage of hits for beam weapons is fairly low, and even small ships are able to regenerate a couple of points of shields between each salvo.  This adds up to a lot of damage that never gets through to the armour.  With incomming missile attacks, if the defenses can thin out the strike so only a few missiles get through each time, then the shields do the same thing.  Against someone able to get massive attacks through shields are much less usefull, but against fairly equal oponents they can be crucial.  I have play tested this a couple of times fighting myself with equal tech and size fleets and this was the result.

Brian
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2010, 04:08:02 PM »
Quote from: "Brian"
In response to the coment above about shields being under powered compared to armour, I actually have to disagree.  LOW tech shields are pathetic.  By about the point that shields give 3 points per hull space they become fairly usefull.  At higher techs they are very effective at preventing damage from attacks that are not concentrated.  If the engagement is at long range, the percentage of hits for beam weapons is fairly low, and even small ships are able to regenerate a couple of points of shields between each salvo.  This adds up to a lot of damage that never gets through to the armour.  With incomming missile attacks, if the defenses can thin out the strike so only a few missiles get through each time, then the shields do the same thing.  Against someone able to get massive attacks through shields are much less usefull, but against fairly equal oponents they can be crucial.  I have play tested this a couple of times fighting myself with equal tech and size fleets and this was the result.
This is actually my experience as well. I usually start using shields around the third or fourth tech level. I don't bother with the low tech shields. Perhaps one option is to simply skip the low level shields and start them at the current third level. I would replace the first couple of levels with a generic Shield Technology tech that costs about the same as the first two levels in total.

Steve
 

Offline Kurt

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2010, 07:05:46 PM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Brian"
In response to the coment above about shields being under powered compared to armour, I actually have to disagree.  LOW tech shields are pathetic.  By about the point that shields give 3 points per hull space they become fairly usefull.  At higher techs they are very effective at preventing damage from attacks that are not concentrated.  If the engagement is at long range, the percentage of hits for beam weapons is fairly low, and even small ships are able to regenerate a couple of points of shields between each salvo.  This adds up to a lot of damage that never gets through to the armour.  With incomming missile attacks, if the defenses can thin out the strike so only a few missiles get through each time, then the shields do the same thing.  Against someone able to get massive attacks through shields are much less usefull, but against fairly equal oponents they can be crucial.  I have play tested this a couple of times fighting myself with equal tech and size fleets and this was the result.
This is actually my experience as well. I usually start using shields around the third or fourth tech level. I don't bother with the low tech shields. Perhaps one option is to simply skip the low level shields and start them at the current third level. I would replace the first couple of levels with a generic Shield Technology tech that costs about the same as the first two levels in total.

Steve

I generally use shields even a lower levels because if the ship without shields takes any damage it must return to a shipyard for repairs to be 100% again.  I think they are useful for that reason alone.

Kurt
 

Offline ZimRathbone

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2010, 05:14:54 AM »
Quote from: "Kurt"
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "Brian"
In response to the coment above about shields being under powered compared to armour, I actually have to disagree.  LOW tech shields are pathetic.  By about the point that shields give 3 points per hull space they become fairly usefull.  At higher techs they are very effective at preventing damage from attacks that are not concentrated.  If the engagement is at long range, the percentage of hits for beam weapons is fairly low, and even small ships are able to regenerate a couple of points of shields between each salvo.  This adds up to a lot of damage that never gets through to the armour.  With incomming missile attacks, if the defenses can thin out the strike so only a few missiles get through each time, then the shields do the same thing.  Against someone able to get massive attacks through shields are much less usefull, but against fairly equal oponents they can be crucial.  I have play tested this a couple of times fighting myself with equal tech and size fleets and this was the result.
This is actually my experience as well. I usually start using shields around the third or fourth tech level. I don't bother with the low tech shields. Perhaps one option is to simply skip the low level shields and start them at the current third level. I would replace the first couple of levels with a generic Shield Technology tech that costs about the same as the first two levels in total.

Steve

I generally use shields even a lower levels because if the ship without shields takes any damage it must return to a shipyard for repairs to be 100% again.  I think they are useful for that reason alone.

Kurt

I have recently come to a similar conclusion after a series of  battles where my PD was effective enough to reduce the sucessfull strikes from missiles to one or two on the majority of the fleet, but where the accumulated damage ended up with almost 60% of the fleet being en-route to or from the homeworld to fix armour damage when the bad guys pulled a major offensive :cry:
Slàinte,

Mike
 

Offline darkevilme (OP)

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2010, 06:08:29 AM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "darkevilme"
Seriously this the opinion i've come to regarding them from recent experience in the game. Skipping shields AND armour AND they're the only non missile weapon to fire through atmospheres? Missiles you can shoot down and the damned things are expensive as hell, beams you can stop with shields and armour. But Mesons? no counter, unbalanced as all hell in comparison to other beams.
The problem for mesons is that they are very short-ranged and low damage. If you are fighting a meson-armed opponent, design ships that have no armour and shields but are fast or well-armed. If you are faster, meson-armed ships are pretty much toast against any other weapon system. Even if you are slower, they have to close through a missile envelope or the envelope of heavier beam weapons.

Steve

Okay i've run into these things in two different games and they're insane. Same format, 800 ton gunboats with mesons in squadrons of eight to eighty. Also despite multiple research projects upping laser wavelength to ultraviolet/soft ex ray i did not witness any significant lower range in my enemies. Missiles could hit them from outside their beams range true but the damned things took 3 missile to the face and didnt even slow down. Speaking of their speed like hell can i outrun these things, intelligence reported speeds of FIFTY thousand kilometers a second. What hellish nightmare have you put in this game Steve?
 

Offline welchbloke

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2010, 06:18:30 AM »
Quote from: "darkevilme"
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "darkevilme"
Seriously this the opinion i've come to regarding them from recent experience in the game. Skipping shields AND armour AND they're the only non missile weapon to fire through atmospheres? Missiles you can shoot down and the damned things are expensive as hell, beams you can stop with shields and armour. But Mesons? no counter, unbalanced as all hell in comparison to other beams.
The problem for mesons is that they are very short-ranged and low damage. If you are fighting a meson-armed opponent, design ships that have no armour and shields but are fast or well-armed. If you are faster, meson-armed ships are pretty much toast against any other weapon system. Even if you are slower, they have to close through a missile envelope or the envelope of heavier beam weapons.

Steve

Okay i've run into these things in two different games and they're insane. Same format, 800 ton gunboats with mesons in squadrons of eight to eighty. Also despite multiple research projects upping laser wavelength to ultraviolet/soft ex ray i did not witness any significant lower range in my enemies. Missiles could hit them from outside their beams range true but the damned things took 3 missile to the face and didnt even slow down. Speaking of their speed like hell can i outrun these things, intelligence reported speeds of FIFTY thousand kilometers a second. What hellish nightmare have you put in this game Steve?

They are referred to as the Star Swarm.  One of the other threads has a discussion about possible ways to deal with them.
Welchbloke
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2010, 11:47:53 AM »
Quote from: "darkevilme"
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "darkevilme"
Seriously this the opinion i've come to regarding them from recent experience in the game. Skipping shields AND armour AND they're the only non missile weapon to fire through atmospheres? Missiles you can shoot down and the damned things are expensive as hell, beams you can stop with shields and armour. But Mesons? no counter, unbalanced as all hell in comparison to other beams.
The problem for mesons is that they are very short-ranged and low damage. If you are fighting a meson-armed opponent, design ships that have no armour and shields but are fast or well-armed. If you are faster, meson-armed ships are pretty much toast against any other weapon system. Even if you are slower, they have to close through a missile envelope or the envelope of heavier beam weapons.

Steve

Okay i've run into these things in two different games and they're insane. Same format, 800 ton gunboats with mesons in squadrons of eight to eighty. Also despite multiple research projects upping laser wavelength to ultraviolet/soft ex ray i did not witness any significant lower range in my enemies. Missiles could hit them from outside their beams range true but the damned things took 3 missile to the face and didnt even slow down. Speaking of their speed like hell can i outrun these things, intelligence reported speeds of FIFTY thousand kilometers a second. What hellish nightmare have you put in this game Steve?
Their max speed is 10,000 km/s. It is possible your tac intel is incorrect. Try resetting it for the ship class in question.

Researching laser weavelengths will not lower the range of your enemies fire. It will allow you to outrange them with beam weapons though.

Steve
 

Offline Micro102

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2010, 03:04:32 PM »
Don't mesons get stopped by internal armor?

Also, i find shields to be useful even at the low tech. There comes a point that low tech shields are lighter and cheaper then another layer of armor.
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: Mesons overpowered.
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2010, 07:45:04 PM »
Quote from: "Micro102"
Don't mesons get stopped by internal armor?

Also, i find shields to be useful even at the low tech. There comes a point that low tech shields are lighter and cheaper then another layer of armor.

Mesons bypass armor. If they get stopped by internal armor, I'm going to plaster that stuff on the outside of my ships ;)