C# Aurora Changes Discussion

[Desdinova]

How is the military strength factor determined for diplomatic claims? Is it based off the player's ships in system, or the total the NPR has currently detected? Or all player ships the NPR has encountered? Is having a fleet in-system a sufficient show of force, or do the NPRs need to actively detect them?

[QuakeIV]

Would be nice if we could tick a box that says 'restate system claim every day/week/month/year' with a notification in the log as to whether or not it was followed. Because there's no way any nation would let go of its claims that easily, it'd just keep making the claim until the matter is resolved in negotiations. That does mean that diplomatic relations can tank quite rapidly, depending on how loudly and often the claim is stated.



I understand things like 'maximum race PPV value allowed in system' negotiations are entirely too complex for the current intended incarnation of the diplomacy system, but it could be an interesting end point for contested systems between allied races. A forced relocation option for dumping populations you don't want from recently diplomatically acquired systems would also be nice.

The general impression I was getting is thats kindof how its supposed to work already, you just keep degrading relations until they either decide to kill you or give in.

[Bughunter]

A forced relocation option for dumping populations you don't want from recently diplomatically acquired systems would also be nice.

Or conquered ones, for example after a peace has been agreed. Could even be part of a peace agreement that you cede the system as long as you are allowed to evacuate the population.

[Steve Walmsley]

How is the military strength factor determined for diplomatic claims? Is it based off the player's ships in system, or the total the NPR has currently detected? Or all player ships the NPR has encountered? Is having a fleet in-system a sufficient show of force, or do the NPRs need to actively detect them?

It is based on all military-engine ships that the NPR has detected and has not seen destroyed. The NPR is assessing whether you could take and hold the system long-term or threaten its territory in general, rather than whether you could take that system immediately. If the threat was assessed only on a local basis, you could simply sail the same fleet to half a dozen systems and claim them all. The NPR also doesn't take into account any bases you have as they could not threaten the system or its other territory.

For example, NATO wouldn't give up the Baltic States if Russia stationed a large force on the border and demanded their surrender. However, If Russia had a clear overall military superiority and did the same, then I am sure there would be a few wavering Western politicians.

There is a slight 'cheat' here as the NPR is given information on whether your ships are military or commercial engines. In fact, I will probably add that to thermal detection for everyone at some point.

[Steve Walmsley]

Would be nice if we could tick a box that says 'restate system claim every day/week/month/year' with a notification in the log as to whether or not it was followed. Because there's no way any nation would let go of its claims that easily, it'd just keep making the claim until the matter is resolved in negotiations. That does mean that diplomatic relations can tank quite rapidly, depending on how loudly and often the claim is stated.

That would be a good way to start a war, but you don't need to do the above to achieve that. Just fire at a neutral ship.

If you ask the NPR to leave this week and it refuses, then it is going to refuse next week as well unless something significant has changed. By asking every week you will be damaging relations with no benefit, unless your goal is to damage relations. You should ask again when you think the NPR might make a different decision.

[sloanjh (OP)]

You use both "alien population factor" and "player factor" in the rules post.  I suspect these are the same thing, but I was reading "alien" as "AI" ('cuz they're aliens to us humans).  Might be a good idea to use "player" throughout to clear up the ambiguity of just who's the alien.

John

[LoSboccacc]

the demand success not considering relationship seems a little weird, npr at war have option to react differently to claims, up and including sending a fleet in the contested area, also they're already pissed at you so might want to be much less complacent to small claims

[Jorgen_CAB]

I must say that I think the new diplomacy rules seem very interesting, I would like to give some suggestion for you as well.

I think that it might be important that relationship between OTHER empires also have an impact in diplomacy. So if Empire A is at war with Empire B then it will have a problem with diplomatic actions with Empire C who has positive relations and strong commercial ties with Empire B.

I also would like if we could use diplomatic actions to negotiate or influence relationships between OTHER empires. Perhaps we have good relations with Empire B and C but they are between themselves not in a good spot... you could then use your good standing with both of them to increase the relations between them as well, perhaps tarnish your standing with both of them to some extent in the process.

Especially the second point is what I find lacking in many game as diplomatic actions most often are a one way street while in reality it is so much more complex and dynamic. You obviously could try to sabotage relations as well, but different actions should have different consequences obviously.

I really think you have a very good template for an interesting diplomacy system. The way that you incorporate the other elements of the game mechanic into the diplomacy is really good and makes for a much better and immersive experience, that is my immediate take away from reading it.

[LoSboccacc]

would be awesome to do false flag operations with captured warship, who said Geneva convention would apply to aliens anyway

[Hazard]

Would be nice if we could tick a box that says 'restate system claim every day/week/month/year' with a notification in the log as to whether or not it was followed. Because there's no way any nation would let go of its claims that easily, it'd just keep making the claim until the matter is resolved in negotiations. That does mean that diplomatic relations can tank quite rapidly, depending on how loudly and often the claim is stated.

That would be a good way to start a war, but you don't need to do the above to achieve that. Just fire at a neutral ship.

If you ask the NPR to leave this week and it refuses, then it is going to refuse next week as well unless something significant has changed. By asking every week you will be damaging relations with no benefit, unless your goal is to damage relations. You should ask again when you think the NPR might make a different decision.

True, but at the same time with a diplomatic envoy on station and a slow trigger it would just be one of those 'tension exists between nations due to competing claims' things. Sometimes you don't want to just start shooting, although in that case you need an internal stability and casus belli system for best modeling. At the same time, repeated 'please do not go there' messages should affect the calculus for system development and expansion of the relevant empires.

Is there feedback beyond handover of colonies and ships evacuating a system for diplomatic messages? It'd be useful for estimating what another empire thinks of the situation and how willing they'd be to push an issue.

[Steve Walmsley]

You use both "alien population factor" and "player factor" in the rules post.  I suspect these are the same thing, but I was reading "alien" as "AI" ('cuz they're aliens to us humans).  Might be a good idea to use "player" throughout to clear up the ambiguity of just who's the alien.

John

Yes, good point. I've updated to use NPR and Player to avoid confusion.

[Steve Walmsley]

the demand success not considering relationship seems a little weird, npr at war have option to react differently to claims, up and including sending a fleet in the contested area, also they're already pissed at you so might want to be much less complacent to small claims

I forgot to include in Part 3 that allied or hostile NPRs will not receive the message. I did mention it for NPR vs Player in Part 2. I've updated the text.

[Father Tim]

It is based on all military-engine ships that the NPR has detected and has not seen destroyed. . .

Oh dear. . . my 'we mostly build commercial-engined warships at low tech levels' empires are going to "live in interesting times" as certain ancient Chinese might say.

[Draco_Argentum]

Is there any differentiation between "please don't colonise this system but ships can pass through" and "don't come here at all"? I'm just wondering how establishing contact works if the "please leave" option means their/our diplomacy ship has to go.

[QuakeIV]

Its kindof a good point that those should probably be separate in general.