Author Topic: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky  (Read 4031 times)

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Offline Thiosk (OP)

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Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« on: February 12, 2012, 10:36:21 PM »
I love ground force management in this game.  Yes, I do painstakingly rename each and every non-garrison unit, but boy, is it great.  Theres a simple interface.  You can click troops, move them from unit to unit, reorganize things, and double click the levels of headquarters to collapse long lists into easy to manage formations.  When you want to pick them up and order them around, you can include subordinate units.  Need a single regiment somewhere quick?  Pick up the Valhallan 597th HQ and the four units attached to it come with.  Uh oh, its time to purge the unclean, put X number of division sized transports in a task group, then order them plink plink plink to pick up x number of divisions, then grab replacements from wherevers nearby, then drop em all off on location.

To summarize; management, movement, and manipulation of ground forces is easy, accessible, and works quite well even for dealing with large numbers of forces spread over multiple planets.

This being said, I don't understand task forces at all.  You have a flag bridge, and you like, put it on a ship.  And then you like, put the navy office staff in there.  That way, you have all the joy of the top brass actually being with you wherever you may roam.  The task group cannot train properly unless there is an office staff somewhere (because we all know that none of us can do anything effectively without bureaucrats nearby) either in the system the ships are at, or on the flag ships.  You put ships in different task forces through a drop down, but this doesn't seem to reorganize the task group lists in any meaningful way.  Once you have the ships in the task force, if you move them out of the system in which the office staff is, they don't know what to do anymore, and act like fools and fail to train.  And having separate task forces doesn't really seem to help anything, because all commands are given through the task groups window anyway, so one might as well just put all ships in a single task group and just forget about TF management all together.  In stark contrast to the way ground forces work, I find TFs bulky, difficult, and not particularly accessible (yeah yeah, aurora is supposed to be inaccessible).  I find them further irrelevant, because I can't design a TF, and then order them to "COME TOGETHER, where they would attempt to path from wherever they are in the empire to the TF center.  

Im sure theres something about task forces I'm missing. But I simply do not know how to use them.  Post in this thread with tips and pointers!

So what I wonder is, why not organize ships in much the same way as ground forces?  You might remember MoO3 -- which was weird-- but one thing they tried to do was have mission ships and support ships and point defense all mixed in a logical way.  I can do that sort of management myself-- if I want a grossly incorrect fleet formation, I can have it by golly-- but if I could click together a task force that would then fly as a cohesive unit when the FORCE was ordered somewhere, but that I was able to launch sorties-- for instance sending a beam squadron on a different trajectory without messing with the primary TF-- that would be really cool.  It might also be interesting to have actual physical formations, where ships take up locations related to the center of the task force, but then they need not be running complex arrays of orders in order to do so.  I suppose I can make use of the follow commands and some of the formation stuff to enable true area defense, but its awfully bulky.  I'd love to be able to design a fleet from the bottom up, and then have the fleet be able to fly and fight the same way all the time.  Regardless of how it would look, the idea of having levels of ships with levels of officers, and then assembling them for both movement and their relative positions in space are quite powerful and interesting.

My ideas here aren't really thoroughly shown, but I wanted to get some discussion going.

edits:

When i build a division, it has personality.  I have legions that are composted of entirely heavy assault troops, and divisions that are composed of a more modest mix of offensive and defensive units.  When a unit is lost from the division, it can be replaced, but never forgotten.  I just don't think fleets work this way, and I think thats a shame, because this is primarily a fleet game-- not a ground force game.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2012, 10:39:47 PM by Thiosk »
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2012, 10:59:18 PM »
the real secret - if you haven't discovered it yet - is the Naval Organization screen. It lets you recreate task groups as needed and reorganize by moving groups around the tree.
 

Offline Thiosk (OP)

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 01:31:11 AM »
Woah-- what is THIS now?

Do you usually use this screen to manage fighters then?  I've found it far too cumbersome to detach and move fighters manually through the basic f12 screens...
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2012, 01:36:39 AM »
I believe so, though honestly i haven't extensively used parasite warships in any of my games so far. 

It would be lovely if this screen had drag and drop but it works pretty good asis :)
 

Offline Vynadan

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2012, 04:48:22 AM »
I can fully second what Thiosk described.

I, too, go through the constant renaming of all my ground forces (although with less warhammer cameo) and organise them hither and yon all day long, but fleets are hard to organise in a comparable way. It does feel like there is little to no management beyond the task force level and even the flag staff level is a little wonky in my opinion. (To date I haven't figured out how to actually change the staff a task force is assigned to - it just doesn't acknowledge my change in the task force screen.)

This pretty much results in me not bothering with fleet detachments and superior task forces - my fleets train in my home system and then move out, usually without a ship containing a flag bridge and staff. I also never detach area defense ships, but simply reverted to missile and final fire defenses due to the micromanagement and alphabetical order in which the fleets are organised (which is far from how they actually relate to one another in about 95% of the time). For the same reason I stopped using carriers after a while - With how effective missiles are, it seldomly matters whether I fire at them from a bomber or battleship, at least with the AI.

The Naval Organisation tab is a bit misleading, in my opinion. It allows to organise ships in a meaningful way, but it seems entirely superficial right now. You have to add all task forces manually to the headquarters and no changes you do here actually impact any organisatory statistic of the ships or task groups from what I can tell. It's also a little weird in my opinion that bonuses only apply to ships in the same system - My Terra HQ usually contains a branch for logistics, a branch for auxilliary and one for defense forces. Since my active fleets rarely operate in my home system, I don't even bother with putting them in there. The logistics and auxilliary forces also leave the system daily, so to actually utilise the bonuses from the HQ I'd have to constantly change the assignment of all task forces whenever they do a jump (which is either a pain in the ass or just a waste of time since the change isn't recognised in the task force screen).

So yeah, I just pretty much stopped bothering with the in-game stuff an do the whole fluff in my head.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2012, 05:45:32 AM »
The advantage of using the naval organization screen is that you can group your ship into useable hierarchies, which lets you form and absorb detachments on the fly.  Thus I have a massive task group at my HW titled Reserves, and I can view all my training task groups with a few clicks, and I can form an ad hoc taskgroup that's matched in technology/loadout/training/age/capability without much effort at all.  When I reach a system I can easily detach small operationally viable groups for specific tasks. 

If you want active fleets to benefit from task force bonuses, you will probably need to create a command ship (Jump cruisers are ideal) and use it as a task force flagship.  To be honest im not even sure what most of those bonuses do and that's not why I use the naval organization screen. Heh.  I use it so I can see the disposition of my forces on various tasks and reorganize them relatively quickly and efficiently.

 

Offline Corik

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2012, 05:47:36 AM »
Quote from: TheDeadlyShoe link=topic=4635. msg46608#msg46608 date=1329109158
the real secret - if you haven't discovered it yet - is the Naval Organization screen.  It lets you recreate task groups as needed and reorganize by moving groups around the tree.

I can't find that screen.  Do you mean one of the options under Military Organization in the Empire menu?
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2012, 08:53:32 AM »
I can't find that screen.  Do you mean one of the options under Military Organization in the Empire menu?

Last (4th) tab on F12 screen, IIRC.

John
 

Offline Corik

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2012, 09:45:21 AM »
Quote from: sloanjh link=topic=4635. msg46631#msg46631 date=1329144812
Last (4th) tab on F12 screen, IIRC.

John

lol, I've never used that.  Thanks! Will try it next time I play :)
 

Offline Thiosk (OP)

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2012, 12:37:44 PM »
This is an interesting window but I have not even scratched the surface on how to use it effectively.

Somewhat strange I can't seem to remove a ship from a branch one I get it in there, I just delete the whole branch. 

My plan is to set each branch up with a squad jumpship, PD, and a mission ship(s) of some sort.  If I assemble the fleet into a single TG, and order a squadron jump, will the various branches each be arranged around their respective branch jumpship?  How would such a transit work?
 

Offline Grunden

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2012, 01:27:37 PM »
You have to divide the fleet into groups before Squadron jumps.  However the naval organization tab makes this fairly painless.  Here's a (partial) example of how I might organize a fleet.

1st Expeditionary Fleet
  • 101st Screening Division
  • 102nd Screening Divison
  • 3rd Carrier Division
    • 320th FAC Sqdn
    • 321st FAC Sqdn
    • 322nd FAC Sqdn

In practice, I'll initially create a TG with the ships I want in a division.  The 3rd carrier division above for example might have 3 CVLs and a jumpship.  Then I'll select the appropriate line in the organization and select "add TG".  After doing the same with the other divisions I now have the tools needed to manage the fleet.

Now to actually make use of this, assuming all the ships are in the same location, some examples:
  • Select the top level and hit "Branch + Sub".  I've now got a TG called "1st Expeditionary Fleet" with all ships from all divisions.
  • I want to give some PD elements to cover a ground invasion.  Select 101st screening division and hit "Branch Only".  Those ships detach from the main fleet into their own TG named "101st screening division"
  • I have a precsursor contact so I select the 320th FAC Sqdn under the 3rd Carrier Divison.  Hit "branch only" and I've got a TG of 6 strike gunboats and their scout leader.  Send 'em off to take care of the threat and give them a "land on assigned mothership" order when I'm done.

Now in your squadron jump scenario, I'd just detach the divisions/squadrons as desired and give them squadron jump orders.  Keep in mind in a typical contested warp point scenario you won't want to sqadron jump the whole fleet at once anyway.  I want to send in my escorts and cruisers, not my carriers, tankers and colliers.

To answer your question about removing a ship, just assign it to another branch; a ship can only be in one branch at a time.

There are lots of ways to use this stuff.  For instance I generally have a main Logistics Command branch, with Cargo, Colony, Terraforming, etc.  Divisons.  Then I might have freighters in 10 ship groups under the Cargo Divison.  That way I can easily select a good sized group for a task, but when they are just idling above my home world they sit in the "cargo Divison" TG without cluttering up my system view.

Note that when it is all set up, I rarely have to create a TG manually.  The real trick to reduce micromanagement when setting up is to create the TGs (probably with "split TG") and to use the add TG button.  Adding ships individually to the organization outline is a pain.

Now ask me how I organize my survey fleets.   ;)
 

Offline Shaitan

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2012, 02:37:38 PM »
Quote from: Grunden link=topic=4635. msg46696#msg46696 date=1329247657
Now ask me how I organize my survey fleets.    ;)

I'll bite, how do you organise your survey fleets?
 

Offline Grunden

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2012, 05:27:46 PM »
I'll bite, how do you organise your survey fleets?

Well, that was a bit tongue-in-cheek actually. Not really a specific "trick" with the Naval Organization tab (thought they're in there), but in more a general way to manage large scale surveying without micromanagement hell.  Surveying (especially geo-surveying) is fiddly so I like to set things up so I don't have to issue a bunch of orders to lots of TGs; or have too many designs.

In my current game, I've got two designs: a jump-capable exploration cruiser that has both Geo/Grav Sensors (this is important). And a small commercial geosurvey craft. The exploration cruisers generally operate solo with 'Survey Nearest Survey' location orders. They've also got geosurvey sensors so they can check out interesting looking planets for ruins (with a sensor probe first), but generally leave the mass mineral survey tasks to the Geosurvey groups.

My geo groups consist of one of the EX cruisers to act as jump tender, plus 5-6 of the GEO ships.

Default orders are: 'Survey nearest body', and 'Follow higher fleet in system'. Using 'transit and divide ships' as the transit order into the target system, which passes the default orders down to the sub fleets. So each ship goes and surveys, and then when they're all done they gather around the EX cruiser again. Hit the 'assemble' button and they're off to the next system. Only have to touch them to move them to a new system, and I don't have to constantly fiddle with default orders. That's why it's important that the tender also has Geo sensors, so it can accept the same defaults as the GEO ships without event log spam. Now it doesn't have a parent fleet so it does complain about that default order triggering; which is your signal that they're wrapping up and need a new destination system.

Now if only 'assemble sub-fleets' was a conditional order it might be possible to arrange it to queue up several systems in a row. Even still, this method keeps things sane and I can mostly ignore surveying except for interesting results (and enemy contacts of course).
 

Offline Thiosk (OP)

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2012, 07:49:57 PM »
I like it.  I'm glad this tab exists, because I was getting sad about my fleets.  They shall be reorganized.

Perhaps that conditional order needs a suggestion.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Divisions are Divine and Task Forces are Funky
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2012, 03:30:55 PM »
Well, that was a bit tongue-in-cheek actually. Not really a specific "trick" with the Naval Organization tab (thought they're in there), but in more a general way to manage large scale surveying without micromanagement hell.  Surveying (especially geo-surveying) is fiddly so I like to set things up so I don't have to issue a bunch of orders to lots of TGs; or have too many designs.

In my current game, I've got two designs: a jump-capable exploration cruiser that has both Geo/Grav Sensors (this is important). And a small commercial geosurvey craft. The exploration cruisers generally operate solo with 'Survey Nearest Survey' location orders. They've also got geosurvey sensors so they can check out interesting looking planets for ruins (with a sensor probe first), but generally leave the mass mineral survey tasks to the Geosurvey groups.

My geo groups consist of one of the EX cruisers to act as jump tender, plus 5-6 of the GEO ships.

Default orders are: 'Survey nearest body', and 'Follow higher fleet in system'. Using 'transit and divide ships' as the transit order into the target system, which passes the default orders down to the sub fleets. So each ship goes and surveys, and then when they're all done they gather around the EX cruiser again. Hit the 'assemble' button and they're off to the next system. Only have to touch them to move them to a new system, and I don't have to constantly fiddle with default orders. That's why it's important that the tender also has Geo sensors, so it can accept the same defaults as the GEO ships without event log spam. Now it doesn't have a parent fleet so it does complain about that default order triggering; which is your signal that they're wrapping up and need a new destination system.

Now if only 'assemble sub-fleets' was a conditional order it might be possible to arrange it to queue up several systems in a row. Even still, this method keeps things sane and I can mostly ignore surveying except for interesting results (and enemy contacts of course).

How do you ensure that the Jump Tender always remains as the parent fleet? Unless my memory is faulty, I had the problem where Aurora randomly assigned which ship is parent fleet and which isn't.