Feedback appreciated on my first defense fleet!

[AlmightyTaz (OP)]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post on the forums and I know I still have so many things to learn about the game.   Basically, I began my first serious campaign since C# 1.  9 was released and I'm really engrossed in this fantastic creation of Steve's. 

However, after many hours invested in setting up my first race, initial techs, and feeling really good about the RP side of things, my first campaign got off to a bit of a bumpy start when I bumped into aliens of some sort adjacent to my home system.   It has great planets that I want to colonise - but the alien fleet there has ships that go 5500km/s compared to my 3000 km/s battlefleet, and destroyed my unwitting grav survey ship that jumped in within seconds with strength 6 warhead missiles.    At this stage, I am guessing they are one of the 'spoiler' races, but because of my custom start (i.  e.   not Sol), it could just as easily be an NPR, right?

Anyway, I wanted to build my whole fleet without using SM mode or the initial build points for RP purposes and challenge - but I am flying blind here and need some advice about the suitability of these ships to defend my home system from any alien attack until I'm ready to take the fight to them and claim the 'Reaper' system and its rich worlds for my own (map attached below).   Oh, and I set the research rate at 20% because I love epic feeling games and wanted each new tech and ship design to feel like a major accomplishment - so that's a big, big, factor in my decision making.   I know any mistakes I make at this point might stay with me for hundreds of hours of play. 

Design Philosophy
I wanted to create a primarily defensive fleet that could take out as many incoming missiles with my limited tech and still take a good few hits on armour while attempting to land missile hits of my own if they jumped into my home system.   I will forward deploy many cheap scout ships / DST stations or heavily armored battlestations to soak up initial missile salvos and make use of my missiles' range.   

So, I designed the 'Arleigh Burke' an Area Defense Destroyer with size 1 AAMs and the 'Spruance' Destroyer Escort with three twin gauss turrets for last-ditch fleet point defense.   Once I have built up a much larger force of these, I will begin adding in a group of my own Missile Destroyers, the 'Roosevelt' class, in the hope that one day I'll be able to overwhelm the small enemy fleet - even with my own inferior technology - though I must admit, I'd settle for simply avoiding annihilation of my fledgling empire at this point. 

I went for a minimum speed of 3000 km/s with efficient and cheap Ion engines (thinking my defensive / jump point ambush strategy would make these less of a priority), 5 layers of armour so all ships can take some strength 6 hits and keep on fighting (due to low hit chance on my AAMs and lack of information about enemy capabilities of weapons), and I wanted to keep the BP to under 1000 and tonnage under 10,000 so that I could build as many as possible in order to overwhelm the enemy with numbers.   I am also prototyping some modified versions of the Arleigh Burke and Spruance classes to act as less well-armed jump destroyers which can take two of their more potent cousins through the jump point if we ever decide to go on the offensive. 

Please let me know what you think of my designs and don't hold back - I am a complete newb after all. 

Arleigh Burke ER class Area Defense Destroyer
Arleigh Burke ER class Area Defense Destroyer      7,016 tons       150 Crew       729.  3 BP       TCS 140    TH 450    EM 0
3207 km/s      Armour 5-32       Shields 0-0       HTK 56      Sensors 6/6/0/0      DCR 5      PPV 16
Maint Life 6.  58 Years     MSP 724    AFR 79%    IFR 1.  1%    1YR 29    5YR 434    Max Repair 83.  72 MSP
Magazine 175   
Trierarch    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

SpaceX MiDrive 150-ER (3)    Power 450    Fuel Use 13.  80%    Signature 150    Explosion 6%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 46.  5 billion km (167 days at full power)

Dart AAM Launcher (16)     Missile Size: 1    Rate of Fire 15
Dart Guidance Array Mk1 LR (1)     Range 21.  4m km    Resolution 1
Dart AMM (175)    Speed: 16,400 km/s    End: 7.  9m     Range: 7.  7m km    WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 54/32/16

Cryodynamics Lidar 1-2500 (1)     GPS 600     Range 17.  6m km    Resolution 50
Dart Acquisition Lidar Mk1 SR (1)     GPS 12     Range 4.  8m km    MCR 521.  3k km    Resolution 1
Cryodynamics EM Scanner 1 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19.  4m km
Cryodynamics IR Sensor 1 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19.  4m km

ECM 10
Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Spruance ER class Destroyer Escort
Spruance ER class Destroyer Escort      9,778 tons       177 Crew       1,031.  7 BP       TCS 196    TH 600    EM 0
3068 km/s      Armour 5-40       Shields 0-0       HTK 67      Sensors 6/6/0/0      DCR 5      PPV 60
Maint Life 3.  31 Years     MSP 729    AFR 153%    IFR 2.  1%    1YR 101    5YR 1,513    Max Repair 121 MSP
Trierarch    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Morale Check Required   

SpaceX MiDrive 150-ER (4)    Power 600    Fuel Use 13.  80%    Signature 150    Explosion 6%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 33.  3 billion km (125 days at full power)

Peltast Twin Gauss Turret (R30k-T18.  5k) (3x6)    Range 30,000km     TS: 18500 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
Point Defence Fire Control Mk1 (2)     Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 16,000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

Cryodynamics Lidar 1-2500 (1)     GPS 600     Range 17.  6m km    Resolution 50
Cryodynamics EM Scanner 1 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19.  4m km
Cryodynamics IR Sensor 1 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19.  4m km

ECM 10
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Roosevelt class Missile Destroyer
Roosevelt class Missile Destroyer      9,995 tons       245 Crew       973.  9 BP       TCS 200    TH 600    EM 0
3001 km/s      Armour 6-41       Shields 0-0       HTK 68      Sensors 6/6/0/0      DCR 4      PPV 48
Maint Life 3.  63 Years     MSP 643    AFR 200%    IFR 2.  8%    1YR 75    5YR 1,130    Max Repair 83.  72 MSP
Magazine 207   
Trierarch    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Morale Check Required   

SpaceX MiDrive 150-ER (4)    Power 600    Fuel Use 13.  80%    Signature 150    Explosion 6%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 32.  6 billion km (125 days at full power)

Spearfish-6 ASM Launcher (     Missile Size: 6    Rate of Fire 40
Spearfish Guidance Array - Small (1)     Range 35.  3m km    Resolution 50

Cryodynamics Lidar 2-5000 (1)     GPS 2400     Range 31.  4m km    Resolution 100
Cryodynamics EM Scanner 1 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19.  4m km
Cryodynamics IR Sensor 1 (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  19.  4m km

ECM 10
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Dart AAM
Speed: 16,400 km/s
Range: 7.  7 Mkm
Size: 1
MR: 10
Cost: 0.  66

Spearfish 6-20 ASM
Speed: 20,000 km/s
Range: 20.  9 Mkm
Size: 6
MR: 12
ECM: 10
Cost: 4.  95

THANKS EVERYONE!

[Energyz]

I'm nitpicking because it's overall good designs.

You 175 (number of missiles in magazines) is not a multiple of 16. That means incomplete salvo

Maint life seems really big to me (compared to deploy time), you could probably lower it by half. Or use all those MSP by adding a damage control

AMM range is more than your Dart Acquisition Lidar Mk1 SR (1), but less than Dart Guidance Array Mk1 LR (1)   Range 21.  4m km  Resolution 1.

If you want your AMM to be versatile (so you can use it to damage ennemy ships), you can keep the long range, but otherwise you probably can lower it a lot (and max out hit chance)


Peltast Twin Gauss Turret (R30k-T18.  5k) (3x6)    Range 30,000km     TS: 18500 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
Point Defence Fire Control Mk1 (2)     Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 16,000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

For the gauss turrets itself, range is useless (you shoot at 10kkm). You need the Fire Controle TS to be more or equal to the PD turrets. You need only one FC. You want to max out range and TS of your FC (make it 16x time, it's worth it).


You probably want the deployment time of your fleet to be consistent, like you did with range.

[Father Tim]

Well, with surrendering the speed advantage to your enemy, there's not a lot your fleet can do except die.  If you build enough of them, you could charge their planet and attempt to bombard it into submission from orbit, but otherwise you are doomed to play target for missiles until the enemy gives up and goes away.

- - - - -

I think your maintenance life is fine, and most of what is posted on these boards absurdly short.  Your ships should not be entering overhaul every time their crews go on shore leave; it's not unreasonable to plan for your ships to never enter overhaul, but rather to be destroyed in the war or scrapped afterwards.

With only one missile fire control per Arleigh Burke, they're limited in what they can engage and vulnerable to a mission kill.  On the other hand, with your AMMs not that great, you'll probably be firing at 5v1 to protect your fleet.

- - - - -

Thus, the basic drawback is if your fleet actually works as you intend it to, it will do so once and then the NPR will stay away. . . and these ships can't do anything about that.  You'll need to build something double the speed if you actually want to carry the fight to the enemy.

[kenlon]

Well, with surrendering the speed advantage to your enemy, there's not a lot your fleet can do except die.   If you build enough of them, you could charge their planet and attempt to bombard it into submission from orbit, but otherwise you are doomed to play target for missiles until the enemy gives up and goes away.

Given that it's an explicitly defensive fleet build in order to fight an enemy that out-techs him, I don't think the inability of these ships to attack into the enemy systems is a big drawback.

Keep in mind the intended purpose of these ships:

Once I have built up a much larger force of these, I will begin adding in a group of my own Missile Destroyers, the 'Roosevelt' class, in the hope that one day I'll be able to overwhelm the small enemy fleet - even with my own inferior technology - though I must admit, I'd settle for simply avoiding annihilation of my fledgling empire at this point. 

And with 20% research, he's going to be at that tech deficit for a while.


Your AMM is either too long-legged or your fire control for it is too short ranged.  Given that you probably want these ships lingering around the jump point on the border with the enemy, I would actually suggest increasing the deploy time and maintenance allotment so you don't have to rotate ships out as often.  Though that could be mitigated by building a maint/recreation station and positioning your ships there.  *shrug*
And I second Father Tim's suggestion for more fire control units, just to give you flexibility in engagement, especially when you're loading better missiles down the road.

[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

kenlon is right about those dart missiles.  I'd replace some of that fuel with agility to get the hit rate up.  2.5m-3m km should be plenty.  Looking again, those CTH numbers seem off, as if you aren't getting any agility bonus at all, including the +10% base modifier.

I'm nitpicking because it's overall good designs.

You 175 (number of missiles in magazines) is not a multiple of 16. That means incomplete salvo

Maint life seems really big to me (compared to deploy time), you could probably lower it by half. Or use all those MSP by adding a damage control

AMM range is more than your Dart Acquisition Lidar Mk1 SR (1), but less than Dart Guidance Array Mk1 LR (1)   Range 21.  4m km  Resolution 1.

If you want your AMM to be versatile (so you can use it to damage ennemy ships), you can keep the long range, but otherwise you probably can lower it a lot (and max out hit chance)


Peltast Twin Gauss Turret (R30k-T18.  5k) (3x6)    Range 30,000km     TS: 18500 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 30,000 km    ROF 5       
Point Defence Fire Control Mk1 (2)     Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 16,000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

For the gauss turrets itself, range is useless (you shoot at 10kkm). You need the Fire Controle TS to be more or equal to the PD turrets. You need only one FC. You want to max out range and TS of your FC (make it 16x time, it's worth it).


You probably want the deployment time of your fleet to be consistent, like you did with range.

Nitpicking your nitpick:
If being 1 missile short on the last salvo comes up, you were dead anyway.  Only 11 salvos seems a bit shallow.
I'd say the deployment time is too short.  As this is a starting fleet, damage control is great if you can afford the RP cost, but I find 80k starting RP rather tight.
Unless the enemy chooses to close, even that range of missile won't help against a speed advantage.
I haven't seen it mentioned as fixed for 1.9.4, but turrets were bugged in 1.9.3 to eat supplies.

[Jorgen_CAB]

AMM at relatively low technology require AMM to be bigger than 1 to be effective at all, especially if the enemy uses any type of ECM in their missiles. You probably could build the AMM at 150% the size and increase the hit chance to at least 200% if not more. If you don't have allot of research into higher powered engines I would suggest putting some more into that so the missiles can get some needed speed. These technologies should not be too expensive early on, a maximum power level of x2.5 is almost minimum for decent AMM and should not be out of reach in the early game.

[SpikeTheHobbitMage]

AMM at relatively low technology require AMM to be bigger than 1 to be effective at all, especially if the enemy uses any type of ECM in their missiles. You probably could build the AMM at 150% the size and increase the hit chance to at least 200% if not more. If you don't have allot of research into higher powered engines I would suggest putting some more into that so the missiles can get some needed speed. These technologies should not be too expensive early on, a maximum power level of x2.5 is almost minimum for decent AMM and should not be out of reach in the early game.

Missile ECM only affects AMM FC range, not accuracy.  Putting ECCM on an AMM is pointless.
Even at 100 agility per MSP, making the missile larger will always hurt CTH, even if you put all of the additional space into agility.

[Migi]

Your Destroyer Escort is going to shoot at missiles so it should technically have a res 1 sensor.
Likewise your Area Defence Destroyer doesn't strictly need a res 50 sensor, you can use that space for a bigger sensor, more maintenance or that crucial 1 point of magazine size (that last bit was sarcastic btw).

If you're planning on deploying them in a defensive posture around the jump point you could look into upping the deployment and maintenance life so that you don't have to swap them around so much, although if you have a station providing maintenance that might not be an issue.
The range seems quite long for a defensive minded fleet.

If you're planning on building lots of ships then consider putting most or all your sensors into a dedicated sensor ship, theoretically speaking every 50T of EM sensor is 50T which could be another AMM launcher. Personally I am a slave to my compulsions like having small sensors across every ship even if they are for all practical purposes mostly a waste of space.

The AMM is slower than your ASM which is not good. Dump fuel for engine and a bit of manoeuvre rating, you don't need it to reach very far based on the sensors you listed. It's true that early AMMs are really terrible, that's why you need loads and loads of them so try to up your magazine size.

[Ri0Rdian]

The only time JP is defended by ships in my case is on the other side (the one where you go), and it is usually normal ships, never defensive ships. Home system defense of JP is better served by cheap bases (no engines and no fuel = lots of minerals and finance saved, space can be used for armour or even more weapons!), you just need to tow them there (JP is not going to move anyway). Plasma carronade into the face right after jumping in always works like a charm (shame one cannot see this carnage in beautiful 3D graphics). Plus mines to spice things up (not to mention you don't need super range, targeting or engines for them!).

For me, going strong defensive = going cheap, especially on tech and minerals.

I risk that I will sound like smartass but maybe rethink the strategy a bit? Purely defensive ships that barely qualify for their job are a bad investment in most cases. Cheap defense on JP with bases and mines coupled with distant attack fleet that is there to pursue (if there is someone that survives!) or even join in the defence sounds better, even with less ship.
This might lead to classic turtle problem of *I have 100 towers your army does not scare me!* vs *You cannot move those towers to attack me so I do not care* but in times of crisis desperate measures are all you can hope for!

I also believe you are more likely to have met spoilers, though the combination of col cost 0 (I assume that is what you meant by nice planets) and instant JP defense sound more like proper NPR. I would recommend jumping something with oversized sensors that can survive long enough to get some readings in (especially colony one should be easy), being up for 30s max should be doable (maybe not best investment if you suspect imminent invasion though).

Edit:
As others noted, your designs are pretty good, especially considering that they do what you intend them to do, and having maint. time up is also nice to see, especially for defensive fleet, which you obviously don't want off duty every 2nd year. Never use 1 FC in a military ship though, lucky hit and even the best ship is just a blind future-to-be-wreck. Mere 2 give you much greater survivability with the added benefit of more options (more FCs = more targets).

[Jorgen_CAB]

AMM at relatively low technology require AMM to be bigger than 1 to be effective at all, especially if the enemy uses any type of ECM in their missiles. You probably could build the AMM at 150% the size and increase the hit chance to at least 200% if not more. If you don't have allot of research into higher powered engines I would suggest putting some more into that so the missiles can get some needed speed. These technologies should not be too expensive early on, a maximum power level of x2.5 is almost minimum for decent AMM and should not be out of reach in the early game.

Missile ECM only affects AMM FC range, not accuracy.  Putting ECCM on an AMM is pointless.
Even at 100 agility per MSP, making the missile larger will always hurt CTH, even if you put all of the additional space into agility.

No... not in C#.. Steve removed the armour and repaced that with a more advanced ECM/ECCM missile combat mechanic where ECM on missiles actually make the missile harder to intercept by other missiles. It also effect the fire control the same way it used to in addition to that.

Making the missile larger at low technology is a huge thing as so much of the missile is taken up of the warhead at low tech (when combined with ECCM especially), that is why...

[AlmightyTaz (OP)]

Thanks everyone for your really helpful comments.  I'll need to re-read them all carefully after work and work out what to do.

Some quick takeaways though:

1.  More FC needed on ADDs.
2.  Use bigger, faster, but shorter-range AMMs to begin with before I can tech up.
3.  Bigger magazines would be good (even if +1 ;P )
4.  Consider building defense bases and minefields on the JP in the short-term before developing the offensive navy later with better tech.
5.  Scout more with an 'expendable' scout ship with good sensors to understand the enemy.

Thanks for helping out new players.  I know it must get annoying dealing with same basic issues, but sometimes I can't find the information I need on the forums easily.  Cheers!

[Person012345]

Fighters shouldn't be overlooked as a tool against a superior enemy. Especially when pumped out in large numbers and maintained at a colony they can bring a lot of ordnance to bear in one go and they remain useful when you transition into a "blue water" navy. It depends how you see your navy, your own industrial capacity and what exactly you're up against but I've found few better ways of sending an assload of material in the enemy's direction all at once so that statistically at least something should hit.

I can also say from recent experience that it's pretty satisfying when a spoiler has been bugging you all game, shooting down salvos of hundreds of missiles with their point defense and getting in your way and you finally have enough, have a navy building montage and watch as their little robot brains try to comprehend and shoot down the incoming 800 missile salvo.

[Father Tim]

Well, with surrendering the speed advantage to your enemy, there's not a lot your fleet can do except die.   If you build enough of them, you could charge their planet and attempt to bombard it into submission from orbit, but otherwise you are doomed to play target for missiles until the enemy gives up and goes away.

Given that it's an explicitly defensive fleet build in order to fight an enemy that out-techs him, I don't think the inability of these ships to attack into the enemy systems is a big drawback.

Okay, let me rephrase then.

If the 'explicitly defensive' squadron can't do the job of stopping incoming missiles, it's destroyed.

If it can do the job, the enemy leaves (and if Steve has programmed the AI correctly) comes back with something better. . . at which point the squadron is destroyed.

It can't win; it can only hope to hang on long enough that something else that can win gets built.

[kenlon]

It can't win; it can only hope to hang on long enough that something else that can win gets built.

. . . uh, yeah?

I wanted to create a primarily defensive fleet that could take out as many incoming missiles with my limited tech and still take a good few hits on armour while attempting to land missile hits of my own if they jumped into my home system.   I will forward deploy many cheap scout ships / DST stations or heavily armored battlestations to soak up initial missile salvos and make use of my missiles' range.   

So, I designed the 'Arleigh Burke' an Area Defense Destroyer with size 1 AAMs and the 'Spruance' Destroyer Escort with three twin gauss turrets for last-ditch fleet point defense.   Once I have built up a much larger force of these, I will begin adding in a group of my own Missile Destroyers, the 'Roosevelt' class, in the hope that one day I'll be able to overwhelm the small enemy fleet - even with my own inferior technology - though I must admit, I'd settle for simply avoiding annihilation of my fledgling empire at this point. 

He's building a fleet explicitly to lurk on his side of the jump points, with station support, and hold the enemy. Criticizing the designs based on how they are not suited for doing something they weren't designed for  is silly. He's not going to be chasing down the enemy.

And he's on a 20% research game - it may be quite some time before he can build ships that can successfully go on the offense, and he has to live to get to that point.

[macks]

What a fun idea and a serious challenge too! I'm impressed considering I always start with extra labs and research points. I just like the designing stuff part better I guess. Maybe you could try beam weapons for a constant stream of damage on ships that jump through, especially if you're already within maximum damage range at your side of the JP. Missiles are definitely an added challenge though. Math and allocating resources is hard, I like when lasers go pew.