Author Topic: First Military designs  (Read 12975 times)

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Offline dgibso29 (OP)

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2011, 09:54:36 AM »
I actually caught the incorrect launcher size a while back, Hawkeye, but, good catch!

At the moment I am limited by tech and yard size - I can't get significantly faster without getting significantly bigger. I am going to sacrifice some fuel space and design a tanker, and then post the updated designs.

Same with the missiles - I'm researching upgrades on them right now, but at the moment they are about the best I can do. However, on that grain, could someone explain their understanding of what the hit chance statistics mean? Just so I can be sure I am clear on them.
 

Offline dgibso29 (OP)

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2011, 10:10:30 AM »
Code: [Select]
Mamba class Missile Destroyer    9,350 tons     903 Crew     1381.9 BP      TCS 187  TH 630  EM 0
4491 km/s     Armour 4-39     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 40
Maint Life 1.97 Years     MSP 1092    AFR 699%    IFR 9.7%    1YR 372    5YR 5576    Max Repair 160 MSP
Magazine 268    

Ion Engine E9 - EMCOM 75 (14)    Power 60    Fuel Use 90%    Signature 45    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 64.2 billion km   (165 days at full power)

Size 4 ASM Missile Launcher (10)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 60
Missile Fire Control FC86-R100 (1)     Range 86.4m km    Resolution 100
Sparrow Anti-ship Missile Mk. 3 (67)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   End: 46.3m    Range: 50m km   WH: 3    Size: 4    TH: 60 / 36 / 18

Active Search Sensor MR96-R100 (1)     GPS 16000     Range 96.0m km    Resolution 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Code: [Select]
Cottonmouth class Destroyer Escort    7,800 tons     615 Crew     1254.9 BP      TCS 156  TH 630  EM 0
5384 km/s     Armour 4-35     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 10
Maint Life 2.23 Years     MSP 1101    AFR 486%    IFR 6.8%    1YR 297    5YR 4460    Max Repair 160 MSP
Magazine 238    

Ion Engine E9 - EMCOM 75 (14)    Power 60    Fuel Use 90%    Signature 45    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 76.9 billion km   (165 days at full power)

Size 1 AMM Missile Launcher (10)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 15
Anti-Missile Fire Control FC9-R1 (2)     Range 9.4m km    Resolution 1
Lance Anti-missile Missile Mk. 3 (238)  Speed: 22,600 km/s   End: 0.7m    Range: 1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 105 / 63 / 31

Anti-Missile Active Search Sensor MR9-R1 (1)     GPS 160     Range 9.6m km    Resolution 1

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Code: [Select]
King Cobra class Destroyer Leader    11,400 tons     954 Crew     1840.1 BP      TCS 228  TH 810  EM 0
4736 km/s     Armour 4-45     Shields 0-0     Sensors 90/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 20
Maint Life 2.22 Years     MSP 1202    AFR 519%    IFR 7.2%    1YR 330    5YR 4945    Max Repair 240 MSP
Flag Bridge    Magazine 248    

Ion Engine E9 - EMCOM 75 (18)    Power 60    Fuel Use 90%    Signature 45    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 400,000 Litres    Range 70.2 billion km   (171 days at full power)

CIWS-120 (1x4)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Size 4 ASM Missile Launcher (5)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 60
Missile Fire Control FC86-R100 (1)     Range 86.4m km    Resolution 100
Sparrow Anti-ship Missile Mk. 3 (62)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   End: 46.3m    Range: 50m km   WH: 3    Size: 4    TH: 60 / 36 / 18

Active Area Search Sensor MR170-R140 (1)     GPS 33600     Range 170.4m km    Resolution 140
Passive Area Search Sensor TH15-90 (1)     Sensitivity 90     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  90m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Code: [Select]
Alaska class Tanker    21,850 tons     645 Crew     2006 BP      TCS 437  TH 1125  EM 0
3432 km/s     Armour 5-69     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 5     PPV 0
MSP 287    Max Repair 47 MSP

Ion Engine CE0.9 - EMCOM 75 (10)    Power 150    Fuel Use 9%    Signature 112.5    Armour 0    Exp 1%
Fuel Capacity 5,000,000 Litres    Range 4576.0 billion km   (15432 days at full power)

CIWS-120 (2x4)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes


Okay, other than the limitations in my missile design, thoughts?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 10:29:05 AM by Admiral666 »
 

Offline Erik L

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2011, 11:07:11 AM »
Your DDL is going to be the first target due to size for any AI ships. Might take that into consideration too.

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #33 on: September 30, 2011, 12:48:18 PM »
Your ships are actually darn fast, given you are using ion engines. Personally, I would sacrifice quite some speed for more armor/weapons/magazines.
My own doctrin asks for 1 engine per 1.000t or 25% of mass used for engines. Your ships have dedicated between 37 and 45% to engines. Now, being able to close with the enemy or evade the enemy is all good and well, personally, I prefere to crush them with superior firepower :)

Another thing is the quite different speeds, your ships can reach. If they are supposed to work together, having similar speeds makes sense. If you want to put your DEs between your main group and the enemy by detatching them, they should be a bit faster but not by a whole lot.

There is actually a command to do that.
F12 screen, 2nd tab (Special Orders/Organistation). Select the ship you want to detatch, hit "Escort". The ship will form its own TG. Now, on the left, there is the "Protect Threat Axis" menue. Here you can set how far out and to which direction the escort will try to stay from the main fleet. If you want a DE to be 100.000km forward and somewhat to the right, you select "Distance:" 100.000 km and "Offset:" to 20° clockwise.
Be sure to hit "Save escorts" once you are done. After you have finished with all escorts, hit "Recall escorts." Now all your escorts will join the main fleet again. Whenever you need the escorts detatched again, just hit "Deploy Escorts" an all the escorts you saved, will automaticaly deploy and try to get into their assigned position.
Note: Fleet training is vitaly important for the escorts to perform well or they will be scattered all over the place.

Magazine space seems a bit low.
Less than 7 salvos for your DDG is unlikely to be enough. My own rule of thumb: 15 to 20 salvos are a target, 10 salvos an absolute minimum.
Your DE is a bit better, but belive me, you will go through your AMMs stock like there is no tomorrow. Raising mag-space to 35+ salvos might be a good idea.

The tanker looks fine, well armored, but what the heck. Personally, I allways put a ton of maintenance supplies on my tankers, so they double as supply ships.
To make a collier, just put a crapload of magazines on the ship. Be aware, however, that magazines are considered military components, so the collier will be a military ship and require maintenance.
Make sure to tick the "Tanker" "Supply Ship" and "Collier" checkboxes, so they can actualle reload/refuel your combat ships.

As Erik says, your DL is the biggest ship with the biggest active sensor, making it _THE_ missile magnet of your fleet. upping the armor might not be such a bad idea ;)



Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline dgibso29 (OP)

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #34 on: September 30, 2011, 01:12:30 PM »
Well, I will play with it a bit more.

Should I replace the King Cobra's ASMs with AMMs? Do you feel that 2 Mambas/2 Cottonmouths/1 King Cobra is an effective early game squadron?


Separate question: I am considering creating a class of "Heavy" Survey Cruisers - As in, I build a Flotilla of 3-5 of these, send them in a system, and can expect them to, if nothing else, make a fighting withdraw if any hostile contact is made. IE, Has a few AMM and ASM launchers, speed, armour, etc.

Another question: Is it feasible to have a "survey fighter" of sorts? I am considering giving these Cruisers (Or maybe a Command variant) a 3k ton hangar bay to house a squadron of 9 250t fighters and 1 750t gunboat (Sensor platform?).

Am I an idiot, or is that an awesome idea?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 01:16:23 PM by Admiral666 »
 

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2011, 01:22:30 PM »
The survey GB idea pops up every once and a while. I think most people opt out of it because they have "full ship" designs from early game by the time they get to building decent GB.

Offline dgibso29 (OP)

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2011, 01:32:37 PM »
Redesigned ships. Increased mag space, reduced armor a bit but I rely on my AMM systems to survive.

Code: [Select]
Cottonmouth class Destroyer Escort    8,000 tons     620 Crew     1276.4 BP      TCS 160  TH 585  EM 0
4875 km/s     Armour 2-35     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 10
Maint Life 1.93 Years     MSP 1100    AFR 512%    IFR 7.1%    1YR 385    5YR 5771    Max Repair 160 MSP
Magazine 466    

Ion Engine E9 - EMCOM 75 (13)    Power 60    Fuel Use 90%    Signature 45    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 75.0 billion km   (178 days at full power)

Size 1 AMM Missile Launcher (10)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 15
Anti-Missile Fire Control FC9-R1 (2)     Range 9.4m km    Resolution 1
Lance Anti-missile Missile Mk. 3 (466)  Speed: 22,600 km/s   End: 0.7m    Range: 1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 105 / 63 / 31

Anti-Missile Active Search Sensor MR9-R1 (1)     GPS 160     Range 9.6m km    Resolution 1

Code: [Select]
King Cobra class Destroyer Leader    11,400 tons     954 Crew     1840.1 BP      TCS 228  TH 810  EM 0
4736 km/s     Armour 4-45     Shields 0-0     Sensors 90/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 20
Maint Life 2.22 Years     MSP 1202    AFR 519%    IFR 7.2%    1YR 330    5YR 4945    Max Repair 240 MSP
Flag Bridge    Magazine 248    

Ion Engine E9 - EMCOM 75 (18)    Power 60    Fuel Use 90%    Signature 45    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 400,000 Litres    Range 70.2 billion km   (171 days at full power)

CIWS-120 (1x4)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Size 4 ASM Missile Launcher (5)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 60
Missile Fire Control FC86-R100 (1)     Range 86.4m km    Resolution 100
Sparrow Anti-ship Missile Mk. 3 (62)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   End: 46.3m    Range: 50m km   WH: 3    Size: 4    TH: 60 / 36 / 18

Active Area Search Sensor MR170-R140 (1)     GPS 33600     Range 170.4m km    Resolution 140
Passive Area Search Sensor TH15-90 (1)     Sensitivity 90     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  90m km

Code: [Select]
Mamba class Missile Destroyer    10,200 tons     983 Crew     1512 BP      TCS 204  TH 720  EM 0
4705 km/s     Armour 2-41     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 40
Maint Life 1.53 Years     MSP 1093    AFR 832%    IFR 11.6%    1YR 529    5YR 7941    Max Repair 160 MSP
Magazine 496    

Ion Engine E9 - EMCOM 75 (16)    Power 60    Fuel Use 90%    Signature 45    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres    Range 58.8 billion km   (144 days at full power)

Size 4 ASM Missile Launcher (10)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 60
Missile Fire Control FC86-R100 (1)     Range 86.4m km    Resolution 100
Sparrow Anti-ship Missile Mk. 3 (124)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   End: 46.3m    Range: 50m km   WH: 3    Size: 4    TH: 60 / 36 / 18

Active Search Sensor MR96-R100 (1)     GPS 16000     Range 96.0m km    Resolution 100



What about the fighters? I don't have the tech yet to experiment. And the battle-group itself - Is it worth it to build a survey flotilla consisting of 3-5 of those ships + a supply vessel (or two)?

How does cloaking work? It would be beneficial to have a tanker that can cloak (For the above survey flotilla).


Collier:
Code: [Select]
Gibraltar class Collier    14,850 tons     655 Crew     1935 BP      TCS 297  TH 450  EM 0
2020 km/s     Armour 1-53     Shields 0-0     Sensors 18/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 0
Maint Life 3.76 Years     MSP 1326    AFR 441%    IFR 6.1%    1YR 147    5YR 2203    Max Repair 38 MSP
Magazine 2280    

Ion Engine E9 - EMCOM 75 (10)    Power 60    Fuel Use 90%    Signature 45    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 250,000 Litres    Range 33.7 billion km   (192 days at full power)

CIWS-120 (2x4)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Sparrow Anti-ship Missile Mk. 3 (320)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   End: 46.3m    Range: 50m km   WH: 3    Size: 4    TH: 60 / 36 / 18
Lance Anti-missile Missile Mk. 3 (1000)  Speed: 22,600 km/s   End: 0.7m    Range: 1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 105 / 63 / 31

Thermal Sensor TH3-18 (1)     Sensitivity 18     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  18m km

Thoughts?


Edit: Is this a bit TOO ridiculous for an OWP? I envision just one of these commanding the skies of Earth.

Code: [Select]
Guardian class Orbital Weapon Platform    90,700 tons     5010 Crew     11235 BP      TCS 1814  TH 0  EM 0
Armour 5-179     Sensors 90/240     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 250
Flag Bridge    Hangar Deck Capacity 10000 tons     Troop Capacity: 3 Battalions    Magazine 11650   

Fuel Capacity 3,000,000 Litres    Range N/A
Size 4 ASM Missile Launcher (50)    Missile Size 4    Rate of Fire 60
Size 1 AMM Missile Launcher (50)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 15
Missile Fire Control FC86-R100 (5)     Range 86.4m km    Resolution 100
Anti-Missile Fire Control FC9-R1 (5)     Range 9.4m km    Resolution 1
Sparrow Anti-ship Missile Mk. 3 (2162)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   End: 46.3m    Range: 50m km   WH: 3    Size: 4    TH: 60 / 36 / 18
Lance Anti-missile Missile Mk. 3 (3002)  Speed: 22,600 km/s   End: 0.7m    Range: 1m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 105 / 63 / 31

Anti-Missile Active Search Sensor MR9-R1 (1)     GPS 160     Range 9.6m km    Resolution 1
Active Area Search Sensor MR170-R140 (1)     GPS 33600     Range 170.4m km    Resolution 140
Active Broad Fighter Search Sensor MR64-R20 (1)     GPS 4800     Range 64.4m km    Resolution 20
Passive Area Search Sensor TH15-90 (1)     Sensitivity 90     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  90m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s


This design is classed as a Planetary Defence Centre and can be pre-fabricated in 37 sections

Was just experimenting.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 01:49:27 PM by Admiral666 »
 

Offline HaliRyan

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2011, 02:08:27 PM »
I'd drop the weapons, magazines, and fire control from the King Cobra for more armor (as the largest ship with the most powerful sensors it's going to be a fire magnet).

I'd also drop the active sensors from the Mambas since the point of a command/sensor ship is that your other combatants can rely on its sensors for targeting with their fire controls, and thus fit more guns/ammo in the saved space. I'd leave the active sensors on the escorts like you've got though, as they'll need to handle their own missile spotting if you want to put them out in front of the fleet in an interdiction formation.

The collier looks decent. Just a thought, but you may want to give it a large fuel capacity so it can pull double-duty as a tanker/collier for your fleet.

The OWP is a bit wonky. It doesn't have shields so doesn't need any fuel (anything landing on it can just refuel from the planet). The passive sensors are a bit pointless, as planetary sensors are more powerful. It's also huge and will eat a lot of minerals in upkeep (not to mention having to build a lot of maintenance facilities to be able to service it). You'd likely be better off building it as a land-based PDC so that you can avoid the maintenance issues and the need for a giant shipyard.
 

Offline James Patten

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2011, 02:09:32 PM »
I like using survey GBs, but they do have their limitations.  Especially when you encounter a very large system with planets and survey points spread out a lot.  When the survey GB runs out of fuel, it's usually annoying to fix it because more often than not the GB is out beyond a point that you can go out with another GB and transfer enough fuel to get it back - your refuel run GB has to make several trips.

However survey GBs are a lot faster and usually get small systems done quickly.
 

Offline Ashery

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2011, 02:16:03 PM »
Separate question: I am considering creating a class of "Heavy" Survey Cruisers - As in, I build a Flotilla of 3-5 of these, send them in a system, and can expect them to, if nothing else, make a fighting withdraw if any hostile contact is made. IE, Has a few AMM and ASM launchers, speed, armour, etc.

Another question: Is it feasible to have a "survey fighter" of sorts? I am considering giving these Cruisers (Or maybe a Command variant) a 3k ton hangar bay to house a squadron of 9 250t fighters and 1 750t gunboat (Sensor platform?).

I don't do the "heavy survey cruisers" for one simple reason: Losing a single fleet of heavy survey vessels would amount to the same resource cost as losing nearly a dozen of my small disposable vessels. This is especially true early on when you're still using low level engines and will be unable to escape most enemies.

Not sure how useful "survey fighters" would be due to the high fuel cost associated with fighter engines.

My personal preference is to go for smaller (3k tons with initial tech, 2k once you get better sensors/jump engines) combined vessels that are left to survey systems alone. This minimizes my potential loses and, even when I do lose a vessel, it's no big loss.

I wouldn't worry about cloaking early on as the RP would be better spent elsewhere.

Not really a big fan of giant OWPs as they require a significant investment in a military shipyard, maintenance facilities, and require constant upkeep. I'd just stick with PDCs, especially if you're only using weapons that don't suffer from atmosphere interference.

As I have limited experience with missiles, I can't comment on your general ship design besides this: You're definitely on the heavy side re:engines and light re:armor. As Hawkeye mentioned, earmarking 25% (one per 1000tons) of your total HS to engines is a good baseline for missile based fleets. Beams would do well with a bit more as they don't have the range of missiles, but that's not the situation here. That's not to say that you can't use more, but you'll be making significant sacrifices to get that speed.
 

Offline dgibso29 (OP)

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2011, 02:18:49 PM »
Dumb question: How do I designate it as Land-based?

I am wary of dropping the sensors from my Mamba's. If the Cobra goes down, they are in the dark. But, hey, why not?

The Collier is to work in conjunction with a Tanker/Supply ship combo. I don't have the yard space to build the Collier as is, much less with extra fuel.

As for Speed vs. Armour... If I can outrun him, I don't need to armour. Granted, I have no experience with NPRs. I have no clue what to expect. But I like it that way. What better way to learn how to better design my vessels than a nice cluster of nuclear detonations?
 

Offline HaliRyan

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2011, 02:19:01 PM »
I like using survey GBs, but they do have their limitations.  Especially when you encounter a very large system with planets and survey points spread out a lot.  When the survey GB runs out of fuel, it's usually annoying to fix it because more often than not the GB is out beyond a point that you can go out with another GB and transfer enough fuel to get it back - your refuel run GB has to make several trips.

However survey GBs are a lot faster and usually get small systems done quickly.

Have you considered using regular military engines on the survey FACs instead of the GB engines to make them more fuel efficient? I mean, since you don't really need the space for a bunch of guns or anything. Maybe something like -

Code: [Select]
New Class class Survey Corvette    900 tons     87 Crew     318 BP      TCS 18  TH 70  EM 0
11111 km/s     Armour 1-8     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/1/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 0
Annual Failure Rate: 12%    IFR: 0.2%    Maint Capacity 110 MSP    Max Repair 100 MSP    Est Time: 3.62 Years

Internal Confinement Fusion Drive E5 (2)    Power 100    Fuel Use 50%    Signature 35    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 75,000 Litres    Range 300.0 billion km   (312 days at full power)

Gravitational Survey Sensors (1)   1 Survey Points Per Hour

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2011, 02:19:43 PM »
Am I an idiot, or is that an awesome idea?

I have used gravitational survey fighters in the past. It worked but it also involved a lot of micromanagement because of the high fuel cost.

Steve
 

Offline HaliRyan

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2011, 02:24:50 PM »
In the class design window there's a drop down menu at the top labeled "Type", click on that and set it to PDC. PDCs are built by construction factories rather than shipyards, but are land based. You can prefab sections of them though and then ship those to other worlds and assemble them with engineering brigades for the cost of a few minerals. Also, you can create PDC-only missile launchers that fire twice as fast.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2011, 02:26:35 PM by HaliRyan »
 

Offline dgibso29 (OP)

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Re: First Military designs: Just how dumb am I?
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2011, 02:33:05 PM »
In the class design window there's a drop down menu at the top labeled "Type", click on that and set it to PDC. PDCs are built by construction factories rather than shipyards, but are land based. You can prefab sections of them though and then ship those to other worlds and assemble them with engineering brigades for the cost of a few minerals. Also, you can create PDC-only missile launchers that fire twice as fast.

Ahh. I already did that, actually. It was my understanding that a PDC designated an orbital station. (Although I wasn't too sure.) Excellent.

I am going to design a heavier survey class. Although it IS more expensive... I would rather have some power in a system if I need it.