Ground Unit Recon

[Borealis4x (OP)]

I always make a 1,000 ton infantry regiment of Rangers armed with IPWs and HPA and trained in all terrestrial terrains in every game. They are entirely useless but I include them anyways cuz they are just so cool.

I wish that we had an incentive to build the elite light infantry that carry out recon missions IRL.

Enter the Recon mechanic. Every front-line element generates a point of recon against whatever unit they are fighting against the makes them take more damage. The amount of recon generated by each element would depend on the CO's reconnaissance score as well as the maneuverability of the unit in question. Light vehicles generate a lot of recon while static emplacements generate little to none.

Infantry can be equipped with specialized Recon Equipment. Recon Equipment would be heavier than Forward Fire Directors while having all the same combat stats as Improved Personal Weapons.
When put in the Support position, Recon Infantry will provide Recon against all enemies attacking front line units in the same hierarchy or lower. If none of those units are being attacked, they will instead generate Recon on all enemy units albeit at a slower rate. So if you find yourself in a standoff on a planet and looking for an advantage, dropping in a few Recon units to make them more vulnerable would be a good move.

One thing I'd also like to see but am not sure how to implement elegantly would be for Recon units to be 'invisible' to enemy ground units so you can drop them on worlds ahead of your main force to build up Recon damage multipliers and also reveal the actual composition of forces. Ideally this wouldn't be a risk free enterprise and there would be a chance these units are revealed but I'm not sure how to do that with current mechanics. The Recon damage multiplier alone might be a bridge to far already.

What do you think? Would this be a good way to implement a Reconnaissance aspect to Ground Forces or do you have a better idea?

[xenoscepter]

 --- https://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=12687.msg156555#msg156555

 --- I had a stab at this not too long ago. Gave up arguing it pretty quick. Mostly because I didn't want to effort post. It boils down to RECON allowing units to have preferential targeting. So basically with more recon your AV isn't shooting at infantry in a formation unless the formation is all infantry and your CAP isn't shooting at vehicles unless the formation is all vehicles. CONCEALMENT would let you nullify RECON.

[Jorgen_CAB]

It is not an entirely bad idea... I mean to have some units helping certain weapon system hit preferential targets. It would add another dynamics to the game. You also could then give "stealth" in the form of formation with combined arms... that is... it is harder to hit the preferential targets in combined arms formations that hit formations where there are just one type of target. This way we could more easily roleplay things like IFV and infantry supported by tanks in a battalion size formation for example.

Scouting forces would be needed to find the weak spots of the enemy... perhaps increased chance to hit a weaker more damaged formation etc... thus increasing the chance of a breakthrough.

[Droll]

On a simpler level I like the idea of certain weapon types preferring certain element types in any targeted formation. Like AV makes an attempt to target vehicular elements in the formation that is being targeted but the actual selection of the enemy formation remains random. Though this does sound like I'm punishing mechanized/motorized infantry formations in particular.

[Jorgen_CAB]

On a simpler level I like the idea of certain weapon types preferring certain element types in any targeted formation. Like AV makes an attempt to target vehicular elements in the formation that is being targeted but the actual selection of the enemy formation remains random. Though this does sound like I'm punishing mechanized/motorized infantry formations in particular.

This would force you to only build formation with one single unit in them... I think that combined arms formation should rather protect against that type of selection rather than the reverse. I think it probably should be the selection of the formation that is more important... the scouting force will select a more suitable formation for your formation to target (depending on the weapons in it). Scouting could then also as I mentioned have a higher chance to select a more wounded unit, this would give reserves more of an importance too, troops you don't put directly on the line.

I have always also argued that you should not be able to attack with an infinite number of troops on an enemy force, so... not every one of your unit might find an enemy unit to target every round. I think this would enhance the realism feeling of ground combat allot. You might need to adjust the benefit of technology in combat power though if you had some mechanic like that... otherwise technology might give too much of an advantage in ground combat.

[Borealis4x (OP)]

It is not an entirely bad idea... I mean to have some units helping certain weapon system hit preferential targets. It would add another dynamics to the game. You also could then give "stealth" in the form of formation with combined arms... that is... it is harder to hit the preferential targets in combined arms formations that hit formations where there are just one type of target. This way we could more easily roleplay things like IFV and infantry supported by tanks in a battalion size formation for example.

I would probably term it 'Evasion' in this case; the ability to not be hit by the enemy. Would be an interesting counter-force to Recon, basically doing the opposite and buffing the units resistance to damage instead. Could be another Officer trait.

Perhaps units with Recon gear also get a really high Evasion stat so enemies have a hard time hitting them even if there are only a small group of them on a planet with a massive enemy army. Recon would take casualties at a very slow rate, so you can't camp them there forever.

Maybe you get big bonuses to Evasion when your units are under a certain threshold of tonnage. less than or equal to 250 ton units have 50x the Evasion cuz they are so small, less than or equal to 1000 tons have 10x, etc, etc...

[Garfunkel]

Evasion already exists and it's the counterpart to fortification.

[Droll]

On a simpler level I like the idea of certain weapon types preferring certain element types in any targeted formation. Like AV makes an attempt to target vehicular elements in the formation that is being targeted but the actual selection of the enemy formation remains random. Though this does sound like I'm punishing mechanized/motorized infantry formations in particular.

This would force you to only build formation with one single unit in them... I think that combined arms formation should rather protect against that type of selection rather than the reverse. I think it probably should be the selection of the formation that is more important... the scouting force will select a more suitable formation for your formation to target (depending on the weapons in it). Scouting could then also as I mentioned have a higher chance to select a more wounded unit, this would give reserves more of an importance too, troops you don't put directly on the line.

I have always also argued that you should not be able to attack with an infinite number of troops on an enemy force, so... not every one of your unit might find an enemy unit to target every round. I think this would enhance the realism feeling of ground combat allot. You might need to adjust the benefit of technology in combat power though if you had some mechanic like that... otherwise technology might give too much of an advantage in ground combat.

Although I agree on the idea of combat width I do not think it should happen on as small a scale as you suggest, the whole shots per combat round thing is deliberately abstracted and I think already accounts for the fact that not every single soldier is firing their weapons 100% of the time ground combat is ongoing.

I think implementing it as some sort of soft cap, where beyond a point bringing extra numbers still gives a benefit, but with diminishing returns would make more sense. Idk if you'd do it at the element level or the formation level (weighted by unit no. or tonnage) though, I would lean towards formation level. It would also be a way to make difficult terrain like mountains effect combat in a different way by reducing this combat width, though that would also need a look back at the relevant terrain capabilities.

[Jorgen_CAB]

On a simpler level I like the idea of certain weapon types preferring certain element types in any targeted formation. Like AV makes an attempt to target vehicular elements in the formation that is being targeted but the actual selection of the enemy formation remains random. Though this does sound like I'm punishing mechanized/motorized infantry formations in particular.

This would force you to only build formation with one single unit in them... I think that combined arms formation should rather protect against that type of selection rather than the reverse. I think it probably should be the selection of the formation that is more important... the scouting force will select a more suitable formation for your formation to target (depending on the weapons in it). Scouting could then also as I mentioned have a higher chance to select a more wounded unit, this would give reserves more of an importance too, troops you don't put directly on the line.

I have always also argued that you should not be able to attack with an infinite number of troops on an enemy force, so... not every one of your unit might find an enemy unit to target every round. I think this would enhance the realism feeling of ground combat allot. You might need to adjust the benefit of technology in combat power though if you had some mechanic like that... otherwise technology might give too much of an advantage in ground combat.

Although I agree on the idea of combat width I do not think it should happen on as small a scale as you suggest, the whole shots per combat round thing is deliberately abstracted and I think already accounts for the fact that not every single soldier is firing their weapons 100% of the time ground combat is ongoing.

I think implementing it as some sort of soft cap, where beyond a point bringing extra numbers still gives a benefit, but with diminishing returns would make more sense. Idk if you'd do it at the element level or the formation level (weighted by unit no. or tonnage) though, I would lean towards formation level. It would also be a way to make difficult terrain like mountains effect combat in a different way by reducing this combat width, though that would also need a look back at the relevant terrain capabilities.

Yes... but it is abstracted in an absurd way... you simply should not be able to attack 10kt with 1mt at the same time with the same intensity... so a simple formula that reduce the hit chance against the smaller force have a chance to survive a couple of rounds is all that is necessary. Same pretty easy abstraction.

This also would make reserves act like they should do... as you don't need to put all troops on the line all the time, reducing the front line is a thing you can do. Especially if this is combined with the fact that scouting can target weaker formations. It also means the stronger force take more realistic damage than you currently would as the mechanic stands today. In essence if you have twice the force you will only take 1/4 the losses... you are still going to win but it will take a bit longer and you will suffer more damage. It also would make garrisons a bit more interesting as they are more likely to hold against and invasion until a relief force can arrive to help them.

[misanthropope]

conditions are fairly common where a significant tonnage advantage is necessary for victory.  if you add a mechanism that reduces the value of material superiority, you can make planets uncrackable by anything other than the small army of ultra-heavies that many in the community seem to view as exploit-y already.

[Jorgen_CAB]

conditions are fairly common where a significant tonnage advantage is necessary for victory.  if you add a mechanism that reduces the value of material superiority, you can make planets uncrackable by anything other than the small army of ultra-heavies that many in the community seem to view as exploit-y already.

I think that would not be the case... you would still win, the difference would be that you win more slowly and take more damage in the process.

Also... ultra heavy vehicles are only effective against the AI... mainly because of how their armies are structured. Anything above heavy vehicles are very expensive and vulnerable pieces of kit, usually because of their very low fire-power. Take the same cost of PWL infantry as those ultra heavy and it will take years to win... all you need are a few heavy AT guns and those ultra heavy would loose.

[nakorkren]

What do you guys think about adding a base ground unit class (like infantry and light vehicle) that is "Recon". Give it the same stats as infantry except the to-hit is very, very low (probably some play testing required, but maybe start around 0.001), and the only "module" it can use is FFD.

The use case would be as a special forces scout to gain intel on a force before you actually drop the main force, and/or to guide orbital bombardment. It may be that the orbital bombardment/FFD code will only work if the unit has a weapon, so maybe have to give it a silly low damage weapon to keep from breaking/changing the existing code, without permitting an exploit of impossible-to-hit solders that can still shoot stuff.

Thoughts?