Author Topic: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls  (Read 3073 times)

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Offline Llamatoesl (OP)

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I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« on: May 12, 2014, 01:49:06 AM »
This is my first topic, so if I'm in the wrong sub, please move this. 
I've been having difficulty designing warships early on.  I've decided that I need a defensive force.  is a missile with a range of 5,000,000 km good for 15 years in?
I have a fire control that has roughly the same range.  The best fire control I have only has a range of 62,000 km.  Conversely, my plasma cannonade has a range of 160,000 km.
Do I just have to continue research? Or am I doing something wrong?
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2014, 02:40:22 AM »
I'm not 100% sure here, but you said you have a fire control with 5 million km range, which is fine if your missile has teh same range, you also need an active sensor to detect your target, so at least give that the same range.
I would suggest a much longer range missile though, while fuel is cheap the main restriction for missile range really is the size of fire controls and sensors, if you can afford to you should research a vastly longer range firecontrol and sensor, try for 50-200 million kilometers, resolution 40-80 is probably sufficient for a start.
You don't need your active sensor to be on the same ship as your missiles, you can and should have a dedicated sensor ship with the largest active sensors you can field then put your fire controls and missiles onto other ships.

Beam fire controls have much shorter ranges than missile ones, you can increase the range by vastly increasing the size. But note that beam weapons generally have a bad accuracy at long ranges, you should actually try to have a fire control with double the range of the beam weapon so that when you get into range you'll have a good accuracy for the initial shots, but this isn't always possible and smaller ships have very tight tonnage restrictions anyway.
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Offline 381654729

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2014, 02:56:51 AM »
Posting some missile and/or ship designs (here or in Bureau of Ship Design) and asking for critique might be a good way to gain some insight.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2014, 07:54:01 AM »
What tech do you have available?  Without that it is difficult to evaluate.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Theodidactus

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2014, 08:40:07 AM »
This is my first topic, so if I'm in the wrong sub, please move this.  
I've been having difficulty designing warships early on.  I've decided that I need a defensive force.  is a missile with a range of 5,000,000 km good for 15 years in?
I have a fire control that has roughly the same range.  The best fire control I have only has a range of 62,000 km.  Conversely, my plasma cannonade has a range of 160,000 km.
Do I just have to continue research? Or am I doing something wrong?

For the missile-related questions:
It depends on what the ships are for.

Unless you are the very early game, any potential threat to your planetary defenses will be able to manufacture missiles that outrange your missiles. This means they'll shoot at you before you shoot at them. So your ships will need defenses, lots of defenses. Armor and anti-missile cannons and anti-missile missiles and stuff. So if their job is to sit in earth orbit and protect their home, they might not work too well.

Basically, every ship design is a maximization of two of the following variables: Speed, range, and defensive systems. 5 million kilometers is a very short "range" for anything but the very very early game, so you will need to compensate with a fast ship that can take a brutal pounding before closing the distance and unleashing hell.

For the beam/cannon related questions:
fire controls can be dialed up in size (take a look at their tech design screen) and increasing the size will increase their range or their maximum speed. The "maximum range" of a beam or cannon is the farthest away it can do damage...but the damage it will do at its "maximum range" is pitiful. For example, I got a ship with 15 lasers that do 16 damage each...at their normal firing range. That's enough to kill just about anything. However, If I fire them at their maximum range, they only do 2 damage each, not even enough to punch out a light destroyer. Basically (and this is especially true with plasma cannons) you're going to want to hold your fire until the enemy craft is within 30,000 km or less anyway.


When I started playing I cruised the bureau of ship design for like, 6 months before I really "got" how things work. Still don't. Welcome aboard.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 08:44:31 AM by Theodidactus »
My Theodidactus, now I see that you are excessively simple of mind and more gullible than most. The Crystal Sphere you seek cannot be found in nature, look about you...wander the whole cosmos, and you will find nothing but the clear sweet breezes of the great ethereal ocean enclosed not by any bound
 

Offline Llamatoesl (OP)

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2014, 10:46:00 AM »
Thanks.  i have taken some of the advice- Unfortunately, the only missile fire control I could build with a decent resolution was massive.
 

Offline Theodidactus

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2014, 11:14:46 AM »
Thanks.  i have taken some of the advice- Unfortunately, the only missile fire control I could build with a decent resolution was massive.

it sounds like you're fundamentally limited by tech level, and then there's little you can do without some hard-core research.

The final numbers are not as important as the balance between them, if that makes sense.
You're not making a "mistake" unless these numbers don't line up:
- the range of the missile
- the range of the fire control for the missile
- the range of the active scanner/sensor that detects targets the missile will hit.

"newbie mistakes" usually aren't pitifully short ranged missiles or whatever, it's typically that someone has, say, a missile fire control that can lob missiles 20 million km, but missiles that only have a range of 5 million km, or ships that lack an active sensor and therefore can't see anything at all.

Basically, if 5 million kilometers is all you can do, then it's all you can do. the important thing is whether the ship itself has a missile that goes about that far, and has an active sensor or a support ship with an active sensor that goes at least that far.

This is why some earlier posters were saying it might be a good idea to post the design for the whole ship in the bureau of ship design. it's tough to critique a single weapon system in a vacuum. Posting the whole design will let us say things like "sure this thing has missiles but it also has no armor so its going to be torn to pieces before it does anything" or "your ship has very short range so it's not going to be able to fly out and engage targets without running out of fuel."
My Theodidactus, now I see that you are excessively simple of mind and more gullible than most. The Crystal Sphere you seek cannot be found in nature, look about you...wander the whole cosmos, and you will find nothing but the clear sweet breezes of the great ethereal ocean enclosed not by any bound
 

Offline Llamatoesl (OP)

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2014, 12:46:16 PM »
Missile Size: 5. 12 MSP  (0. 256 HS)     Warhead: 9    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 38
Speed: 5600 km/s    Engine Endurance: 218 minutes   Range: 73. 1m km
Cost Per Missile: 5. 426
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 212. 8%   3k km/s 38%   5k km/s 42. 6%   10k km/s 21. 3%
Materials Required:    2. 25x Tritanium   3. 176x Gallicite   Fuel x1750

Development Cost for Project: 543RP
This is about as close to my fire control as I could get.  I'm working on a more powerful version for PDCs and cruisers, but this should be my baseline missile.
 

Offline Sematary

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2014, 01:00:09 PM »
Can you lower its size by 0.12 MSP? Or up it to size 6? If not then you are wasting space essentially. A size 5.00000001 missile still has to be shot out of a size 6 launcher so its best to work in whole numbers.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2014, 01:57:13 PM »
Missile Size: 5. 12 MSP  (0. 256 HS)     Warhead: 9    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 38
Speed: 5600 km/s    Engine Endurance: 218 minutes   Range: 73. 1m km
Cost Per Missile: 5. 426
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 212. 8%   3k km/s 38%   5k km/s 42. 6%   10k km/s 21. 3%
Materials Required:    2. 25x Tritanium   3. 176x Gallicite   Fuel x1750

Development Cost for Project: 543RP
This is about as close to my fire control as I could get.  I'm working on a more powerful version for PDCs and cruisers, but this should be my baseline missile.

What engine/fuel modifier/power modifier/Warhead/missile agility/Agtive Sensor/EM techs do you currently have?  This missile looks to be have to little engine and way too much agility. 
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline NihilRex

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2014, 04:39:53 PM »
Hit Chances with missiles is heavily influenced by speed.  It is usually better to use a bigger engine than to add agility.

Try to use the estimator at http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php/topic,5855.msg60061.html#msg60061

I can only figure out the missile estimator myself, but it works very well.
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2014, 11:47:20 PM »
In almost every case you want to use a single missile with maximum power multiplier. Multiple smaller engines are terribly fuel inefficient, but will save you needing to design seperAte engines.
Missile engines are  very cheap to research however.
Generally the engine should be around 40-50% of the missile, until you start getting to higher tech levels.
" Why is this godforsaken hellhole worth dying for? "
". . .  We know nothing about them, their language, their history or what they look like.  But we can assume this.  They stand for everything we don't stand for.  Also they told me you guys look like dorks. "
"Stop exploding, you cowards.  "
 

Offline Kirkegaard

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2014, 05:03:44 PM »
I will just jump in here, I am quite far into my game technology wise and have also defeated a few enemy ships and gotten destroyed by others. I now use a size 1 and a size 9 missile. Could I get you to take a look at them?

Missile Size: 1:
0.1 Warhead
0.1 Fuel
0.39 Agility
0.1 Active sensor
1 0.55 Solid Core AM drive engine

Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 1 MSP  (0.05 HS)     Warhead: 1    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 72
Speed: 11000 km/s    Engine Endurance: 37.0 hours   Range: 1 466.5m km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.24   Sensitivity Modifier: 180%
Resolution: 1    Maximum Range vs 50 ton object (or larger): 40 000 km
Cost Per Missile: 2.0195
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 792%   3k km/s 216%   5k km/s 158.4%   10k km/s 79.2%
Materials Required:    0.25x Tritanium   0.144x Boronide   0.24x Uridium   1.3855x Gallicite   Fuel x250


Size 9.
2 Warhead
1.5 fuel
2.2 Agility
1 Thermal Sensor
2 2.5 Solid Core AM Drive engine:
Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 9 MSP  (0.45 HS)     Warhead: 20    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 49
Speed: 11100 km/s    Engine Endurance: 114.4 hours   Range: 4 572.0m km
Thermal Sensor Strength: 1.2    Detect Sig Strength 1000:  1 200 000 km
Cost Per Missile: 15.21
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 543.9%   3k km/s 147%   5k km/s 108.8%   10k km/s 54.4%
Materials Required:    5x Tritanium   0.72x Boronide   1.2x Uridium   8.29x Gallicite   Fuel x3750

Development Cost for Project: 1521RP

Are they fast enough? If a ship is moving at 5500 km/s the missile is only double speed and it might move quite a lot before my missile get to it?
That let me to the sensors, how should I set them up? I have seen quite a few missiles loosing track of the enemy, and that seems like a waste.
 

Offline NihilRex

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2014, 06:21:11 PM »
Your size 1 missile is too slow.  I am assuming it is a countermissile.  You should be using the MAX power modifer you can for it.

Thermal missile sensors are better for mines\busses.

For normal targets an active sensor is better, with the resolution scaled to whatever targets you are looking for.
 

Offline Kirkegaard

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Re: I need some help with Missile design/fire/controls
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2014, 06:49:03 PM »
Thank you,

Can you decide the resolution on the missiles? Or do you mean on the fire control?