Author Topic: My Questions of Perplexity  (Read 8995 times)

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Offline sloanjh

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2011, 11:48:00 PM »
Steve's game?
The one that's in the DB when you download it from the site....

John
 

Offline Iamwinterborn (OP)

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2011, 07:39:32 AM »
Ahhhhh.


One last thing (for the next two hours probably  :P  ):


If you leave "real stars" checked, what will "stay the same" between games?  Will just the names of stars stay the same?  Planets/Asteroids/Moons?  What about the mineral deposits?  Or will all that be randomly generated when you create each game (or more accurately if my forum reading is correct, when you jump through into a new system. )
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2011, 08:17:59 AM »
Ahhhhh.


One last thing (for the next two hours probably  :P  ):


If you leave "real stars" checked, what will "stay the same" between games?  Will just the names of stars stay the same?  Planets/Asteroids/Moons?  What about the mineral deposits?  Or will all that be randomly generated when you create each game (or more accurately if my forum reading is correct, when you jump through into a new system. )

My understanding is Names, Types, and Galactic Locations (and possibly stellar masses).  In real stars, the JP generation code is more likely to connect you to a nearby system than a far system.  Minerals, planets, etc. will be randomly generated for each new game.

If you look for a post from Steve about Real Stars (probably in Mechanics, probably somewhere in 4.x) you can confirm or deny all this.

John
 

Offline Iamwinterborn (OP)

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2011, 01:14:27 AM »
1.   What is the bonus of having higher levels of Commercial Spaceports?

2.   While I assume it would be good, what would having a second Commercial Spaceport a system over above my growing colony do?  Would it make it more likely to spawn a second shipping line? 

FAKEEDIT: Ah, found it in the wiki.    Good to have to increase turn around times on shipping. 

3.    What are the ways I can increase my growth rate?  I know of: Planetary Governor and Sector Governor.    But that's all I know of.    Anything else?

4.    Is there a tutorial or a thread somewhere that details dealing with fighters?  I made what I think is a nice carrier/fighter combo:  A Carrier with enough room for 13 of these fighters, each fighter has 3 size 4 launchers with minimal reload (don't have box launchers yet) and no magazines.    Just fire, return.    Carrier carries the magazines to reload.    Of course, since I have yet to fire a shot in battle EVER, this could just be me throwing myself into a volcano OF HORRIBLE FLAMING DEATH or something.  .  . 

5.    Actually, can someone point me towards a good thread in the ship designs section dealing with a basic early fleet with perhaps some explanations behind the reasonings? I have hard time getting in my head a vision that will work.   This actually truly my first game where I had to think this hard.    ;D  I quit Dwarf Fotress because the graphics + subject matter + horrible to understand mechanics.   Why haven't I quit this one yet?  Because ummmmm SPAAAAAACE.    There's probably great threads in there, but I don't have my head around the combat mechanics at all yet, though I am trying.   I have unhappy reality in which I don't get things, until I finally do, at which point it all makes perfect sense.   There's no middle ground or slow learning usually.   Sucks for studying, but anyways. . .

Currently my doctrine is based around a slowly expanding line of grav and geo surveyors followed up by dedicated jump gate construction ships - but I haven't come across anything hostile yet, except in one system, and it seems to be a special case, since I have a really hard time believing anything else could go 43km/s only 5 years into the game.  .    After reading the forums, I have decided that while this has been working decently for me, it is a BAD IDEA.    Currently have a shipyard retooling for a 6.  75 ton Jumpship with some Grav sensors on it to slowly expand my knowledge of the universe without leaving cookie crumbs back to my doorstep.
 

Offline Thiosk

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2011, 02:33:26 AM »
For early ship design, I was in a similar conundrum-- i understood ships are good, but i didn't know what made a ship good.

Check the various ship design threads-most have something to do with early questions of this nature.

The generally used doctrine is one of single-role ships.  Its too hard to have a jack-of-all trades fleet-  a cruiser that can sense the ships at range, shoot them down, and brawl up close really can't do any of those things well.  So you put big scanners on a scanner ship, big missiles on a missile ship, big beams on beam ships, and lots of little point defense turretted ships to back it up.  Make it so all the shiips in the fleet go the same speed.

However, sometimes you jsut have to meet aliens first to know what you need.  I was blocked by precursors at every turn, but had plenty of empty worlds to expand into, so I considered them as a natural wall against invaders and just built things up until i could take them.

Now my forces are pretty mean.  But learning how ships shoot only really came from fighting three small battles.
 

Offline Harmonica

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #20 on: June 19, 2011, 06:55:23 AM »
Iamwinterborn: hopefully you won't mind if I add my own newbie related questions of perplexity? :)

I'd like to know what's up with factories and factory production and industry in general.      I've been doing the maths, and it adds up - but very slowly! As in, having a planet with x million minerals that you want to mine out, you want to ship over some automated mines in order to do so.      Even with various bonuses involved for the governors, the production rate is (literally) astronomically slow.      I have ~350 mines, which gives me only ~5000t per year! The consumption for some larger shipbuilding projects would cost me, say, 50k of that same mineral! Ten years worth!

So doing the maths like I said: I would like to have at least 10 times as many mines on that planet.      It becomes now a problem of producing those same mines on Earth, and this is a complete bottleneck.      I have 1000 factories, but they can only give me 4 automated mines per month! And as for building more factories, er, 8 more a month at 100%?

Is there something I'm missing? Is this the fundamental problem with automated mines versus colonies with 'manual' mines?

edit: I found something I'm missing! I forgot to factor in necessary research.    At the moment I'm only upto 'Construction Rate 12bp' and 'Mining Production 20t'.    I assume that there are much larger outputs later down the tech tree.   .   .   (speaking of which, one thing the game lacks is a tech tree). 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 08:00:50 AM by Harmonica »
 

Offline Brian Neumann

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #21 on: June 19, 2011, 08:29:27 AM »
To get a look at the tech coming up you can see it in the reasearch field of the population and production screen (F2)  Down below the tech description there is a row of 4 buttons.  If you click on the all projects one this will list all reasearch projects in that field whether they are done or not.  It also lists the point cost and groups them by type so all of the construction factory reasearch will be together, all the reasearch rate together, ect.

There are only a couple of places where the tech tree is not linear.  For engines you need to reasearch the matching power plant first and fighter engines require (iirc) ion engines to be reasearched first.  With ew the compact ecm/eccm requires the next higher full size ecm/eccm except for the last one which requires the ecm/eccm-9.  Small craft ecm/eccm require twice the number of compact ecm/eccm so for small craft ecm 2 you would need compact ecm 4 and full sized ecm 5.  The best small craft ecm/eccm is 5 which requires compact ecm/eccm-10 which requires compact ecm/eccm-9 which iteslf requires full sized ecm/eccm-10. 

Other than this there are a couple of fields that require a precursor tech to unlock.  For cloaking you need to reasearch cloaking theory.  For jump tech (including gravitational sensors) you need to reasearch jump theory.  For ew you need to reasearch electronic warfare first.  I think that is all of the standard reasearch items that are not very straight forward.  There are also some advanced tech weapons and shields that you can only get from some aliens or ruins but they are pretty straightforward once you unlock them.

Brian
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #22 on: June 19, 2011, 09:42:41 AM »

Iamwinterborn: hopefully you won't mind if I add my own newbie related questions of perplexity? :)

I'd like to know what's up with factories and factory production and industry in general.      I've been doing the maths, and it adds up - but very slowly! As in, having a planet with x million minerals that you want to mine out, you want to ship over some automated mines in order to do so.      Even with various bonuses involved for the governors, the production rate is (literally) astronomically slow.      I have ~350 mines, which gives me only ~5000t per year! The consumption for some larger shipbuilding projects would cost me, say, 50k of that same mineral! Ten years worth!

So doing the maths like I said: I would like to have at least 10 times as many mines on that planet.      It becomes now a problem of producing those same mines on Earth, and this is a complete bottleneck.      I have 1000 factories, but they can only give me 4 automated mines per month! And as for building more factories, er, 8 more a month at 100%?

Is there something I'm missing? Is this the fundamental problem with automated mines versus colonies with 'manual' mines?
I think the thing you're missing is one of Steve's original goals for Aurora: to have an "epic" game in the sense of capturing the sweep of history of hundreds over years.  This means that it takes a looooong time to build up industry.

If you read the Rigellian Diary (you can download it from Steve's Fiction in the Starfire section), you'll see the arc of a big Starfire campaign - it lasted for years in real-world time.  In game time, Steve stopped playing it during turn 167; at that point IIRC it was taking him several months just to play a single turn.

Now here's the relevant part - each turn in Starfire is one month.  I remember Steve making a comment in the early days of Aurora that the Rigellians went from a single system, tech-level 1 empire to a huge empire with hundreds of systems, trillions of population, and incredibly high tech in the space of 14 years of game time.  He thought it should take decades or centuries of game time to do this, not years.

So yeah, it seems like industrial growth rate takes forever, and it seems like it takes forever to move a significant fraction of Earth's industry to the outworlds.  But if you look at the numbers, the growth rate is a few percent (if you include research) which is on par with the real world, and it really is realistic that it would take a loooong time to bring a colony world up to Earth's production standards (think about how long it took in America).  I personally feel that the growth rate is probably a bit slow (i.e. it might be around 1-2%, so needs to be doubled or even tripled), but that's just me.

John

 PS - One of the things you can do to make things go faster is increase your starting population.  I usually play with a starting population of 1 Billion; this makes all the production etc. twice as fast.

The other two things are to research your productivity techs - these are important because they affect the growth exponent (they cut the time it takes for a factory+mine to create a new factory+mine, and so cut the doubling time) - and to invest heavily in growing your industrial sector (i.e. devote a large percentage of production to factories and mines).
 

Offline Iamwinterborn (OP)

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #23 on: June 19, 2011, 10:36:29 AM »
Is there a thread about how to make fleets work?  And stuff? Yeeeah.

My current issue is that amount of finagling it takes to load fighters into a carrier.   I have to put the fighters of the right amount into their own task group.   I then have to go to the far right tab, and put them into a new branch, as well as making sure the Carrier is in a different branch.   I then "store" the fighter branch, then assign mothership on the carrier.   I then tell them all to land.   Repeat for each carrier.   I'm getting better at it, but I was hoping there was an easier way.


Also. . .

I decided to take my 2 Carriers with 12 Spitfire IIs, along with a couple of armoured cruisers and a couple of destroyers with good sensors.   (At least I think they are good. . . ) into Procyon, where two of my survey ships had met their doom to a ship that traveled 43km/s. . .  There were also 4 other wrecks from unknown sources.   I figured I'd probably lose all of the ships in a ball of fire, but maybe at least I could get a feel for what I would need to make to take on this ship.

I told the fleet to move to the wreck of the Pliny, and started getting really uncomfortable with how little my sensors really were.   I had "active on" on all my ships, and inched my way closer in 8 hour increments.   I finally got there and CONTACT!  A size 24 missile salvo x8!  or something like that.   But. . .  I can't shoot it.   I don't know what I am supposed to do with it.   It just sits there anyways.   I went and investigated a different planet, came back, contact reappeared, again, I put active sensors on it, tried to find a way to shoot it.   Can't figure it out.

Err. . .  what am I supposed to do?  If I can't seem to shoot this apparently stationary target, how am I supposed to shoot the big bad?

I have missile fire controls, I have beam fire controls for the two beam ships. . .  I'm just really confused.   If I select a planet as the target then I have a "fire missiles at" option. . .    ??? ??? ???
« Last Edit: June 19, 2011, 11:43:06 AM by sloanjh »
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2011, 11:52:45 AM »
My current issue is that amount of finagling it takes to load fighters into a carrier.   I have to put the fighters of the right amount into their own task group.   I then have to go to the far right tab, and put them into a new branch, as well as making sure the Carrier is in a different branch.   I then "store" the fighter branch, then assign mothership on the carrier.   I then tell them all to land.   Repeat for each carrier.   I'm getting better at it, but I was hoping there was an easier way.
Look on the top of the system map (F3) for a tie-fighter icon (11th from the left).  That takes you to a fighter squadron management screen that might help some.
Quote
I told the fleet to move to the wreck of the Pliny, and started getting really uncomfortable with how little my sensors really were.   I had "active on" on all my ships, and inched my way closer in 8 hour increments.   I finally got there and CONTACT!  A size 24 missile salvo x8!  or something like that.   But. . .  I can't shoot it.   I don't know what I am supposed to do with it.   It just sits there anyways.   I went and investigated a different planet, came back, contact reappeared, again, I put active sensors on it, tried to find a way to shoot it.   Can't figure it out.

Err. . .  what am I supposed to do?  If I can't seem to shoot this apparently stationary target, how am I supposed to shoot the big bad?

I have missile fire controls, I have beam fire controls for the two beam ships. . .  I'm just really confused.   If I select a planet as the target then I have a "fire missiles at" option. . .    ??? ??? ???

My guess is that your resolution on your fire control is too large or you're not in range.  A size-24 missile is roughly a size-1 target, so you want a resolution of R1.  If your resolution is too high, the range gets penalized by the square of the ratio, i.e. the range is 100x worse than advertized for an R10 sensor (or fire control)  looking for a size-1 target.

You might want to use space-master mode to build a couple of fleets (you can get designs from the Bureau of Ship Design board) and run a couple of battles to get a feel for how the controls, ranges, etc work.

John

PS - I've taken the liberty of adding some spoiler tags to your post - you're running into some of the surprises that Steve has put in the game that some of the new players might not know about.

 

Offline Harmonica

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2011, 11:57:25 AM »
Quote from: sloanjh
I think the thing you're missing is one of Steve's original goals for Aurora: to have an "epic" game in the sense of capturing the sweep of history of hundreds over years.    This means that it takes a looooong time to build up industry. 

I get that, and it's neat.   The majority of turn based/grand stategy games I play are all about games lasting for decades or hundreds of years, and I have those kind of game saves in some games which I've been playing for years IRL.   I like building a legacy :)

I was actually thinking whilst playing that in reality everything would probably be slower by a factor of ten or something.   I haven't quite got to terraforming and colonizing yet (just found my first nice earth-like planet inside a binary system), but I expect it will take a good long time for it to take root.   That's fine because it's a simulation and a spreadsheet game, so it should be about incremental change over long periods. 

I'm kind of pleased that (at the start of the thread where I started reading) Steve is considering changing to the real time + pause button style for Aurora II.   To sit back and watch as months, years and decades pass would be grand.   Just waiting for the screen to refresh only to hit 30 days again is a bit like hard labour at times. 

Oh and the 5 second interupts for invisible alien dogfighting or whatever.  .   yeah.   That's not great.   (X-COM all over again - except at least you knew what the problem was). 
 

Offline Hawkeye

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #26 on: June 19, 2011, 12:11:58 PM »
Is there a thread about how to make fleets work?  And stuff? Yeeeah.

My current issue is that amount of finagling it takes to load fighters into a carrier.   I have to put the fighters of the right amount into their own task group.   I then have to go to the far right tab, and put them into a new branch, as well as making sure the Carrier is in a different branch.   I then "store" the fighter branch, then assign mothership on the carrier.   I then tell them all to land.   Repeat for each carrier.   I'm getting better at it, but I was hoping there was an easier way.


Also. . .

I decided to take my 2 Carriers with 12 Spitfire IIs, along with a couple of armoured cruisers and a couple of destroyers with good sensors.   (At least I think they are good. . . ) into Procyon, where two of my survey ships had met their doom to a ship that traveled 43km/s. . .  There were also 4 other wrecks from unknown sources.   I figured I'd probably lose all of the ships in a ball of fire, but maybe at least I could get a feel for what I would need to make to take on this ship.

I told the fleet to move to the wreck of the Pliny, and started getting really uncomfortable with how little my sensors really were.   I had "active on" on all my ships, and inched my way closer in 8 hour increments.   I finally got there and CONTACT!  A size 24 missile salvo x8!  or something like that.   But. . .  I can't shoot it.   I don't know what I am supposed to do with it.   It just sits there anyways.   I went and investigated a different planet, came back, contact reappeared, again, I put active sensors on it, tried to find a way to shoot it.   Can't figure it out.

Err. . .  what am I supposed to do?  If I can't seem to shoot this apparently stationary target, how am I supposed to shoot the big bad?

I have missile fire controls, I have beam fire controls for the two beam ships. . .  I'm just really confused.   If I select a planet as the target then I have a "fire missiles at" option. . .    ??? ??? ???


Fighter Squadrons:
Open the Fighter Squadron window (F 7)
 
Hit the "New" button (lower left corner) this will creat a new figher squadron. You can change their name and callsign just by overwriting.
select "Show all race fighters"
Select the newly created figher squadron and double click the fighters you want in there.
Once finished, select "Show current squadron" to check if all the fighters you wanted in that squadron are realy there.
Select the carrier, that you want to be mothership in the dropdown (second line, top left)
Make sure the squadron is still selected and hit assign and then recover.
The squadron is now landed on the carrier (assuming carrier and fighers are at the same place) and in the same TG as the carrier
If you hit "Launch", a new TG containing the squadron will be created.

Note: For "Recover" and "Launch" to work, you have to make sure both, the squadron _and_ their carrier are selected


Re. shooting.

those size-24 missiles are very likely  precurser made capture mines  . If you can see them via active sensor and are in range of your weapons (AMMs or PD) you can shoot them.

Open the battle window (F8)
Select the ship you want to shoot
Select the firecon on that ship
select the weapon you want to assign to that firecon and hit "Assign" (you can use <SHIFT> + Left Click to select several weapons or "Select All" to assign all of the weapons to that firecon
If weapon is a missile launcher, select the type of missile to use and hit assign (or hit "Assign all" to assign this missile type to all launchers)
Select the target, you want to shoot at (lower left window) and hit "Assign" WITH THE FIRECON STILL SELECTED!
Hit "Open Fire" of "Fleet Open Fire"

Notes:
Once you have assigned weapons and ammo to firecons, you can hit "Copy to TG", "Copy to system" or "Copy to Race" so this assignment is copied to every ship of that class (i.e. you only have to do it once)
Same goes for target assignment. Hit "Copy target to TG" and each ship of that type will target the same enemy.

Ralph Hoenig, Germany
 

Offline Iamwinterborn (OP)

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #27 on: June 19, 2011, 08:28:51 PM »
How do I set a system off limits to my ships?

I ask because i have my Jump Gate Construction ships set to "Build JG at nearest Jump Point", but I'd prefer if they didn't build into a couple of systems for security reasons.
 

Offline Thiosk

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #28 on: June 19, 2011, 10:09:50 PM »
i wouldnt' use those orders-- i'm fairly sure those kind of orders are mostly there for the AI.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: My Questions of Perplexity
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2011, 07:22:50 AM »
How do I set a system off limits to my ships?

I ask because i have my Jump Gate Construction ships set to "Build JG at nearest Jump Point", but I'd prefer if they didn't build into a couple of systems for security reasons.

You should be able to "ban" a system on the F9 system information screen.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley