Total noob needs design help

[Cavgunner (OP)]

Hi all.    First post here.     I think I'm finally wrapping my head around the basics of Aurora, but when it comes to warships, there are so many options available that I am totally lost even after reading the tutorial.     I'm trying to make my empire's first combat warship.     I want to have a warship that fulfills the role of a modern destroyer: long "legs," decent armament, good sensors.   

I really have no idea what I'm doing.     I'm not even sure if I need the reactor and magazine there tbh.     Also, my laser damage is still showing up as 0, which doesn't seem good at all. 

Edit: Also, I called the launcher a "Box Launcher" but apparently that is a separate piece of technology I haven't researched yet.  

  

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Clemson class Destroyer    6,500 tons     611 Crew     959.64 BP      TCS 130  TH 360  EM 0
3692 km/s     Armour 3-31     Shields 0-0     Sensors 18/18/0/0     Damage Control Rating 16     PPV 10
Annual Failure Rate: 21%    IFR: 0.3%    Maint Capacity 2476 MSP    Max Repair 80 MSP    Est Time: 16.62 Years
Magazine 68    

Ion Engine E6 (8)    Power 60    Fuel Use 60%    Signature 45    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 120,000 Litres    Range 55.4 billion km   (173 days at full power)

10cm C3 Visible Light Laser (2)    Range 0km     TS: 3692 km/s     Power 3-3     RM 2    ROF 5        0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
CIWS-120 (2x4)    Range 1000 km     TS: 12000 km/s     ROF 5       Base 50% To Hit
Pebble Bed Reactor Technology PB-1 AR-0 (1)     Total Power Output 6    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Archer Box Launcher (2)    Missile Size 2    Rate of Fire 30
Missile Fire Control FC76-R100 (70%) (1)     Range 76.8m km    Resolution 100

Active Search Sensor MR48-R100 (1)     GPS 8000     Range 48.0m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH3-18 (1)     Sensitivity 18     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  18m km
EM Detection Sensor EM3-18 (1)     Sensitivity 18     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  18m km

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
This is the missile I'm hoping to use with this ship.   

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Arrowhead Anti-Ship Missile

Missile Size: 8 MSP  (0.4 HS)     Warhead: 12    Armour: 0     Manoeuvre Rating: 18
Speed: 10000 km/s    Endurance: 62 minutes   Range: 37.5m km
Cost Per Missile: 4.5333
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 180%   3k km/s 54%   5k km/s 36%   10k km/s 18%
Materials Required:    3x Tritanium   2.6833x Gallicite   Fuel x2500

[Cavgunner (OP)]

A dozen views and no comments?   

[Narmio]

Your missile is very, very slow.  Note that it would only have a 45% or so chance to hit something the same speed as your ship, even if there was no PD involved.  And your 12kk/s CIWS tracking could hit it without penalty.  I suspect you have not put much MSP into engines - you may have to downsize the warhead to achieve that.  Somewhere around 30-35kk/s would be a good speed for an Ion drive missile.

Also, two launchers is not very many. If this ship fired at itself, it would get eight shots with those CIWS. Two missiles would be shot down very easily, even if they were much faster than your Arrowheads.

Also I just noticed you have no beam fire control for your lasers - note they have 0 range listed.

[Cavgunner (OP)]

Ack!  I have to design beam control too?  I will fix that and the missile speed and see what we come up with. . .

[Hawkeye]

At that size of a ship, I don´t think it is a good idea to create a multi-role ship.
Decide if you want a beam-brawler or a long range missile combatant and then stick to it.

Beam-Brawler needs thick armor to survive the enemy missile fire until in range, long ranged beams/beam firecon, short ranged active sensor
Missile-combatant needs thinner armor, many launchers, a whole lot of ammo (magazin space)

Any ship can use some missile defense (CIWS for ships intended to work alone or in pairs, turrets for ships intended for fleet work and anti-missile launchers for dedicated escorts)

Oh just noticed. Your missile launcher is size-2, which means it can only fire missiles not larger than size-2, while your missile is size-8. You can fire a missile that is smaller than the launcher, but not the other way around.

Note: Magazins hold missile-reloads, Reactors provide power for beam weapons

[Cavgunner (OP)]

Thank you, adding reactor and increasing missile launcher size. . .     My frankenstein will get out of the shipyard eventually. . .

[Sotak246]

You could also cut your maint. by quite a bit.  You want to look at the "Est. Time"  that tells you how long your ship can keep repairing breakdowns without resupply.   Unless you are planning on using this ship as a picket that doesn't return to base very often,  something as low as 1-2 years usually works very well for my ships.  Also dropping the maint. will free up quite a bit of space for mission equipment.

Mark

[LtWarhound]

To further expound on the maintenance comment:  While 21% is a good low number, take a second look at the amount of supplies vs the max repair cost.  2400+ supplies, 80 max.  This means that the biggest item on your ship can break down 30 times before you run out of supplies.  That's excessive.  This means you can trim back on the amount of supplies, to free room for other systems.

*

The beam weapons you have aren't turret mounted, and therefor have a tracking speed equal to your ship current top speed.  They are really too slow to be used for anti-missile work, and between the (relatively) thin armor and slow speed, you aren't likely to get into close range with anything slow enough to effective hit with the lasers.  Your ranges (missile range/MFC range/ASS range) are odd.  Your MFC has a larger range than your ASS, that's backward.  Having a MFC with a longer range than your missile's range isn't a bad thing, but unless you are futureproofing, the range difference is greater than you need.  And of course you already know about the missing BFC.

*

Basically, ship design comes down to fleet doctrine.  What's yours?  Mine is illustrated below, its a viable one, but obviously not the only one.

At higher tech levels you can get away with '1 size fits all' generalist approaches, but at lower tech levels you are probably (IMNSHO) better off with a 'one role per ship approach', specializing.  My fleet core element is made of three classes of ships:

* A fleet scout (big active sensors, large thermal sensors)
* a missile boat (large magazines, backup active sensor, one type of launcher designed to throw anti-ship missiles)
* a point defense boat (either AMMs (make sure you have large magazines)) or beams (shorter ranged, need high tracking speed beam fire controls and weapons), and a powerful sensor designed to detect missiles at a useful engagement range, which your current resolution 100 sensor won't).  

Once you get a viable design for those three ships, then you can apply what you learned to a multirole design if you want.  I make two kinds of replenishment ships - one as a collier (you will be appalled at the amount of missiles you use, make more) and one as a fuel tanker&maintenance supplies ship.  Having a supply of spare parts & fuel lets you trim down the amount carried on the ships going into harm's way, which lets you stick in more weapons and defense, etc.

A sample to illustrate, these designs a little more advanced than what you gave as an example:

Missile bombardment boat, the S1 SBM is the submunition (2 of them) the S5 bus releases once its slowly made its way near the target.  Current bombardment doctrine is 'The biggest salvo possible', to get past some pretty impressive NPR anti-missile defenses.  Sure, its a long time between salvos, but they are big salvos.  The active sensor is a backup, never used, since the fleet scout carries a bigger one:

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AD1 Cheveldi class Destroyer    6,000 tons     450 Crew     1213.75 BP      TCS 120  TH 300  EM 0
3333 km/s     Armour 10-29     Shields 0-0     Sensors 56/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 7     PPV 21.25
Annual Failure Rate: 41%    IFR: 0.6%    Maint Capacity 885 MSP    Max Repair 91 MSP    Est Time: 6.38 Years
Magazine 357    

Magneto-plasma Drive E6 (5)    Power 80    Fuel Use 60%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 200,000 Litres    Range 100.0 billion km   (347 days at full power)

Size 5 Missile Launcher (25% Reduction) (17)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 3750
MFC ASM 151mkm (1)     Range 151.2m km    Resolution 100
SBM S1g2 W4 r4.8mkm (1)  Speed: 30,900 km/s   End: 2.6m    Range: 4.8m km   WH: 4    Size: 1    TH: 185 / 111 / 55
ASM S5g2 W4 sW4x2 r132mkm s2.5mkm (70)  Speed: 16,000 km/s   End: 140.6m    Range: 137.5m km   WH: 1    Size: 5    TH: 53 / 32 / 16

Active Search Sensor MR100-R100 (1)     GPS 9100     Range 100.1m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH4-56 (1)     Sensitivity 56     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  56m km
MicroEM Detection Sensor EM0.1-1.1 (1)     Sensitivity 1.1     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  1.1m km

ECCM-2 (1)         ECM 20

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

Fleet scout, why yes, that is a big sensor:

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AD1 Palantir class Destroyer Escort    6,000 tons     531 Crew     1749 BP      TCS 120  TH 300  EM 0
3333 km/s     Armour 10-29     Shields 0-0     Sensors 56/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 7     PPV 9
Annual Failure Rate: 38%    IFR: 0.5%    Maint Capacity 1366 MSP    Max Repair 720 MSP    Est Time: 2.65 Years
Magazine 217    

Magneto-plasma Drive E6 (5)    Power 80    Fuel Use 60%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 220,000 Litres    Range 110.0 billion km   (381 days at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher - AMM (9)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
MFC AMM 2.3mkm (1)     Range 21.2m km    Resolution 1
AMM S1g2 r3.6mkm (217)  Speed: 45,900 km/s   End: 1.3m    Range: 3.6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 459 / 275 / 137

ASS S1008mkm G40mkm F2.5mkm (1)     GPS 72000     Range 1,008.0m km    Resolution 100
Thermal Sensor TH4-56 (1)     Sensitivity 56     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  56m km
MicroEM Detection Sensor EM0.1-1.1 (1)     Sensitivity 1.1     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  1.1m km

Compact ECCM-1 (1)         ECM 20

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

AMM Boat:

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AD1 Overwatch class Destroyer Escort    6,000 tons     575 Crew     1312 BP      TCS 120  TH 300  EM 0
3333 km/s     Armour 7-29     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 7     PPV 18
Annual Failure Rate: 41%    IFR: 0.6%    Maint Capacity 957 MSP    Max Repair 216 MSP    Est Time: 4.15 Years
Magazine 482    

Magneto-plasma Drive E6 (5)    Power 80    Fuel Use 60%    Signature 60    Armour 0    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 210,000 Litres    Range 105.0 billion km   (364 days at full power)

Size 1 Missile Launcher - AMM (18)    Missile Size 1    Rate of Fire 10
MFC AMM 2.3mkm (2)     Range 21.2m km    Resolution 1
AMM S1g2 r3.6mkm (482)  Speed: 45,900 km/s   End: 1.3m    Range: 3.6m km   WH: 1    Size: 1    TH: 459 / 275 / 137

ASS AMM 3.2mkm (1)     GPS 216     Range 30.2m km    Resolution 1

Compact ECCM-1 (2)         ECM 20

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

I could probably trim back the amount of fuel, but that's what I'm currently running.  Not shown are the collier, replenishment ship, small craft tender (to support the gunboat operations, and the new fleet strike fighters), or the jump destroyers used to get the fleet from system to system.

[sloanjh]

Another comment:  Small missiles are generally better than big missiles.  The reason is that missiles (without armor or sensors) scale exactly linearly - if you cut all the stats of your missile design in 1/2, then you'll end up with a str-6 warhead and all other characteristics exactly the same.  The thing is, that you can fit 2x as many missiles and launchers on your ship (i.e. exactly the same total warhead points and points-per-salvo), but the rate of fire is 2x faster.  This means that the warhead point launch rate will be 2x as fast.  In addition, if the bad guy has point defence, then each PD kill on your salvo only reduces its strength by 1/2x as much.

There are subtleties having to do with warhead penetration depth and armor/ecm/sensors, but I find 8 to be too large a missile size at the tech you're working at.  I recently went from using size-6 missiles to size-4 for my ASM designs.

John

[LtWarhound]

NPR point defense is why I go with submunitions.  Each of the size 5 long range missiles breaks down into 3 missiles for the final attack run (the 1 strength warhead on the bus, and the 2 strength 4 SBMs), which complicates things for them.  A lot of the NPRs have had only marginal PD, but some of them have gotten silly.  2 NPRs cruisers were tossing out up 162 AMMs in a single salvo.  Giving them 3 targets per launch per salve means some leak through, and they use up their AMMs much faster, and yes they do eventually run dry.

Also, the design gives me a very long range missile, with the benefit of much faster (and more accurate) short range submunitions.  Best of both worlds.  I haven't worked out a design for a high speed long range fast attack missile that can match the performance of this.