Author Topic: Pirates  (Read 9503 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Borealis4x (OP)

  • Commodore
  • **********
  • Posts: 717
  • Thanked: 141 times
Pirates
« on: January 19, 2021, 04:32:34 PM »
This has probably been suggested over and over again, but I'd like to see pirates added to the game. It'd be a good way to encourage players to invest in their military early on before they've actually encountered any NPRs and act as a 'tutorial' of sorts for combat before players go on to have proper battles.

Pirates should be weak, but annoying if not proactively dealt with. Early on you should be able to defeat them even with PD weapons as their first crafts will be barely large enough to mount a small boarding bay and an engine.

By acting as a low-risk enemy, it will get the player thinking about tactics and strategy in Aurora a lot earlier, which is good because a lot of people I know (including me) can count the amount of times we've been in combat on one hand since we always restart before getting that far.

Their designs for each component should always be at least 3 tech levels below anything you have researched AND DEVELOPED (pirates won't do their own R&D) UNLESS they mange to board and capture one of your ships. Then they have access to the technology present in that ship's components. So keep your big ships safe!

The pirate AI should obviously focus on boarding and capturing ships above all. This is vital for them, as pirates start out only being able to build 1000-ton ships from scratch. However, they can convert captured civilian ships of any size into military ships by overclocking the civilian engines and strapping on some guns back at their base (more on this later). This means a pirate that captures a 50,000 ton civilian cargo ship (a staple of my games) now has 50,000 tons of space to convert into a warship. Scary!

However, there are obvious drawbacks to converting a freighter to a battleship. One is that every component has increased maintenance requirements. Another is that engines and armor can only be boosted by so much. A fledgling Pirate Hideout on a rock somewhere won't be able to slap on more than 1 layer of improvised armor or boost civilian engines past 75%. A Pirate Haven however...

This brings me to the next important thing you have to know about pirates; their outposts. Once civilians have spawned, pirates will also start to spawn to raid them from their bases. The bases will never spawn on planets, as those are too conspicuous and interesting for the authorities, but rather on asteroids and small moons that would generally be undesirable for colonization and well away from other populations. Pirate Bases start with a Deep Space Tracking station (3 techs below yours), a military shipyard locked at 1,000 tons, an ordinance and fighter factory, and some maintenance facilities.

Every prize it takes is taken back to the base, where its cargo is converted into wealth (divided by 3) and is either itself sold for its wealth value (again divided by 3) or converted into a pirate vessel. As a Pirate Base gains more and more wealth, it will expand its fleet and increase the capacity of its military shipyard. It can also add more layers of armor to salvaged commercial ships, boost commercial engines higher, and lessens the maintenance penalty for commercials converted to military. Garrisons and even STO's start to spawn, and larger Pirate Bases can smuggle advanced tech to close the gap between you and them until you are on par with one-another.  If you let a base flourish, you could soon encounter a fleet of home-made pirate ships that aren't total pushovers in the face of a proper navy.

Pirates will ideally set up in systems with no populations or naval presence, but a lot of civilian traffic. Having a colony won't deter them however, especially if its a new colony with only a couple million people. Stationing a big enough naval force in the region will suppress pirates from spawning to a large extent, and Pirates won't spawn on bodies where they will be detected by sensors. You can also starve them by keeping them from taking prizes, as they have bills to pay just like everyone else. If they go too far into the red, they disband. Pirates will capture crew and colonists to grow their population, which they put to work in the shipyard, making civilian goods, or mining if minerals are present. A larger portion of the population can go towards these efforts on Pirate bases, but that comes with a larger attrition rate. Unscrupulous civilians will actually turn off their transponder to trade with pirates discreetly, giving Pirates an alternative way to earn income.

A Pirate faction's endgame is to seize a colony close by and declare themselves independent, at which point they become a normal NPR.

More NPC controlled organizations like these will really give your Empire more life as well as a chance to gain experience in a part of the game that many players fail to get to in a lot of playthroughs. 
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 01:43:45 PM by Borealis4x »
 
The following users thanked this post: idefelipe, kuhaica, serger, Warer, LiquidGold2, Lord Solar, Gabrote42, Theoatmeal2

Offline liveware

  • Bug Moderators
  • Commodore
  • ***
  • Posts: 742
  • Thanked: 88 times
Re: Pirates
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2021, 05:40:35 PM »
I occasionally spawn a new player pirate faction to prey upon my gloated civilian shipping lines. Someone elsewhere on this forum suggested that once upon a time and I've enjoyed that methodology. It gives me a reason to develop short range patrol ships.
Open the pod-bay doors HAL...
 
The following users thanked this post: BAGrimm, Warer, alex_g

Offline kuhaica

  • Chief Petty Officer
  • ***
  • Posts: 31
  • Thanked: 26 times
Re: Pirates
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2021, 05:42:42 PM »
In my playthrough with multiple player empires all of the same species, they share tech that's 3 generations (sometimes 4 generations) older with all other empires of the same species. I reckon since the framework is already there, a similar ruleset could be made. But yea, I completely agree and would love to see them as a thing you could turn on/off and act like a nuisance to civilian shipping which will then promote you to actually make trade protectors.
 
The following users thanked this post: Warer

Offline serger

  • Commodore
  • **********
  • Posts: 634
  • Thanked: 120 times
  • Silver Supporter Silver Supporter : Support the forums with a Silver subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
Re: Pirates
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2021, 12:36:35 AM »
Second this!
It's really needed, because there is some limit at wich you can play with yourself, SMing small opponents, and this way you just cannot surprise yourself, so it's too boring!

But I think it must be as simple and solid, as it could, so I'd say there must be some general fraction-spawn scheme to make unstable rebel-rogue fractions of any race with, say, decent militancy (or it can be new race stat - smth like loyalty or unanimity, to use with militancy as rebel chance multiplier).

I think they must use the same engine and beam weapon techs as you, because otherwise they'll never get your ships boarded.

So, general scheme can be smth like this:

1. Every construction phase might be a check based at racial rebellion factor (instability*militancy[/unanimity]), resulting mutiny events  on any player-controlled race.
2. Every mutiny must eat some racial wealth and raise some infantry GF.
3. If there are any commercial shipping lines and there are tech prerequisites available - this rogue GF can be spawned at new-build pirate base somewhere at small body far from any military and industrial presence, but not so far from civillian routes. Otherwise (and that must be in most cases anyway) they'll spawn at colonies proportional to local rebellion factor (racial rebellion factor / local military presence) and capture it if there is no garrison, otherwise keep silent in defence.
4. Pirate base might include low grav infrastructure, small military shipyard, small MFC and tracking station. From here it will suck on racial wealth, build pirate ships and hunt on civillian ships  to scrap them.

This will give some juicy job for Army and Navy, and will result in less JP-focuced empire defences.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 03:30:24 AM by serger »
 
The following users thanked this post: Warer

Offline Droll

  • Vice Admiral
  • **********
  • D
  • Posts: 1704
  • Thanked: 599 times
Re: Pirates
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2021, 11:55:18 AM »
smth like loyalty or unanimity

Conformity or deviancy sound nicer to me
 

Offline Gabrote42

  • Warrant Officer, Class 2
  • ****
  • G
  • Posts: 69
  • Thanked: 16 times
  • Waiting until I have the Time to play.
Re: Pirates
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2021, 01:33:31 PM »
Would like to see the OP's idea. With an option to turn them off, of course.
The only problem I see is that NPR's don't have dynamic designs yet so extrapolating a warship from a freighter would be super impossible.
Once that happens though...
Everyone asks me why I like The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.  In actuality, my username predates my knowledge of the books.
 

Offline Malorn

  • Sub-Lieutenant
  • ******
  • M
  • Posts: 116
  • Thanked: 23 times
Re: Pirates
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2021, 08:56:36 PM »
I think pirates would be a wonderful addition to the game.

As the OP said, it would provide a reasonable, low-threat enemy, but a constant one. Something to encourage rear line defenses, at least on a certain scale.

It doesn't need to be nearly as complex as the OP would imagine, however.  I would propose a few easy rules to define pirates, which could scale nicely to the endgame.

  • Pirates are allowed to use any equipment you have researched, 50 years after you researched it (an exception for research done with starting instant RP, that would be granted earlier, allowing pirates to appear earlier), this means that you can maintain a tech lead in many different ways, making you always 'ahead' by a certain amount.
  • Pirates can only make ships equal to half the size of your largest military shipyard, meaning that they will focus on smaller ships, as such they will always be quite a bit weaker than the 'heavy' ships the parent civilization may have.
  • Pirates will only establish outposts within one jump of your own systems, and can travel through only stabilized JPs.  Pirates will never have jump drives, meaning you do have some control over where they appear, if you are willing to use jump tenders in every location and have no civilian traffic.
  • Pirate outposts should be established on any body which is not home to a population, and outposts should prefer places as far from populations as possible, only being closer when there are no suitable bodies.
  • Fuel should be a serious limiting factor for pirates, meaning that pirate ships should only leave their outposts when their fuel is full, and fuel generation should be fairly slow overall. This means a decent amount of time can pass between pirate attacks.

I like a lot of the OPs ideas, but I think they are perhaps too complex, or too prone to scaling issues. For example, in my games my smallest military ships are roughly 30k tons, with civilian ships upward of 160k. 1k ships would seem a little bit of a joke in that situation.

Equally I love the boarding and prize rules, but that might be quite complex to code, requiring a lot of new behavior. Whereas something spawning outposts, then ships, would be fairly simple and use most of the existing code in the game.
 
The following users thanked this post: Warer

Offline Borealis4x (OP)

  • Commodore
  • **********
  • Posts: 717
  • Thanked: 141 times
Re: Pirates
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2021, 09:54:54 PM »
I think pirates would be a wonderful addition to the game.

As the OP said, it would provide a reasonable, low-threat enemy, but a constant one. Something to encourage rear line defenses, at least on a certain scale.

It doesn't need to be nearly as complex as the OP would imagine, however.  I would propose a few easy rules to define pirates, which could scale nicely to the endgame.

  • Pirates are allowed to use any equipment you have researched, 50 years after you researched it (an exception for research done with starting instant RP, that would be granted earlier, allowing pirates to appear earlier), this means that you can maintain a tech lead in many different ways, making you always 'ahead' by a certain amount.
  • Pirates can only make ships equal to half the size of your largest military shipyard, meaning that they will focus on smaller ships, as such they will always be quite a bit weaker than the 'heavy' ships the parent civilization may have.
  • Pirates will only establish outposts within one jump of your own systems, and can travel through only stabilized JPs.  Pirates will never have jump drives, meaning you do have some control over where they appear, if you are willing to use jump tenders in every location and have no civilian traffic.
  • Pirate outposts should be established on any body which is not home to a population, and outposts should prefer places as far from populations as possible, only being closer when there are no suitable bodies.
  • Fuel should be a serious limiting factor for pirates, meaning that pirate ships should only leave their outposts when their fuel is full, and fuel generation should be fairly slow overall. This means a decent amount of time can pass between pirate attacks.

I like a lot of the OPs ideas, but I think they are perhaps too complex, or too prone to scaling issues. For example, in my games my smallest military ships are roughly 30k tons, with civilian ships upward of 160k. 1k ships would seem a little bit of a joke in that situation.

Equally I love the boarding and prize rules, but that might be quite complex to code, requiring a lot of new behavior. Whereas something spawning outposts, then ships, would be fairly simple and use most of the existing code in the game.

Well, apparently NPRs can board you in the current version of the game, so that doesn't require any work.

As for ships being too small, remember that pirates should focus on speed and stealth to sneak up on unarmed civilian craft so they can board them. A large ship would not be ideal for this role, and pirates should avoid standup fights anyways.
 
The following users thanked this post: Warer

Offline serger

  • Commodore
  • **********
  • Posts: 634
  • Thanked: 120 times
  • Silver Supporter Silver Supporter : Support the forums with a Silver subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
Re: Pirates
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2021, 04:04:34 AM »
I think they must use not a single-ship doctrine, but a pair of desingn series: fast boarding shuttles + small commercial-engine tenders (with boat bays for boarding shuttles). No need for them to have much weapon - we have enough heavy armed opponents.
 

Offline tobijon

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • t
  • Posts: 91
  • Thanked: 11 times
Re: Pirates
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2021, 05:44:21 AM »
An enemy which mainly uses boarding might be a good idea.
 

Offline Malorn

  • Sub-Lieutenant
  • ******
  • M
  • Posts: 116
  • Thanked: 23 times
Re: Pirates
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2021, 01:15:45 AM »
An enemy which mainly uses boarding might be a good idea.

I honestly think a certain balanced approach might be better. But them uniquely using boarding would be cool.

But seriously, pirates are not going to try to board military ships most times, they will run or fight.
 

Offline Vivalas

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • V
  • Posts: 95
  • Thanked: 32 times
Re: Pirates
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2021, 09:17:00 PM »
Really cool idea, and have thought about this as well ever since VB6. Having 'smuggler' ships in there as well would be pretty cool too. More reason for customs / patrol / interdiction type craft around busy populated planets.

Basic idea for smugglers ties into pirate idea in that a small fraction of civilian commercial ships spawn as "smuggler ships" that take away money you'd had gotten from trade, increase unrest (drugs and illegal substances, weapons, etc.), and funnel the money they make back to pirate factions, making them more powerful over time. Combined with a short and sweet "customs interdiction" order you can set ships with boarding shuttles to and just leave them in busy systems, where they buzz around and board random freighters to inspect and find smugglers.
 
The following users thanked this post: idefelipe, serger, xenoscepter, Warer

Offline Norm49

  • Warrant Officer, Class 1
  • *****
  • N
  • Posts: 76
  • Thanked: 15 times
Re: Pirates
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2021, 09:02:17 PM »
I like this. I always think about having patrol in my system but I never done it since it was just a waste of fuel but with this it wont be. I guess we can make some epic battle with small patrol/gun boat.
 

Offline idefelipe

  • Lieutenant
  • *******
  • Posts: 153
  • Thanked: 75 times
  • Gold Supporter Gold Supporter : Support the forums with a Gold subscription
    2021 Supporter 2021 Supporter : Donate for 2021
    2022 Supporter 2022 Supporter : Donate for 2022
    2023 Supporter 2023 Supporter : Donate for 2023
Re: Pirates
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2021, 04:44:38 AM »
I have started a new playthrough and will try to SM a new Pirate faction using the homerules you posted. Yeah, it will take me ages to micromanage it, but as I am not in a rush I will not care about that.

In this playthrough I am playing slowly, tasting the RP elements like characters, names, development of the colonies, etc. In almost 8 hours I have advanced just 11 years because I am creating somekind of a chronicle and it takes time, but gives a LOT of fun. Specially because I don't play in Sol System, but a new created for this.

So including Pirates using the SM and micromanaging them is something affordable in this save. Will test it and report my advances (although we are still in a very early age and the race barely has started to explore the system.

Thanks a bunch for sharing your ideas. I really would love to see this in the game, will give a new level of realism and fun for the first stages.
 

Offline Borealis4x (OP)

  • Commodore
  • **********
  • Posts: 717
  • Thanked: 141 times
Re: Pirates
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2021, 07:40:25 AM »
I have started a new playthrough and will try to SM a new Pirate faction using the homerules you posted. Yeah, it will take me ages to micromanage it, but as I am not in a rush I will not care about that.

In this playthrough I am playing slowly, tasting the RP elements like characters, names, development of the colonies, etc. In almost 8 hours I have advanced just 11 years because I am creating somekind of a chronicle and it takes time, but gives a LOT of fun. Specially because I don't play in Sol System, but a new created for this.

So including Pirates using the SM and micromanaging them is something affordable in this save. Will test it and report my advances (although we are still in a very early age and the race barely has started to explore the system.

Thanks a bunch for sharing your ideas. I really would love to see this in the game, will give a new level of realism and fun for the first stages.

Please let us know how it goes, it'll be an interesting experiment to see play out.