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Offline Randy (OP)

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Subject
« on: October 05, 2007, 10:42:46 AM »
You could always have the beams taking longer to get to their targets...

Think artillery in the present. Some of the newer automated systems can have 5 or 6 shells in flight at a target 30 km away.

There really is no reason that if the beam could reach out to 10 light seconds that I couldn't fire there. The odds of a hit might be _somewhat_ reduced,  but I could still try.  <img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" />

  And if I was shooting at a immobile target (planet/PDC/base for example) then the odds of a hit wouldn't change much no matter the range. (For aurora, once you are beyond about 1000 km, there really is not much difference to the target size...)
  
All this requires is that the time of impact is on one of the following 5 sec increments...
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 11:15:40 AM by Erik Luken »
 

Offline kdstubbs

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Bureau of Ship Design
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2007, 07:20:14 PM »
I have a real problem with the ability of a ship moving at 10,000 kps being able to change vector sufficiently to generate a miss by a laser.  What is the distance covered by an object attempting to generate a change of position in the y and z axis assuming it is moving along the x axis at 10000 kps.  The object has a certain cross sectional area, which it will have to move out of the line of fire to prevent the ship from taking a hit from the laser.  In the Air Force we talk about jinking an aircraft to try to generate a miss by the in bound AAM or cannon shells.  At a short enough range you cannot generate a miss.  With light speed weapons, what is that distance? Given a certain cross section to the target.  Can I change my position in three dimensions along a vector to cause the laser to miss?

Inside one light second, no amount of lateral motion will generate that miss.  At 10 light seconds?  I don't know but if the object is large enough I doubt it.    I don't know enough math to calculate the vectors and the lateral forces necessary to generate a radical enough course change, while still maintaining the base vector.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by kdstubbs »
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Offline SteveAlt

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Re: Bureau of Ship Design
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2007, 07:45:46 PM »
Quote from: "kdstubbs"
Inside one light second, no amount of lateral motion will generate that miss.  At 10 light seconds?  I don't know but if the object is large enough I doubt it.    I don't know enough math to calculate the vectors and the lateral forces necessary to generate a radical enough course change, while still maintaining the base vector.

At one light second range, the laser will take one second to cover the distance. A ship moving at 4000 km/s can cover four thousand kilometers in that time, or about the distance between Los Angeles and New York, so there should be a very good chance of generating a miss, especially when Aurora ignores those pesky newtonian mechanics.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by SteveAlt »
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Bureau of Ship Design
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2007, 09:32:18 PM »
Quote from: "SteveAlt"
Quote from: "kdstubbs"
Inside one light second, no amount of lateral motion will generate that miss.  At 10 light seconds?  I don't know but if the object is large enough I doubt it.    I don't know enough math to calculate the vectors and the lateral forces necessary to generate a radical enough course change, while still maintaining the base vector.
At one light second range, the laser will take one second to cover the distance. A ship moving at 4000 km/s can cover four thousand kilometers in that time, or about the distance between Los Angeles and New York, so there should be a very good chance of generating a miss, especially when Aurora ignores those pesky newtonian mechanics.

Steve

Hi Steve,

Here's a realistic but not serious question:  Ummmm so how do beam weapons ever hit anything?  Let's say I can jink with velocity of 1% my max velocity , i.e. 40 km/s (even though I cringe at the non-Newtonian nature of what I just said - I should really be talking jink acceleration).  Let's say I'm 0.1 light second range, so my "jink sphere" has a radius of 4km.  If my ship size is ~100m, then the odds of the beam (assume it's much smaller than 100m) hitting me are about (100m/4km)^2 or about 1 in 1600.  At 1 light second it would be naively be 10^2 or 100 times worse, i.e. 1 in 160000.  A more sophisticated argument would say "in order to be unpredictable, the jinking needs to be a random walk, so on average the distance only grows like the square root of the time.  In this case the jink sphere radius would be roughly L*sqrt(t/t0) where L is the length of a jink leg and t0 is the time spent on each jink leg.  So (sqrt(10))^2 is only 10 times as bad or 1 in 16000.

The reason this is "not serious" is that we need beam weapons for game mechanics reasons, so we need to make up some technobabble to make it work :-)  I vote for "sophisticated pattern analysis computers that try to correct for the jink pattern".  This brings up a more serious thought though:

It seems like dodging beam weapons at long range should be an engine tech, rather than an ECM tech.  You could bundle it up into a single "agility" parameter or be more fine-grain:
    A "jink amplitude" engine tech which represents the velocity of the jinking (this should probably be proportional to the max velocity, i.e. rating "1" on a 4000 km/s ship would be twice as good as rating "1" on a 2000 km/s ship).

    A "max jink rate" engine tech which represents the maximum frequency of direction changes in the jink.

    A "course prediction" fire control tech which counteracts the jink rate - this might be something like the number of course changes that can be predicted, i.e. for a course prediction rating of "10" shooting at a target at 1 light second, the target would have to have a jink rate better than 10 jinks/s in order to get any gain from jinking - otherwise the prediction software would "know" exactly where the target would be.  At 0.1 light second the jink rate would have to be better than 100/s in order to generate any uncertainty.
A few ramifications of this idea:
    Long range beam (or anything without terminal fire-control) engagements become a lot more difficult.  This moves balance towards terminal homing missiles and away from beams at long ranges.

    The rate at which you want your ships to jink would be range dependant - you want to jink frequently enough to be unpredictable, but you want your individual jink legs to be as long as possible (to fight the sqrt(t) effect).  This in turn means that long-ranged beam fire can be improved by getting another beam-armed combatant close to the target, forcing the target to jink more rapidly.

    It also hurts point defense at long range, since missiles will be fairly agile.

    High engine speed can become a defensive tech (if jink rate is researched), but it there are more research and manufacturing costs to developing and building the engines to take advantage of it.

    Fighters become more survivable at medium range.

    Jinking might also be used to reduce missile hit probabilities - high agility targets would be harder to hit.

Even though the "tracking speed" and turret techs were designed to abstract away a lot of the above, I think one could argue that those ideas are complementary to the jinking idea - I think tracking speed represents having to physically shift your aim point while jink represents knowing where to aim.

Let me know if you are interested in the above - if you are then I can write down some equations for how the various techs mentioned above would affect hit probabilities at different ranges and send them to you offline.

John
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by sloanjh »
 

Offline Pete_Keller

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Re: Bureau of Ship Design
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2007, 11:00:20 PM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"

Let me know if you are interested in the above - if you are then I can write down some equations for how the various techs mentioned above would affect hit probabilities at different ranges and send them to you offline.

John


John,

Please post them here, I am interested in them.  

The other thing to think about/wave hand at is that part of what ECM is doing is sending out "false Doppler" readings to the sensors, they detect a Doppler shift of "3 units in the Z direction" at 30kkms, and compensate by offsetting the beam weapon .2 degrees. therefor driving the solution away from the optimal one.

Pete
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Pete_Keller »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Bureau of Ship Design
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2007, 08:44:08 AM »
Quote from: "sloanjh"
Here's a realistic but not serious question:  Ummmm so how do beam weapons ever hit anything?  (snip calculations)

The reason this is "not serious" is that we need beam weapons for game mechanics reasons, so we need to make up some technobabble to make it work :). Aurora uses speed as agility, which is obvously a gross simplification. It might be possible to add an agility factor, in the same way as missiles but I am reluctant to open this particular can of worms for a few reasons. Firstly, Aurora doesn't account for the course of the target in relation to the firer. A crossing target would be much harder to hit than one on a parallel course. I ignore this because there is no concept of turn mode or facing in Aurora and I really want it to stay that way. Another reason to avoid getting too complicated is I want the players to be able to comprehend the calculations that go into hitting something so they can consider that when designing a fire control system without having to get out a calculator.

Quote
It seems like dodging beam weapons at long range should be an engine tech, rather than an ECM tech.  You could bundle it up into a single "agility" parameter or be more fine-grain:
    A "jink amplitude" engine tech which represents the velocity of the jinking (this should probably be proportional to the max velocity, i.e. rating "1" on a 4000 km/s ship would be twice as good as rating "1" on a 2000 km/s ship).

    A "max jink rate" engine tech which represents the maximum frequency of direction changes in the jink.

    A "course prediction" fire control tech which counteracts the jink rate - this might be something like the number of course changes that can be predicted, i.e. for a course prediction rating of "10" shooting at a target at 1 light second, the target would have to have a jink rate better than 10 jinks/s in order to get any gain from jinking - otherwise the prediction software would "know" exactly where the target would be.  At 0.1 light second the jink rate would have to be better than 100/s in order to generate any uncertainty.

A few ramifications of this idea:
    Long range beam (or anything without terminal fire-control) engagements become a lot more difficult.  This moves balance towards terminal homing missiles and away from beams at long ranges.

    The rate at which you want your ships to jink would be range dependant - you want to jink frequently enough to be unpredictable, but you want your individual jink legs to be as long as possible (to fight the sqrt(t) effect).  This in turn means that long-ranged beam fire can be improved by getting another beam-armed combatant close to the target, forcing the target to jink more rapidly.

    It also hurts point defense at long range, since missiles will be fairly agile.

    High engine speed can become a defensive tech (if jink rate is researched), but it there are more research and manufacturing costs to developing and building the engines to take advantage of it.

    Fighters become more survivable at medium range.

    Jinking might also be used to reduce missile hit probabilities - high agility targets would be harder to hit.
Even though the "tracking speed" and turret techs were designed to abstract away a lot of the above, I think one could argue that those ideas are complementary to the jinking idea - I think tracking speed represents having to physically shift your aim point while jink represents knowing where to aim.
All the above seems reasonable and it might be possible to keep it relatively simple by exchanging the agility of a ship for speed in all current calculations. However, from a gameplay point of view you need to consider what might happen if we go down this route. At the moment, a missile moving at 8000 km/s is only twice as hard to hit as a freighter moving at 4000 km/s. That is obviously not the case in reality but its become accepted among Aurora players. If we start using agility as the basis for how hard something is to hit, then plainly the missile is going to be a LOT harder to hit whichever way we set it up. Which means the current fire control systems are all going to be no use and will need to be redesigned to operate against a much wider range of possible agility compared to the current possible range of speeds. Given that the whole fire control system works pretty well at the moment, I am reluctant to start taking it apart. In addition, this would swing the game toward missiles and I am not sure I want them to be more dominant. All the weapon types have their uses at the moment and I like the balance between them.

Of course, another option is to have faster than light beam weapons :)

Quote
Let me know if you are interested in the above - if you are then I can write down some equations for how the various techs mentioned above would affect hit probabilities at different ranges and send them to you offline.

if you can come up with a way of doing this without having to radically redesign fire control mechanics than I would be interested to look at it.

Steve
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Bureau of Ship Design
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2007, 01:08:11 PM »
Quote from: "Steve Walmsley"
Quote from: "sloanjh"
Let me know if you are interested in the above - if you are then I can write down some equations for how the various techs mentioned above would affect hit probabilities at different ranges and send them to you offline.
if you can come up with a way of doing this without having to radically redesign fire control mechanics than I would be interested to look at it.

Steve


Hi Steve,

  I understand your reluctance to tinker from a gameplay point of view - that's why I said the initial question wasn't serious.  This is also why I said "let me know if you're interested" - I strongly suspected you wouldn't be :-) ) have done their work.

  There are two gameplay ideas that I liked for the jinking idea: it gives beam weapons a much harder range cutoff that's based on lightspeed and it makes fighters more survivable.  It also makes missiles harder targets though which, as you say, might throw balance too far in favor of missiles.  I wasn't sure if you felt missiles are too weak at this time.  I also liked the idea of needing extra engine tech to add agility to a target.  It would also push things in the direction of high tech having an advantage over low tech.

  The main reason I went so far in the analysis is that the jinking stuff actually seemed to be a pretty simple abstraction for agility effects at long-range - I don't think it would add that much complexity.  I agree with you that the short-range stuff (crossing targets) is well handled by the "tracking speed" abstraction.

  I was going to say "Because of the above I'm happy to let it go", but then I read what your last line actually said about maybe being interested if it wasn't a radical redesign.  Since I suspect there might not be too much redesign needed (basically a few new techs plus an extra multiplicative factor in the hit probability under the covers) I might push into it a little more and see what comes out.  If it looks simple I'll let you know.

One last thing that I realized while typing this: What I really thought was cool here was the idea of "fighters are survivable because they're agile, which is the motivation for building them".  This just gave me an idea for a "cockpit" tech, which I'll go into in a "suggestions" post.

John
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by sloanjh »
 

Offline Michael Sandy

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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2007, 01:03:10 AM »
"Realisticly" hit probabilities should be affected proportional to the square of the velocity.  Double the speed and you quadruple the angular area the ship's jinking would cover with respect to the firer.

Make the odds to hit based on SpeedxDistance, with maybe a factor for how fast the ship can change its acceleration maybe?

After all, a freighter designed to go at one speed should be easier to hit than a warship designed to jink about at the same speed.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Michael Sandy »
 

Offline sloanjh

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(No subject)
« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2007, 08:20:51 AM »
Quote from: "Michael Sandy"
"Realisticly" hit probabilities should be affected proportional to the square of the velocity.  Double the speed and you quadruple the angular area the ship's jinking would cover with respect to the firer.

Make the odds to hit based on SpeedxDistance, with maybe a factor for how fast the ship can change its acceleration maybe?

After all, a freighter designed to go at one speed should be easier to hit than a warship designed to jink about at the same speed.

It's more complicated than that, Michael.  If the jinking is all in the same direction (your freighter example), then the motion is easily predicted and there's no uncertainty.  If it's truly random, then there will be a lot of "backtracking".  This results in the distance of the jinker from its start point going like the square root of the total distance it travels.  The square root in the radius is cancelled by the squaring to get the area that you mentioned, resulting in the angular area of a random path only growing linearly with speed.

OTOH, if the jinker knew exactly when the firer committed to an aim point, then it could jink in a straight line in a random direction.  This would result in the quadratic growth that you mentioned.

John
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by sloanjh »
 

Offline kdstubbs

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beam weapons
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2007, 08:24:49 PM »
Gentlemen,
      Thank you for the analytical piece on jinking.  My whole point was that a ship moving at 4000 kn/s is along a given vector--call it the x axis.  But the jinking would have to be in the y and z axes.  If you keep your velocity constant, then I can predict my lead angle for the shot, but if your moving off axis by a sufficient distance to take you out of the beam path, then I miss.  
      Its obvious that the math is very complicated for someone like me--haven't studied math in over 30 years, so any physics I once had I have probably lost--from the mathmeticians perspective.
      Thank you for the careful analysis and I think you have answered my question.  

Kevin
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by kdstubbs »
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Offline kdstubbs

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Laser Turrets
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2007, 02:48:55 PM »
Just in case you haven't seen this on YouTube, you might want to give it a look.  The Mobile Tactical High Energy Laser ACTD has achieved some very interesting results.  

This is a IR Laser with a beam diameter (optics of 60 cm).  Obviously the system has a limited range, and might serve as the basis for a point defense laser turret.

Kevin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVxZ9IHT ... re=related

This doesn't even begin to approach the capabilities of the Airborne Laser under development by the USAF
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by kdstubbs »
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Offline Shinanygnz

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Re: Laser Turrets
« Reply #11 on: November 25, 2007, 12:28:36 PM »
Quote from: "kdstubbs"
Just in case you haven't seen this on YouTube, you might want to give it a look.  The Mobile Tactical High Energy Laser ACTD has achieved some very interesting results.  

This is a IR Laser with a beam diameter (optics of 60 cm).  Obviously the system has a limited range, and might serve as the basis for a point defense laser turret.

Kevin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVxZ9IHT ... re=related

This doesn't even begin to approach the capabilities of the Airborne Laser under development by the USAF


Cool.  I'd like to see how it performs against a normal salvo of rockets rather than just the one though, and also how much effect a dank, rainy or foggy night has on its performance.  Still, a step in the right direction.

Stephen
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by Shinanygnz »
 

Offline kdstubbs

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Beam Weapons
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2007, 09:40:32 PM »
The system has already engaged multiple Katyushka rockets in flight simultaneously.  They were engaged and destroyed in sequence.  As were the three mortar round barrage.  

Your point about dark and rainy or foggy conditions is well taken and for obvious reasons--in those conditions I would depend upon the CRAM using the Vulcan Phalanx 20mm Gatling gun mounted on a ground mount.  I
Kevin
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by kdstubbs »
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