Give Player Controll Over Civilian Space Sector

[Ozlath (OP)]

I think a good way to deal with the problem off eternally growing Civilian Shipping lines is to give the player a way of manually designating how big it can become, essentially hardcapping different variables like for example:
Amount of Ships
Amount of Civilian Shipping companies
Amount of Ships of a certain sort: 8 Colony ships, 5 Trading/Cargo ships
Maybe even separate Trading ships from Cargo ships, where trading is for civilian Trade goods and Cargo is for both Trade goods AND Commercial Sector Shipping requests.

I think this will make the game lose one more of the soft campaign stopping problems, also it would make it more efficient and less blunt as just simply hard shutting down all Civ Shipping from expanding at all.

Love the game BTW

[Jorgen_CAB]

In addition to some of that I also think there are ways to optimise how trading in the game works to reduce the strain on the CPU. It really should be doable to make the calculation less intense by somewhat changing the mechanics. There really should not be that big of a deal to have thousands of civilian traffic with today's computer power.

One way could also be to multi thread this part of the game and allow the civilians to calculate in a thread of its own. Allow it to calculate in the pace it can and apply new orders as they become available to the main engine of the game. I see no reason for issues of some civilian ships take a few cycles longer to get a new order once in a while because the background thread is overworked sometimes. The player will stop time at some point and the background thread will eventually catch up... at least the player will not really notice these delays other than some civilian ships standing around waiting for an order for a while longer at times... most likely most player will not even notice that either.

The game mechanics could also be changed and ships could be merged into smaller groups when there are big demands and split apart when there are more but smaller demands. This would then reduce the calculations needed for path finding which probably is one of the more CPU intensive part of the calculations.

Another thing could also be creating trade nodes... every system would have a main trade node decided of the number of trade and the types of stations present. Once the trade node is established then you can also establish trade lanes where most trade will go. Every location in a system will only draw trade from its local node. Every trade lane should then have a major nodes from witch minor node draw their demand. The hierarchy of nodes could be pretty much endless and only be limited of the size of an empire in some fashion.
Goods are only every transferred between one not to another and finally from a local not to a system location.

Ships would then be assigned to trade lanes or local system transfer and will then perform that duty unless there is more demand on a specific node or system for more trade crafts at which time the game will reassign ships if necessary.

In my opinion this would help on pathing as that is more or less pre determined routes. It would also be a bit more realistic for the game to work this way as this is how most logistics and trade work in real life as well.

You would then see smaller cargo ships for local system distribution and super large cargo haulers for large trade nodes where one ship could carry many different trade goods at the same time. I would assume the moving population would work just fine in exactly the same way.

[RougeNPS]

Isnt Aurora still Single-Threaded?

[Froggiest1982]

I would love player controlled trade nodes. It could be established with a structure similar to the admin command and handled by Sectors (so we could incentivate creation of more of them) and you could drag in ships directly from the civilian list.

Eventually a new Trade Node screen similar to the Sector one could be created of you dont want to link it to sectors

[Froggiest1982]

Isnt Aurora still Single-Threaded?

Yes

[Jorgen_CAB]

Isnt Aurora still Single-Threaded?

Yes... but that does not mean it have to be. It is pretty easy to multi thread as long as you make it very simple and don't share memory between threads where you write. Reading memory between threads is generally OK if you can keep it simple.

[Jorgen_CAB]

I would love player controlled trade nodes. It could be established with a structure similar to the admin command and handled by Sectors (so we could incentivate creation of more of them) and you could drag in ships directly from the civilian list.

Eventually a new Trade Node screen similar to the Sector one could be created of you dont want to link it to sectors

You probably could find this as rather useful for player logistical use as well to reduce micromanagement. The system could be expanded to incorporate both mineral, trade goods, infrastructure and planet buildings all in one system.

If a player want to disable the civilian traffic the player could themselves build all the "civilian ships" and just assign them to these trade routes and the system will automatically load and unload based on demands.

The player could mainly be in control of building up the trade node network much like sectors with trade station levels and assign the relationship between them. The AI probably could cheat a bit and upgrade/downgrade based on the most convenient trade network needs over time.

If I make a demand on a planet that demand will be placed on the local node and then up the hierarchy and the system would make sure that the right stuff is eventually delivered to the location in question by the local distribution network. Obviously some system don't have a local trade node so some trade nodes will still service other systems close by.

But I could see such a system as an improvement to the game in more ways that just civilian traffic but for all transportation of goods from minerals to supplies and even ammunition. The player only need to make sure the system is greased by the right amount of ships and make sure to build of the infrastructure to create the nodes and then it can simply live of its supply and demand.

A player can still make separate transportation routes but I think such should be more expensive in terms of wealth to create rather than use the trade network who should be much more efficient, but sometimes economic efficiency is not as important as strategic efficiency. This way you could introduce a wealth cost for manual transportation of goods no matter what it is but using the trade network is more or less free except for the fuel.

I think all ships should pay fuel costs, even civilian ships should cost fuel. If there are no fuel available to the civilian fleet it will halt moving, that would also mean that civilian fuel harvesters do something and not just deliver some wealth.

[xenoscepter]

I would love player controlled trade nodes. It could be established with a structure similar to the admin command and handled by Sectors (so we could incentivate creation of more of them) and you could drag in ships directly from the civilian list.

Eventually a new Trade Node screen similar to the Sector one could be created of you dont want to link it to sectors

You probably could find this as rather useful for player logistical use as well to reduce micromanagement. The system could be expanded to incorporate both mineral, trade goods, infrastructure and planet buildings all in one system.

If a player want to disable the civilian traffic the player could them self build all the "civilian ships and just assign them to these trade routes and the system will automatically load and unload based on demands.

If I make a demand on a planet that demand will be placed on the local node and then up the hierarchy and the system would make sure that the right stuff is eventually delivered to the location in question by the local distribution network. Obviously some system don't have a local trade node so some trade nodes will still service other systems close by.

But I could see such a system as an improvement to the game in more ways that just civilian traffic but for all transportation of goods from minerals to supplies and even ammunition. The player only need to make sure the system is greased by the right amount of ships and make sure to build of the infrastructure to create the nodes and then it can simply live of its supply and demand.

A player can still make separate transportation routes but I think such should be more expensive in terms of wealth to create rather than use the trade network who should be much more efficient, but sometimes economic efficiency is not as important as strategic efficiency. This way you could introduce a wealth cost for manual transportation of goods no matter what it is but using the trade network is more or less free except for the fuel.

I think all ships should pay fuel costs, even civilian ships should cost fuel. If there are no fuel available to the civilian fleet it will halt moving, that would also mean that civilian fuel harvesters do something and not just deliver some wealth.

 - Maybe have an installation for this, with a radius and pop requirement? Logistics Hub / Station & Trade Hub / Outpost. Have the Station and Outpost be In-System only and require a planet to have at least one of the two to perform those functions. After all, disabling civilian stuff is not locked after game generation, so it would be possible to have both, possibly even simultaneously. Mind you that'd be micro hell to have both, but having the option is nice and since it's already there...

[Jorgen_CAB]

I would love player controlled trade nodes. It could be established with a structure similar to the admin command and handled by Sectors (so we could incentivate creation of more of them) and you could drag in ships directly from the civilian list.

Eventually a new Trade Node screen similar to the Sector one could be created of you dont want to link it to sectors

You probably could find this as rather useful for player logistical use as well to reduce micromanagement. The system could be expanded to incorporate both mineral, trade goods, infrastructure and planet buildings all in one system.

If a player want to disable the civilian traffic the player could them self build all the "civilian ships and just assign them to these trade routes and the system will automatically load and unload based on demands.

If I make a demand on a planet that demand will be placed on the local node and then up the hierarchy and the system would make sure that the right stuff is eventually delivered to the location in question by the local distribution network. Obviously some system don't have a local trade node so some trade nodes will still service other systems close by.

But I could see such a system as an improvement to the game in more ways that just civilian traffic but for all transportation of goods from minerals to supplies and even ammunition. The player only need to make sure the system is greased by the right amount of ships and make sure to build of the infrastructure to create the nodes and then it can simply live of its supply and demand.

A player can still make separate transportation routes but I think such should be more expensive in terms of wealth to create rather than use the trade network who should be much more efficient, but sometimes economic efficiency is not as important as strategic efficiency. This way you could introduce a wealth cost for manual transportation of goods no matter what it is but using the trade network is more or less free except for the fuel.

I think all ships should pay fuel costs, even civilian ships should cost fuel. If there are no fuel available to the civilian fleet it will halt moving, that would also mean that civilian fuel harvesters do something and not just deliver some wealth.

 - Maybe have an installation for this, with a radius and pop requirement? Logistics Hub / Station & Trade Hub / Outpost. Have the Station and Outpost be In-System only and require a planet to have at least one of the two to perform those functions. After all, disabling civilian stuff is not locked after game generation, so it would be possible to have both, possibly even simultaneously. Mind you that'd be micro hell to have both, but having the option is nice and since it's already there...

Yep... I just edited that into my above post as well.. 

In my opinion this system would replace the current civilian system as it would use this system as well as the player... even for the AI but the AI would build this more freely as needed. Having predetermined trade routes makes ship pathing way easier to calculate and very busy trade routes can use huge hauler ships by the civilian corporations to reduce lag in CPU power as well.

[Droll]

- Maybe have an installation for this, with a radius and pop requirement? Logistics Hub / Station & Trade Hub / Outpost. Have the Station and Outpost be In-System only and require a planet to have at least one of the two to perform those functions. After all, disabling civilian stuff is not locked after game generation, so it would be possible to have both, possibly even simultaneously. Mind you that'd be micro hell to have both, but having the option is nice and since it's already there...

Could instead be a new form of Naval Admin called Shipping Line. Completely remove civilian auto construction and instead have it so the player can put ships with cargo/passenger capacity under that admin and they'll act like civilian freighters and whatnot, earning income and moving trade goods. You could also use the trade node stuff that's been suggested with this as well for bonus points.

[xenoscepter]

- Maybe have an installation for this, with a radius and pop requirement? Logistics Hub / Station & Trade Hub / Outpost. Have the Station and Outpost be In-System only and require a planet to have at least one of the two to perform those functions. After all, disabling civilian stuff is not locked after game generation, so it would be possible to have both, possibly even simultaneously. Mind you that'd be micro hell to have both, but having the option is nice and since it's already there...

Could instead be a new form of Naval Admin called Shipping Line. Completely remove civilian auto construction and instead have it so the player can put ships with cargo/passenger capacity under that admin and they'll act like civilian freighters and whatnot, earning income and moving trade goods. You could also use the trade node stuff that's been suggested with this as well for bonus points.

 - No. Keeping the current system and adding a new one on top of it is better. The current system is a good representation of a free market and is already toggleable by default anyway. I would be against having a Naval Command, though. I'd rather it work more like a Sector Command or an Academy Commandant in terms of officers, maybe give civilian admins more to actually do.

[RougeNPS]

I would be in favor of this.

[Froggiest1982]

I think all ships should pay fuel costs, even civilian ships should cost fuel. If there are no fuel available to the civilian fleet it will halt moving, that would also mean that civilian fuel harvesters do something and not just deliver some wealth.

Agree on everything but this. Just concerned of the eventual bugs/errors due to ships stranded offshore by lack of fuel. It's not a no, just thinking could be looked at once the new system is in place (if it will ever be).

From your post also I like one idea, just not sure if you meant it the way I do. So basically I think in this new system the player could be in charge of populating the civilian sector and also its ships meaning you will have to build them and then assign. Once in the new group/admin they will act like the civilian do now pretty much also following the same rules.

- Maybe have an installation for this, with a radius and pop requirement? Logistics Hub / Station & Trade Hub / Outpost. Have the Station and Outpost be In-System only and require a planet to have at least one of the two to perform those functions. After all, disabling civilian stuff is not locked after game generation, so it would be possible to have both, possibly even simultaneously. Mind you that'd be micro hell to have both, but having the option is nice and since it's already there...

Could instead be a new form of Naval Admin called Shipping Line. Completely remove civilian auto construction and instead have it so the player can put ships with cargo/passenger capacity under that admin and they'll act like civilian freighters and whatnot, earning income and moving trade goods. You could also use the trade node stuff that's been suggested with this as well for bonus points.

 - No. Keeping the current system and adding a new one on top of it is better. The current system is a good representation of a free market and is already toggleable by default anyway. I would be against having a Naval Command, though. I'd rather it work more like a Sector Command or an Academy Commandant in terms of officers, maybe give civilian admins more to actually do.

Agreed

[Jorgen_CAB]

I think all ships should pay fuel costs, even civilian ships should cost fuel. If there are no fuel available to the civilian fleet it will halt moving, that would also mean that civilian fuel harvesters do something and not just deliver some wealth.

Agree on everything but this. Just concerned of the eventual bugs/errors due to ships stranded offshore by lack of fuel. It's not a no, just thinking could be looked at once the new system is in place (if it will ever be).

From your post also I like one idea, just not sure if you meant it the way I do. So basically I think in this new system the player could be in charge of populating the civilian sector and also its ships meaning you will have to build them and then assign. Once in the new group/admin they will act like the civilian do now pretty much also following the same rules.

Regarding fuel I think that would become a none issue... as each ship know the distance of travel and every trade node should also be carrying fuel and ships would refuel every time they dock at a trade node fuel should never be an issue. If a ship can't get enough fuel from a node it will have to wait there until fuel arrives as fuel would automatically be requested by the node. Trade nodes will also be supplied by civilian fuel harvesters so by extension it could mean that your ships use "free" fuel as well not just the civilian ships.

In terms of civilian ships I think that "civilian" corporations would still build ships that are assigned to the trade system and they earn money in the same way moving planetary trade goods. Players own ships should not move planetary trade goods (unless you selected the option to not use civilian corporations perhaps) but only things such as buildings, minerals, supplies etc. The Civilian ships will move buildings, minerals, civilian trade goods, fuel, population etc but not military supplies and ammunition.

It would just be the same system but there would still be a distinction between what use civilian and governmental commercial designs can do.

I also think that adding a wealth cost for manual use of commercial designs would also be more appropriate in this environment... I really would like to see commercial designs not assigned to the trade system to have a wealth cost when used.