Author Topic: So I met my first NPR...  (Read 6013 times)

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Offline Revenant342 (OP)

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So I met my first NPR...
« on: August 25, 2019, 02:22:01 PM »
Tried to establish peaceful relations, but they went and blew up my survey ship.   My fleet was about 10-15 years behind tech except for some half-trained beam frigates I'd recently built, but I decided to do a punitive expedition and hope for the best.   Managed to take out most of their navy (as far as I can tell) without losses despite being significantly out-massed by defeating them in detail, but I've hit a brick wall when it comes to their planet.

They've got 5 PDCs there, two of which can throw 47 AMMs out every 5 seconds out to about 30Mkm, which is waaay too much for my point defense.   It's also more than I can push a salvo through with my current throw weight of 6x6 size-6 ASMs.   Should I just blockade the planet until I can get a more modern fleet up that can either push a salvo through or eat the AMMs with PD?

Second, I'm playing with generated NPRs only, so this *should* mean that this is their only system, right?  I'm concerned that if I wait too long they'll spread, and my fleet's spread pretty thin right now sitting on the planet outside missile range and guarding the jump point and will need to be recalled for maintenance in about a year.   I've got about a dozen contacts my survey ship spotted that remain unaccounted for and since I've been through the entire system, I assume they're in an adjacent system I haven't discovered yet creating mischief.   
 

Offline misanthropope

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2019, 07:23:47 PM »
the most efficient solutions (other than just knowing in advance that you need that much point defense) exploit deficiencies in the AI.  is that somewhere you're willing to go? 

or you could just tank it.  those things rarely carry enough ammo for more than 100, 150 volleys of AMM spam *rolls eyes*.
 

Offline Revenant342 (OP)

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2019, 11:31:20 PM »
I thought up some ways to cheese it like making a little Corvette that's faster than their missiles (they're only 34k speed) and just letting them launch on it until they run out, but I'd rather not do that sort of thing.

I found the rest of their ships and wiped them out, so now I feel pretty confident just camping the planet until my next generation of ships and equipment get to the front.   The missiles I was using were severely dated and only did 40km/s, newest engine gives me 60km/s which ought to be a lot harder to intercept.   I also whipped up an orbital bombardment variant that trades agility and some range for a point of armor, so I'll see how that goes.   

Does attacking PDCs with missiles cause planetary damage, though?  I don't want to accidentally glass the place.   It's actually got about a 30% stronger EM/Thermal signal than my own homeworks, so I'm hoping for some juicy infrastructure.
 

Offline xenoscepter

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2019, 12:03:58 AM »
40 km/s on your missiles!? Well there's your problem buddy. ;D

The slowest missile I've ever put into production were 300 km/s. Not the slowest I've ever designed, mind you, just the slowest I've ever put into service with my navy. Ya need moar speed, matey! My Conventional Engine torpedoes are quicker, and my Conventional Engine ships could blast those outta the sky with ease. Not trying to mean, I mean it good humor, but you should have a Size 3 missile at Conventional Engine Tech and no boost tech pushing a 2-Rated Warhead around at about 300 km/s w/o MSP in Agility. At Nuclear Thermal w/ 1.25x Boost, a slow Size 10 missile is moving anywhere from 6,000 km/s to 9,000 km/s.

This is my Apophis SLASM (Space-Launched Anti-Ship Missile). It uses x2 Warhead Power per MSP Tech, Missile Agility 20 per MSP Tech, Nuclear Thermal Engine Tech and has a Res 60 Active Sensor w/ 230,000 km range.

Code: [Select]
Apophis SLASM Speed: 6,000 km/s   End: 270.6m    Range: 97.4m km   WH: 4    Size: 10    TH: 24/14/7
This is my Frontier Torpedo, it can be built from Turn One in a Conventional Start if you SM Add an Ordinance Factory.

Code: [Select]
Frontier Torpedo Speed: 300 km/s   End: 710.2m    Range: 12.8m km   WH: 2    Size: 3    TH: 1/0/0
Aurora is a hard game, but keep at it!  :) You'll eventually get there.
 

Offline misanthropope

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2019, 09:08:21 AM »
your corvette idea hinges on the same basic factor:  the NPR is *going* to fire if you present it a target.  if you dont want to use the CT you probably wont want to use this, but hey there's different opinions on what is cheesy.

you build "sawdust missiles", just the cheapest possible things, minimum power engines (which give lots of range) and empty space.  launch those things at the pdcs from far enough away that they dont launch all their AMMs at *you* while you are getting into position.  the AI will launch AMM at them, generally several AMM at each which is beyond absurd.  FWIW a hypothetical human running the defense wouldnt know if the missiles weren't small engine high warhead missiles that *need* to be targeted- i personally use missiles of that type for a Gallicite-inexpensive PDC solution.

it feels bad because you're trading missile for missile, but the missiles are so ridiculously cheap that it's just an illusion.
 

Offline Revenant342 (OP)

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2019, 12:25:41 PM »
Sorry, I meant 40kkms, new ones are 60kkms.   Both are size-6 with about a 220mkm range and 9-damage warheads.   I've had to pull my fleet back out of the system temporarily due to a glaring oversight in my fire control setup, though.   The enemy deployed some 1,000-ton FACs that my 3,000-ton fire control can't target at the range they launch from, which is about 50mkm, and they're too fast to overtake on the return leg.   So, it looks like I'm going to need to refit my brand-new class of DDGs with a third fire control the second they clear the slipway to counter that, haha.   Well, live and learn.   

I'm way behind on ordnance production as well, only had 50 ordnance factories on Earth at the start of the war and now we're three months on and I'm struggling to churn out enough missiles to arm my new ships with the latest designs, while my older ships are leaving their overhauls with missiles 3 generations out of date from the reserve stocks.

It's a little grating that I've destroyed almost a million tons of enemy shipping without even taking shield damage, but am currently getting DDGs crippled by measly little FACs because they're tossing 60+ salvos at me and saturating my PD.   
 

Offline Michael Sandy

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2019, 01:08:07 PM »
There are a few ways of dealing with enemy AMMs of differing levels of cheese.

1:  Use size 1 missiles to bleed the enemy of AMMs.  There are a couple variants of this, box launcher size 1s as your main attack, you are committing to having fairly short range on your missiles, period.  Or use outright decoy missiles.  If magazine space is a premium, have a missile that is either nothing but engine, or perhaps .51 MSP armor and the rest engine (and fuel).  If missile cost is more a problem, create a bunch of missiles that have .3 power engines, the cheapest possible missile you can make.  Either fire them from a waypoint, or if you have oversized fire controls and sensors and/or a forward observer, use that.  If you fire decoy missiles in single missile volleys, spread out over time, you can often make the enemy waste 3 AMMs killing a decoy that cost 1/10 or less of what a regular 1 MSP missile cost.

2:  Discover the range of the enemy missiles and dance at the edge of it.  Draw fire, they retreat out of range so that they explode pointlessly.  Alternatively, probe their AMM range with a shielded warship and simply have it retreat once it has taken some hits.  This works if you have less precise information about the exact range of their missiles.

3:  For beating static defenses, there is time on target missiles.  Assuming you know, roughly, the range that AMMs will be used against ships, you pick a 2nd stage that separates somewhat beyond that range, with a slow first stage.  You then fire hundreds upon hundreds of missiles from a ship moving at the same speed as the first stage, so that they all separate at the same time.  Then, instead of trying to defeat the enemy magazines you are attempting to overwhelm their fire controls.

4:  Use wild weasels to beat the enemy missiles with sheer speed.  A downside is that the enemy won't fire more missiles than it thinks will kill the target until the missiles run out of fuel, so you would have to do a lot of fuel intense and micro intense maneuvers to run them out of missiles.

5:  Have cloaked point defense ships whose cross-section is significantly less than 50 tons.  Have them group with the occasional sacrificial ship/fighter with cross-section greater than that.  So if the enemy actives can detect a 50 ton ship at 20 million km, but your cloaked ships have a 30 ton cross-section, they will have a significant margin.  If your point defense is sufficient to protect whatever is targeted, they can bleed the enemy of missiles that way, while staying out of range themselves.  You can also bleed them of anti-ship missiles by pairing railgun fighters with larger ships, bleeding them of anything linked to an anti-ship fire control.

6:  Least cheesiest, simply have enough point defense to reliably shoot down their AMM volleys.  It is more expensive, and there will likely be some leaks.  Then, you won't need long ranged missiles at all, but can have missiles that have more boom per BP.
 

Offline Revenant342 (OP)

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #7 on: August 27, 2019, 05:42:57 AM »
Ended up going with the armored bombardment missiles and it worked out, cleared all the PDCs and now just have to deal with the ground troops.   Tried bombarding them with my last-gen AMMs, trying to limit collateral damage, but they're still at 402 strength after 3 volleys and I've dropped the planet's surface temp by 3 degrees.   I've got a division of Assault and MI each, hope that'll be enough!
 

Offline misanthropope

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #8 on: August 27, 2019, 09:04:08 AM »
well you're gonna need some replacement battalions, but you should be ok.

i have found relatively even engagements to generate experience for my ground officers at really eye-opening rates, to the point that i'll lift troops off if my advantage comes to exceed 2:1.  i cant model it mathematically, and i don't know the rules in detail, but it seems quite efficient to build some replacement battalions and essentially launder those into permanently increased combat power.  'specially since you can then transfer the leaders from your assault troops to your garrison units; i generally find the garrison requirement more difficult to meet than the actual conquest.
 

Offline Revenant342 (OP)

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #9 on: August 27, 2019, 04:58:04 PM »
Yeah, I ended up having to ship in a couple extra brigades of Garrison troops to meet the occupation requirement.   Took the planet with minimal casualties because it seems they were still at basic troop modifier tech.   I'll have to plan for the replacement battalions in the future, though.   Had 4 but didn't bring them because I forgot to put cargo handling systems on my troop ships.   Corrected that with my new class, though.   They can load a whole division in 8 hours.   

The planet was a *great* haul.   3 billion pop which is more than my whole empire, and more factories than my homeworld.   Plus, 500k-1m of every resources at . 7-1 exploration across the board, AND the planet next door has 30-50 MILLION Duranium, Corundium, and Sorium at . 9+.

A couple questions:

First, can mesons be used against ground troops in the open from orbit?  Designing a fleet of smaller, faster, armed dropships with cryo drop pods and was thinking of slapping a dual meson turret on them for dual-purpose PD and ground support.  Would be nice to take out their ground forces without the collateral of nukes, because the planet I just took is *slightly* irradiated right now.   

Second, as far as I can tell I've completely defeated the enemy.   Planet surrendered, got reparations, and their three survey ships they had hiding joined me, but their flag is still on the map on several systems that were revealed to me in the surrender and I still have them as a diplomatic contact.   Is that just how it is?
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2019, 08:21:12 PM »
Their flag is on the map because you haven't changed it.  Same with diplomacy.  Aurora isn't 100% integrated across its various windows, not to mention that your empire is certainly not omniscient.
 

Offline Revenant342 (OP)

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2019, 08:56:40 PM »
Oh, so I need to manually remove the flags from my map and delete the diplo contact?  I remember a "delete race" button on there somewhere now that I think about it.  How's that work if I missed a colony of theirs and they're still actually in existence?
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2019, 12:21:03 PM »
Yeah don't use delete race until you're sure you've actually got them all. One colony (even a HW) surrendering doesn't mean that the NPR won't continue the "fight" from other colonies.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2019, 12:22:02 PM »
Oh, so I need to manually remove the flags from my map and delete the diplo contact?  I remember a "delete race" button on there somewhere now that I think about it.  How's that work if I missed a colony of theirs and they're still actually in existence?

Just set the system on the galactic map to your race to remove the flag.
 

Offline Revenant342 (OP)

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Re: So I met my first NPR...
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2019, 01:42:39 PM »
Thanks guys, got the flags removed.  As far as I can tell they only had the one planet and two civilian mining colonies in the same system I've also taken, but I'll keep exploring their branch before I delete their contact.  I did get war reparations, does that mean I've fully defeated them, or do you get that for each planet you conquer?