Author Topic: Calming the shakes  (Read 15334 times)

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Offline xenoscepter

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2019, 07:22:25 PM »
I'm mostly engaged in Homeworld 1&2: Remastered with the 2.3 Player's Patch Mod. Good Stuff.
 

Offline Kurt

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #46 on: December 11, 2019, 08:45:11 AM »
Actually, Stellaris' woes are worse than ever at the moment, even though the game's gameplay is in the best place it's ever been. Right now, mechanically, Stellaris is absolutely amazing -- especially if played with mods. However, mid-late game performance issues often render the game nigh-unplayable past a certain point, and moreover, the new launcher that Paradox has implemented on all their games is an absolute dumpster fire. Bugs upon bugs, mod load order breaking without obvious cause, mods failing to appear on the list or spontaneously disappearing, the launcher freezing or crashing or failing to start the game... It's a disaster, and one that has left me unwilling to try to muddle through the innumerable launcher issues to play the game.

I haven't had any problems with the new launcher for Stellaris and HOI 4, however, I don't tend to play with a lot of mods, particularly for Stellaris so it's possible the problems are mod related and I just haven't seen them.  I can confirm the mid to late game slow down in Stellaris, though.  It just gets worse and worse, until no matter how determined I am to finish the game I finally give up.  IIRC, Aspec talked about this recently in one of his videos.  He claims Paradox is looking at this issue for the next patch/update, however, he didn't seem very positive that it would be fixed as the slowdown seems to be inherent to the changes they made in the population/planetary production systems.  We'll see.

Kurt
 

Offline Profugo Barbatus

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2019, 10:14:28 AM »
Man, playing Mechwarrior 5 is making me conflicted on whether my first C# campaign will be a UNSC/Halo campaign, or if I want to do a multi-player empire and get some great houses and star league on.

Also jesus does this game throw vehicles at you like candy, I've probably killed 30+ tanks per mek kill, easily. I'm enjoying it, but its hard to show up to a mek fight fresh enough to actually succeed when you just dealt with a constant wave of armor.
 

Offline Deutschbag

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2019, 06:07:45 PM »
You know... While from a "Rule of Cool" perspective I understand the appeal of Mechwarrior/Battletech, I find it really hard to suspend my disbelief about a lot of it. Namely, the given tonnages of vehicles versus battlemechs.

For example, a Bulldog heavy tank has a given tonnage of 60 tons. However, even the smallest of mechs, a Flea, is larger than it -- and yet, a Flea's tonnage is given as a mere 20 tons! That's 1/3rd the weight, despite being noticeably larger in both footprint and of course height. Makes one wonder, what the heck are mechs supposed to be made of?

Going by size alone, comparing 'mechs to the average main battle tank, which tips the scales at 50-60 tons, 'mechs ought to weigh in at closer to 100 tons for a light mech, and something like 400 tons for an Atlas.

Maybe that's nitpicky but it just really bothers me.
 

Offline Cavgunner

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2019, 06:13:27 PM »
Improper scaling has long been one of the cardinal sins of BattleTech, *especially* in the video games.
 
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Offline Deutschbag

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #50 on: December 11, 2019, 06:16:53 PM »
Seems that way. Though, to be fair -- it seems to be a sin of science fiction in general.
 

Offline vorpal+5

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2019, 08:55:49 AM »
Actually, Stellaris' woes are worse than ever at the moment, even though the game's gameplay is in the best place it's ever been. Right now, mechanically, Stellaris is absolutely amazing -- especially if played with mods. However, mid-late game performance issues often render the game nigh-unplayable past a certain point, and moreover, the new launcher that Paradox has implemented on all their games is an absolute dumpster fire. Bugs upon bugs, mod load order breaking without obvious cause, mods failing to appear on the list or spontaneously disappearing, the launcher freezing or crashing or failing to start the game... It's a disaster, and one that has left me unwilling to try to muddle through the innumerable launcher issues to play the game.

Weird, I have no issue with it, despite 74 (from a list of 85) mods active?

No, I'm not as you, thinking that the gameplay is incredible. I would have liked more realism and less lazy abstraction. As I said, I regret the lack of supply/logistic, and this horrible 'above the star' unique spacebase in each system, which seems coming directly from a boardgame abstraction.
 

Offline vorpal+5

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2019, 08:57:49 AM »
You know... While from a "Rule of Cool" perspective I understand the appeal of Mechwarrior/Battletech, I find it really hard to suspend my disbelief about a lot of it. Namely, the given tonnages of vehicles versus battlemechs.

For example, a Bulldog heavy tank has a given tonnage of 60 tons. However, even the smallest of mechs, a Flea, is larger than it -- and yet, a Flea's tonnage is given as a mere 20 tons! That's 1/3rd the weight, despite being noticeably larger in both footprint and of course height. Makes one wonder, what the heck are mechs supposed to be made of?

Going by size alone, comparing 'mechs to the average main battle tank, which tips the scales at 50-60 tons, 'mechs ought to weigh in at closer to 100 tons for a light mech, and something like 400 tons for an Atlas.

Maybe that's nitpicky but it just really bothers me.

ooooh, I never realized that, and that's blatant indeed! We have 20 tons mechs towering above super heavy tanks ...
The whole paradigm anyway is absurd, if you think of it. Mechs would just be big towering target in real life.
 

Offline Hazard

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2019, 12:36:36 PM »
To be fair, the idea that a 20 ton mech could tower over an 80 or 60 ton tank is not completely bonkers, the different structure makes that possible. It's just that if that's the case, you are indeed dealing with a much better target as the armour's probably thinner (to cover a greater area) and the mech is much less stable on practically all terrain. In nearly all cases, a tracked or wheeled vehicle is just much more capable for much lower cost.

But, well, Battletech doesn't care, it's mech vs mech combat.
 
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Offline Deutschbag

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2019, 05:13:11 PM »
It would be funny to see a Battletech-inspired subversion of the mech combat genre where mechs are just trounced every time they are forced to engage standard armored vehicles.  ;D
 

Offline Tikigod

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #55 on: December 13, 2019, 06:28:06 AM »
To be fair, the idea that a 20 ton mech could tower over an 80 or 60 ton tank is not completely bonkers, the different structure makes that possible. It's just that if that's the case, you are indeed dealing with a much better target as the armour's probably thinner (to cover a greater area) and the mech is much less stable on practically all terrain. In nearly all cases, a tracked or wheeled vehicle is just much more capable for much lower cost.

But, well, Battletech doesn't care, it's mech vs mech combat.

Exactly this.

You can't just look at size and go "That must be heavier because it's larger". For one, ground vehicles are much more condensed in design where everything is sat within a foot or two of every thing else, Mech design has a lot more "Empty space" with entire sections of their design dedicated to nothing but support capability just to keep the whole thing working optimally (And why depending on the specific Mech certain things like a leg shot are so devastating), with those sections of the Mech only containing the more basics of functionality like actuators and maybe some heat sinks to assist with passive cooling. And these sections make up a good 35-45% of a Mechs total physical 'size' in relation to the rest of the Mechs design.

But even in BattleTech, the heavier ground vehicles often have more protective armour on a single side than a light mech does across all their body. Mechs traditionally have marginally better structural protection behind the armour which kind of makes sense given that traditional ground vehicles are much more tightly compact with their internals with every inch of space being valuable. If one section of a ground vehicle goes, then traditionally everything goes because it's all so tightly contained. And that is the ultimate weakness of the ground vehicle. If it wasn't for that little detail then they would fundamentally be superior to Mechs in most practical ways outside of mobility.

As a Mech has more physical real estate to spread out internal components within a section without having to sacrifice structural protection before the layers of armour if a section of the Mech is taken out then unless there are secondary detonations like ammo explosions, all the Mech loses is that functionality that particular part of the Mechs design provided (And potentially any connected limbs that may also be lost in cases of losing side torsos).

So in a nutshell....

Your average Mech is less susceptible to being completely taken out of a battle from focused fire, it might lose some components and functionality, but it can still be operationally effective to the mission.

Every traditional ground vehicle will quickly crumble when exposed to focused fire. As soon as one side of the vehicles superior protective armour collapses, the entirety of the vehicle is now exposed and likely to explode at the slightest bit of additional damage taken.

And that's likely a large reasons Mechs were invented and put into use. They sacrifice overall protectiveness for introducing multiple layers of redundancy that can be patched up post-operation.

Side note, Mechs do also have some additional benefits in mobility able to traverse some terrain traditional ground vehicles could not due to the difference in locomotion method, traditional ground vehicles are still dragging themselves along the ground and any object in their linear path is a disruption, Mechs move like humans and other animals by taking steps between two points, any obstruction between those two points doesn't matter providing it can step over it and the next step location offers sufficient stability to support the Mech.

Of course mobility is not the same as stability, yes Mechs offer better mobility but they do so by being significantly less stable.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 06:43:02 AM by Tikigod »
The popular stereotype of the researcher is that of a skeptic and a pessimist.  Nothing could be further from the truth! Scientists must be optimists at heart, in order to block out the incessant chorus of those who say "It cannot be done. "

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Offline Tikigod

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #56 on: December 13, 2019, 06:49:03 AM »
It would be funny to see a Battletech-inspired subversion of the mech combat genre where mechs are just trounced every time they are forced to engage standard armored vehicles.  ;D

Whilst a lot of the video game takes on the series have dialled down vehicles and made them little more than cannon fodder, things like the RogueTech mod for the recent BattleTech strategy game does introduce some of the more disruptive roles of ground vehicles back into the game.

I've lost count on the number of times I've lost a Mech to a ground vehicle that sports enough sheer firepower to take down one of my light mechs or heavily cripple on of my medium Mechs in a single salvo due to the amount of firepower they can bring to the party compared to a typical Mech of similar tonnage.

I have never played the tabletop roots of BattleTech, but given that RogueTech is a effort to reintroduce the elements of the tabletop back into the video game of the same name, I can only imagine such things are also present.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2019, 06:51:33 AM by Tikigod »
The popular stereotype of the researcher is that of a skeptic and a pessimist.  Nothing could be further from the truth! Scientists must be optimists at heart, in order to block out the incessant chorus of those who say "It cannot be done. "

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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #57 on: December 13, 2019, 01:38:44 PM »
Are you talking about the justification for the existence of Mechs inside the BattleTech/MechWarrior universe or are you talking about actual reality here?
 

Offline Tikigod

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #58 on: December 13, 2019, 02:09:21 PM »
Are you talking about the justification for the existence of Mechs inside the BattleTech/MechWarrior universe or are you talking about actual reality here?

Within the context of the discussion in the posts before mine.
The popular stereotype of the researcher is that of a skeptic and a pessimist.  Nothing could be further from the truth! Scientists must be optimists at heart, in order to block out the incessant chorus of those who say "It cannot be done. "

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Offline Profugo Barbatus

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Re: Calming the shakes
« Reply #59 on: December 13, 2019, 10:30:16 PM »
Based on my Tabletop experience playing Megamek, tanks can be pretty close to their Roguetech effectiveness, but I find the better awareness in tabletop seems to make them a bit less devastating, harder to land flanking attacks from SRM Carriers.

The big downside tanks face trying to engage mek's in tabletop is the sheer speed of a light mek vs the tank, the tank just can't build up much in the way of movement debuffs to the mek's incoming fire, whereas my light is going to be giving significant malus's to the return fire from the tank just based on speed. In tabletop, vehicles are also exceptionally prone to motive damage, I'd probably say half or more of my armor kills in Megamek are from crew abandoning an immobilized tank, not from an actual through-armor kill that round.

However, I also play and deploy armor, because 4-6 tanks working as a wolfpack and focusing fire can be acquired at the cost of a medium or heavy mek (Vendettes are my usual go to for the AC/5's) and can usually cause serious issue to even an assault mek, forcing constant piloting checks for excess damage per round. I had a pair of Manticores score a round 3 kill on a heavy mek with some lucky PPC fire that all hit the same side torso, piloting skill failure causing it to fall on said torso which finally destroying it by killing the XL engine inside.