Author Topic: Missile init 405  (Read 1896 times)

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Offline Nibelung44 (OP)

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Missile init 405
« on: October 25, 2013, 03:02:36 AM »
Hi,

I'm still chasing aliens with my expeditionary fleet, flagship Farragut... Commander initiative 405, and he is also the fleet commander.

... and yet, the AMM the ship fires are moving AFTER the enemy incoming ASM. Is it really possible that these missiles are generated by a ship commanded by an Alien with 406+ initiative? I doubt that... yet, all my missiles move AFTER the enemy ASM...

weird, no?
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Missile init 405
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2013, 05:24:06 AM »
Moving after is the desired result right? (allow you to intercept enemy ASMs).

But I don't think missiles use the same mechanics that ship movement does since this would mean any AMM interception is impossible for missiles launcher from ships with less initiative.
 

Offline JacenHan

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Re: Missile init 405
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2013, 09:43:56 AM »
I'm pretty sure missiles are suppose to move at the same time, but don't quote me on that.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Missile init 405
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2013, 12:55:43 PM »
Hi,

I'm still chasing aliens with my expeditionary fleet, flagship Farragut... Commander initiative 405, and he is also the fleet commander.

... and yet, the AMM the ship fires are moving AFTER the enemy incoming ASM. Is it really possible that these missiles are generated by a ship commanded by an Alien with 406+ initiative? I doubt that... yet, all my missiles move AFTER the enemy ASM...

weird, no?

Missiles move in order of descending speed. So faster missiles move sooner.

Steve
 

Offline Nibelung44 (OP)

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Re: Missile init 405
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2013, 03:34:15 PM »
That's it!
 

Offline Paul M

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Re: Missile init 405
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2013, 10:40:15 AM »
Missiles move in order of descending speed. So faster missiles move sooner.

Steve

Steve, can I suggest this is a design element that needs some work.

The basic problem with this has to do with missile interception.  Assuming that the inbound missile is faster than the counter missile and is inside of a range where it will hit the target the next 5 s turn then the counter missile never gets a chance to intercept it.  Even though, in general, the missiles are on reciprocal course and must intercept.

The above leads to yet more size 1 missile spam since the easiest way to get a missile that moves so fast interception is well nigh impossible is with a size 1.  Also because detection range is so short for a size 1 missile it basically it shows up and then hits.

I would suggest the program be altered so that:
1. A check is made if first the inbound anti-ship missile salvo is targeted by counter missiles.
2. If that is a yes, then a check is made if the missiles are converging or chasing (not sure how that could be done but fairly simple ways must exist to compare headings)
3. If the missile is converging then a check should be made if the seperation of the counter missile to the anti-ship missile is < 5*(velocity_anti-ship-missile + velocity_counter-missile)
4. If the missiles are closer than the interception range then a time to intercept is calculated (seperation/(velocity_asm+velocity_aam).
5. The intercept is checked.
6. If sucessful a marker is placed at intercept_time*velocity_asm+initial location

This stops the missiles from being able to avoid being intercepted such as happens now.  The heading check is fairly critical as the missiles have to be converging so the AAM has to be approaching probably in a 45° to 60° cone of the path of the ASM for this simple version to work.   It might infact be easier to do the math for an actual intercept including angle between the missiles as otherwise you basicly have 5 possible choices (converging, chasing, side appraoch, more converging, more chasing) you have to find simple expressions for.

But my last battle I had CMs in space when the magic missile hit.  I'm dubious I would have intercepted many but the current system changes the occasional intercept into exactly 0 intercepts.  In previous battles much the same thing.  Even though CMs where in space they ended up self destructing as the ASMs were faster and I was picking them up very close in.
 

Offline Nibelung44 (OP)

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Re: Missile init 405
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2013, 11:37:31 AM »
Is detection range not the same for missile size 1 to 3, something like that? This is what is written when you design a tech, but it might be wrong.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Missile init 405
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2013, 08:02:38 AM »
Is detection range not the same for missile size 1 to 3, something like that? This is what is written when you design a tech, but it might be wrong.

Everything less than 6 Missile Size Points (MSP) should have the same cross section. 20 MSP = 1 Hull Space.  IIRC.

John
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Missile init 405
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2013, 10:33:19 AM »
Everything less than 6 Missile Size Points (MSP) should have the same cross section. 20 MSP = 1 Hull Space.  IIRC.

John
Missiles size 6  and smaller are detected as .33hs which is a little closer to a size 7 missile (.35hs).  I think the actual logic is detection of whichever is greater, calculated missile size or .33hs.

Charlie
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Narmio

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Re: Missile init 405
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2013, 07:30:39 AM »
Steve, can I suggest this is a design element that needs some work.

The basic problem with this has to do with missile interception.  Assuming that the inbound missile is faster than the counter missile and is inside of a range where it will hit the target the next 5 s turn then the counter missile never gets a chance to intercept it.  Even though, in general, the missiles are on reciprocal course and must intercept.

The above leads to yet more size 1 missile spam since the easiest way to get a missile that moves so fast interception is well nigh impossible is with a size 1.  Also because detection range is so short for a size 1 missile it basically it shows up and then hits.

I would suggest the program be altered so that:
1. A check is made if first the inbound anti-ship missile salvo is targeted by counter missiles.
2. If that is a yes, then a check is made if the missiles are converging or chasing (not sure how that could be done but fairly simple ways must exist to compare headings)
3. If the missile is converging then a check should be made if the seperation of the counter missile to the anti-ship missile is < 5*(velocity_anti-ship-missile + velocity_counter-missile)
4. If the missiles are closer than the interception range then a time to intercept is calculated (seperation/(velocity_asm+velocity_aam).
5. The intercept is checked.
6. If sucessful a marker is placed at intercept_time*velocity_asm+initial location

This stops the missiles from being able to avoid being intercepted such as happens now.  The heading check is fairly critical as the missiles have to be converging so the AAM has to be approaching probably in a 45° to 60° cone of the path of the ASM for this simple version to work.   It might infact be easier to do the math for an actual intercept including angle between the missiles as otherwise you basicly have 5 possible choices (converging, chasing, side appraoch, more converging, more chasing) you have to find simple expressions for.

But my last battle I had CMs in space when the magic missile hit.  I'm dubious I would have intercepted many but the current system changes the occasional intercept into exactly 0 intercepts.  In previous battles much the same thing.  Even though CMs where in space they ended up self destructing as the ASMs were faster and I was picking them up very close in.

A very simple version of this would be to add a new check immediately before a missile impacts to see if any anti-missiles were launched at the missile from the task group the missile's target is in.  Those could then get an intercept chance even if they haven't moved yet, because it's assumed anything from the same TG as the target would be on a reciprocal course.  Conceptually it would be a little like "final fire" PD mode, only for missiles.  Theoretically that shouldn't constitute significant slowdown since there's no actual comparative heading or speed calculations, just a few lookups.

It wouldn't work if your AMM platforms were detached from the main fleet, but it would be something.