Aurora 4x
VB6 Aurora => Bureau of Ship Design => Topic started by: Detros on February 19, 2017, 05:06:05 PM
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Do you see any major flaws in designs of this fleet?
My first attempts were slightly different versions with like 40 % less speed and 40 % more guns but because our neighbours from adjacent system seem to move at 3600 km/s and are trigger happy with 10-power ASMs, I went rather for these faster but still quite armored designs.
So my requirements were something like: 3800 km/s, 30b km range, 3 years of maintenance, 1 year of deployment, 3 months full power, differentiated armament for all three types of beam PD settings. Reserve active sensor and possibly also basic passive ones on all ships. AFR under 100 %, 2 engines, 2+ fire controls, min 2x more MSP than Max repair. Sizes 4950 and 9950 for frigates and destroyers, respectively. Try to use the same parts whenever possible for easier prebuilding of ship parts.
This crystallized in:
DD Sunbeam, PD max range, long range attacker
Sunbeam IIb class Destroyer 9 950 tons 285 Crew 1990 BP TCS 199 TH 384 EM 360
3859 km/s Armour 6-41 Shields 12-240 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 10 PPV 49.1
Maint Life 4.67 Years MSP 1250 AFR 79% IFR 1.1% 1YR 94 5YR 1403 Max Repair 270 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 13 months Spare Berths 2
Kay & Heath 384 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2) Power 384 Fuel Use 20,03% Signature 192 Exp 8%
Fuel Capacity 500 000 Litres Range 45,2 billion km (135 days at full power)
Mitchell-Pope Gamma R240/240 Shields (6) Total Fuel Cost 60 Litres per hour (1 440 per day)
Twin Lynch Manufacturing 15cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (RG22.8) (5x2) Range 180 000km TS: 15000 km/s Power 12-6 RM 3 ROF 10 6 6 6 4 3 3 2 2 2 1
Fox-Reeves Syndicate Fire Control S06 96-15000 H70 (2) Max Range: 192 000 km TS: 15000 km/s 95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Shah-Gordon Stellarator Fusion Reactor PB-1 P6 (5) Total Power Output 30 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Lee Design Bureau Active Search Sensor MR1-R1 AAS22.4 (70%) (1) GPS 23 Range 1,8m km MCR 195k km Resolution 1
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
FF Sunstone, PD max range, mid range attacker
Sunstone IIb class Frigate 4 950 tons 158 Crew 1249 BP TCS 99 TH 192 EM 180
3878 km/s Armour 3-25 Shields 6-240 Sensors 8/8/0/0 Damage Control Rating 4 PPV 19.64
Maint Life 4.9 Years MSP 631 AFR 49% IFR 0.7% 1YR 44 5YR 653 Max Repair 270 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 13 months Spare Berths 1
Kay & Heath 192 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2) Power 192 Fuel Use 24,33% Signature 96 Exp 8%
Fuel Capacity 300 000 Litres Range 44,8 billion km (133 days at full power)
Mitchell-Pope Gamma R240/240 Shields (3) Total Fuel Cost 30 Litres per hour (720 per day)
Twin Lynch Manufacturing 12cm C4 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (RG22.8) (2x2) Range 120 000km TS: 15000 km/s Power 8-8 RM 3 ROF 5 4 4 4 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Fox-Reeves Syndicate Fire Control S06 96-15000 H70 (2) Max Range: 192 000 km TS: 15000 km/s 95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Shah-Gordon Stellarator Fusion Reactor PB-1 P3.6 (1) Total Power Output 3,6 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Shah-Gordon Stellarator Fusion Reactor PB-1 P6 (2) Total Power Output 12 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Lee Design Bureau Active Search Sensor MR1-R1 AAS22.4 (70%) (1) GPS 23 Range 1,8m km MCR 195k km Resolution 1
Wilkins-Spencer Thermal Sensor TH1-8 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 8m km
Wilkins-Spencer EM Detection Sensor EM1-8 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 8m km
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
DE Sunstorm, PD close range, close range defender
Sunstorm IIb class Destroyer Escort 9 950 tons 278 Crew 2001 BP TCS 199 TH 384 EM 480
3859 km/s Armour 6-41 Shields 16-240 Sensors 8/8/0/0 Damage Control Rating 10 PPV 44
Maint Life 4.69 Years MSP 1257 AFR 79% IFR 1.1% 1YR 93 5YR 1400 Max Repair 270 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 14 months Spare Berths 2
Kay & Heath 384 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2) Power 384 Fuel Use 20,03% Signature 192 Exp 8%
Fuel Capacity 500 000 Litres Range 45,2 billion km (135 days at full power)
Mitchell-Pope Gamma R240/240 Shields (8) Total Fuel Cost 80 Litres per hour (1 920 per day)
Triple Lynch Manufacturing 10cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (RG22.2) (4x3) Range 90 000km TS: 15000 km/s Power 9-9 RM 3 ROF 5 3 3 3 2 1 1 1 1 1 0
Fox-Reeves Syndicate Fire Control S06 96-15000 H70 (2) Max Range: 192 000 km TS: 15000 km/s 95 90 84 79 74 69 64 58 53 48
Shah-Gordon Stellarator Fusion Reactor PB-1 P6 (6) Total Power Output 36 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Lee Design Bureau Active Search Sensor MR1-R1 AAS22.4 (70%) (1) GPS 23 Range 1,8m km MCR 195k km Resolution 1
Wilkins-Spencer Thermal Sensor TH1-8 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 8m km
Wilkins-Spencer EM Detection Sensor EM1-8 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 8m km
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Sunshine, PD automatic only self, main radar
Sunshine IIb class Destroyer Leader 9 950 tons 187 Crew 1645 BP TCS 199 TH 384 EM 720
3859 km/s Armour 9-41 Shields 24-240 Sensors 32/32/0/0 Damage Control Rating 10 PPV 0
Maint Life 4.37 Years MSP 1033 AFR 79% IFR 1.1% 1YR 87 5YR 1310 Max Repair 230.4 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 14 months Spare Berths 1
Kay & Heath 384 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2) Power 384 Fuel Use 20,03% Signature 192 Exp 8%
Fuel Capacity 500 000 Litres Range 45,2 billion km (135 days at full power)
Mitchell-Pope Gamma R240/240 Shields (12) Total Fuel Cost 120 Litres per hour (2 880 per day)
Lamb Kinetics CIWS-200 (4x4) Range 1000 km TS: 20000 km/s ROF 5 Base 50% To Hit
Lee Design Bureau Active Search Sensor MR5-R1 AAS64 (70%) (1) GPS 64 Range 5,1m km MCR 558k km Resolution 1
Mellor-Ingram Active Search Sensor MR20-R16 AAS64 (70%) (1) GPS 1024 Range 20,5m km Resolution 16
Bolton-Manning Active Search Sensor MR41-R65 AAS64 (70%) (1) GPS 4160 Range 41,3m km Resolution 65
Wilkins-Spencer Thermal Sensor TH4-32 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 32 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 32m km
Wilkins-Spencer EM Detection Sensor EM4-32 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 32 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 32m km
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
JDE Sunsteed, PD automatic only self, tender, supplier and reserve tanker
Sunsteed class Jump Destroyer Escort 9 950 tons 209 Crew 1320 BP TCS 199 TH 384 EM 240
3859 km/s JR 3-50 Armour 6-41 Shields 8-240 Sensors 8/8/0/0 Damage Control Rating 10 PPV 0
Maint Life 5.41 Years MSP 1829 AFR 79% IFR 1.1% 1YR 105 5YR 1574 Max Repair 230.4 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 17 months Spare Berths 1
Ferguson-Cameron Manufacturing J10000(3-50) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 10000 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 3
Kay & Heath 384 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2) Power 384 Fuel Use 20,03% Signature 192 Exp 8%
Fuel Capacity 1 000 000 Litres Range 90,3 billion km (270 days at full power)
Mitchell-Pope Gamma R240/240 Shields (4) Total Fuel Cost 40 Litres per hour (960 per day)
Lamb Kinetics CIWS-200 (2x4) Range 1000 km TS: 20000 km/s ROF 5 Base 50% To Hit
Wilkins-Spencer Thermal Sensor TH1-8 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 8m km
Wilkins-Spencer EM Detection Sensor EM1-8 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 8m km
This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes
Basic battlefleet should be like 2x Sunbeam, 3x Sunstone, 2x Sunstorm, 1x Sunshine, 1x Sunsteed
Standard battlefleet should be like 10x Sunbeam, 10x Sunstone, 5x Sunstorm, 2x Sunshine, 2x Sunsteed.
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The electronic hardening is pointless; only Microwave beams deal electronic damage and the AI does not use them.
The auxiliary active sensor isn't very capable; an MCR of 195k with a move speed of 4kkms means a missile traveling 32kkms or more could hit you without being detected. It is not a priority, but personally I'd prefer a larger buffer on the MCR.
The shield quantity is pretty low. Typically, I don't bother with that amount of shields; I just use armor unless i'm prepared to put serious tonnage into shielding. The Sunshine has a lot of tonnage for defenses, you could bring its armor down to 4-6 and give it strong shielding. This would hve the added advantage of protecting weak electronics from shock damage.
You probably don't need 3 separate designs. I'd probably scratch the Sunstone, or rerole the Sunstone as the close PD (with redesigned cheaper fire controls) and scratch the Sunstorm. If you look at the cost breakdown you'll note that you're paying A LOT for those top end fire controls, and the 10cm laser turret ships don't need em.
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You are apparently not using your maximum fire control speed, is there any reason to that?
What speed are the missiles you want to use them against? For your Sunstone to actually get off two shots in area defence mode, the enemy missiles have to be quite slow. And if you only get one shot anyway, you might as well switch to final fire and use smaller guns. I would also drop the second fire control on it, or replace on of them with a cheaper one. On a ship of that size, it is probably a lost course anyway when it sustains damage.
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The electronic hardening is pointless; only Microwave beams deal electronic damage and the AI does not use them.
OK, next gen will be either without it or stay at this level only.
You probably don't need 3 separate designs. I'd probably scratch the Sunstone, or rerole the Sunstone as the close PD (with redesigned cheaper fire controls) and scratch the Sunstorm.
Yes, I got concerned that before I manage to build all those variants with my few shipyards I may be already higher in tech. I will combine Sunstone with Sunstorm.
If you look at the cost breakdown you'll note that you're paying A LOT for those top end fire controls, and the 10cm laser turret ships don't need em.
I noted the higher range but it seemed to me the higher accuracy at short range is worth the difference in price between mid and long range FC.
The auxiliary active sensor isn't very capable; an MCR of 195k with a move speed of 4kkms means a missile traveling 32kkms or more could hit you without being detected. It is not a priority, but personally I'd prefer a larger buffer on the MCR.
On the other hand, as I could not shoot further than those 192k km it seemed pointless to have bigger MCR than my gun range on those reserve ASs.
You are apparently not using your maximum fire control speed, is there any reason to that?
Previous generation of ships was using TS of 6k km/s so jump to 15k km/s seemed decent enough. That combined with space and price constraints led to picking this target speed.
What speed are the missiles you want to use them against? For your Sunstone to actually get off two shots in area defence mode, the enemy missiles have to be quite slow. And if you only get one shot anyway, you might as well switch to final fire and use smaller guns. I would also drop the second fire control on it, or replace on of them with a cheaper one. On a ship of that size, it is probably a lost course anyway when it sustains damage.
So far I got only few data about my foes. No idea how fast their ASMs are because both scouts didn't survive the first volley. But according to distance to enemies and time between the first and the second AMM volley those seemed to be around 40k km/s. With my current tech is 20k km/s max,still.
I think in the end I just need to build few decent ships that can survive few hits even from those ASMs, send them in and only then, once I get more data, I should care about matching my ships against stats of my neighbours.
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Small layer of shields over decent armour isn't necessarily wrong. Any split can work, although personally I tend to keep one of them low. Armour lasts far longer if things go south and can translate into more speed in a nebula. Shields prevent damage entirely, including shock damage, and are superior if damage is spread out over time (the occasional missile leaking through, beam duel at extreme range).
Range of aux sensors: If those are intended to allow missile defence, your own weapon range may not be enough. For maximum range of area defence under all circumstances, you need 5s*((enemy missile speed) + (own ship speed))+(own weapon range).
If final defensive fire while retreating is enough, the higher of (own weapon range) and 5s*((enemy missile speed)-(own ship speed)) is sufficient
Regarding turrets/fire control: I'd use the maximum available tracking speed for anti-missile duty; if that's overkill I wouldn't use turreted weapons at all and stick to 10cm railguns. Turrets with less than maximum speed is something I'd only consider if I encounter very fast enemy ships but rely on something else against missiles.
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On the other hand, as I could not shoot further than those 192k km it seemed pointless to have bigger MCR than my gun range on those reserve ASs.
it isnt about your gun range. you can already detect anything you'd want to detect, pretty much. its about the scenario of being struck by a missile without the ability to fire upon it, owing to how aurora runs detection in 5 second ticks. if the missile starts 200,000 kilometers away, its outside your detect range; say you move 19,000 kilometers towards it, leaving a range of 181,000km; thus a missile capable of traveling 36,000 kps can strike your task group without being detected. And if you don't detect it you cant shoot it with your laser turrets.
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So to intercept a missile
- I detect it in my gun range and then I can start shooting at it immediately
- but if it is outside my gun range one 5s interval and already hitting me the next one I need to detect it on that 1st turn to be able to try to shoot it down during the 2nd turn
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Sunshine has MCR 558k km so that should help with that but yes, the other ships are pretty blind without it.
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Sensor calculations happen after movement. Thus, if you don't detect the missile at the end of a turn, it may move and hit your ship before sensor calculations happen again. Since final fire PD happens the instant the missile would hit you, it is not detected then and therefore can't be shot at.
If you expect their missiles to be faster than you tracking speed, it is a lot more efficient to increase your tracking speed if you are not at the maximum than to have more turrets.
I guess your FC speed tech is at 5k km/s. Thus, increasing your tracking speed from 15k km/s to 20k km/s (increase of 1/3) would increase the size of your FC by 1/3 too, but if your turret tracking tech is on the same level, the increase in the size of your turrets is just 1/10 (of the base gun size, not even the turret size, so actually even less than that). Definitly not a major flaw though.
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Sensor calculations happen after movement. Thus, if you don't detect the missile at the end of a turn, it may move and hit your ship before sensor calculations happen again. Since final fire PD happens the instant the missile would hit you, it is not detected then and therefore can't be shot at.
Except CIWS, they fire and hit no matter what.
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Currently TG "Cerulean Wing Alpha" is getting through 23 (!) volleys of ASMs while the enemy missile ship (probably, still 300M km to go) is also closing in. The TG has got through 6 volleys without being hit, most of volleys consisting of 13x Size 7 ASMs at 21k km/s. SO hit chances are high enough though sure, next generation should higher TS.
It consists of:
- 3x DD Sunbeam IIc
- 1x DL Sunshine IId
- 1x DEJ Sunsteed
- 4x FF Sunstone IId
Used ship designs (all are "Military Vessel for maintenance purposes"):
Sunbeam IIc class Destroyer 9,950 tons 289 Crew 1996.2 BP TCS 199 TH 384 EM 600
3859 km/s Armour 5-41 Shields 20-240 Sensors 1/1/0/0 Damage Control Rating 10 PPV 49.1
Maint Life 4.77 Years MSP 1254 AFR 79% IFR 1.1% 1YR 91 5YR 1358 Max Repair 270 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 16 months Spare Berths 0
Kay & Heath 384 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2) Power 384 Fuel Use 20.03% Signature 192 Exp 8%
Fuel Capacity 500,000 Litres Range 45.2 billion km (135 days at full power)
Mitchell-Pope Gamma R240/240 Shields (10) Total Fuel Cost 100 Litres per hour (2,400 per day)
Twin Lynch Manufacturing 15cm C3 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (RG22.8) (5x2) Range 180,000km TS: 15000 km/s Power 12-6 RM 3 ROF 10 6 6 6 4 3 3 2 2 2 1
Fox-Reeves Syndicate Fire Control S06 96-15000 H70 (2) Max Range: 192,000 km TS: 15000 km/s 67 63 59 56 52 49 45 41 37 34
Shah-Gordon Stellarator Fusion Reactor PB-1 P6 (5) Total Power Output 30 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Lee Design Bureau Active Search Sensor MR1-R1 AAS22.4 (70%) (1) GPS 23 Range 1.8m km MCR 195k km Resolution 1
Sunshine IId class Destroyer Leader 9,950 tons 207 Crew 1681.8 BP TCS 199 TH 384 EM 1440
3859 km/s Armour 6-41 Shields 48-240 Sensors 32/32/0/0 Damage Control Rating 10 PPV 0
Maint Life 4.73 Years MSP 1056 AFR 79% IFR 1.1% 1YR 77 5YR 1159 Max Repair 230.4 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 20 months Spare Berths 1
Kay & Heath 384 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2) Power 384 Fuel Use 20.03% Signature 192 Exp 8%
Fuel Capacity 500,000 Litres Range 45.2 billion km (135 days at full power)
Mitchell-Pope Gamma R240/240 Shields (24) Total Fuel Cost 240 Litres per hour (5,760 per day)
Lamb Kinetics CIWS-200 (5x4) Range 1000 km TS: 20000 km/s ROF 5 Base 50% To Hit
Lee Design Bureau Active Search Sensor MR5-R1 AAS64 (70%) (1) GPS 64 Range 5.1m km MCR 558k km Resolution 1
Mellor-Ingram Active Search Sensor MR20-R16 AAS64 (70%) (1) GPS 1024 Range 20.5m km Resolution 16
Bolton-Manning Active Search Sensor MR41-R65 AAS64 (70%) (1) GPS 4160 Range 41.3m km Resolution 65
Wilkins-Spencer Thermal Sensor TH4-32 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 32 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 32m km
Wilkins-Spencer EM Detection Sensor EM4-32 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 32 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 32m km
Sunsteed class Jump Destroyer Escort 9,950 tons 209 Crew 1320 BP TCS 199 TH 384 EM 240
3859 km/s JR 3-50 Armour 6-41 Shields 8-240 Sensors 8/8/0/0 Damage Control Rating 10 PPV 0
Maint Life 5.42 Years MSP 1829 AFR 79% IFR 1.1% 1YR 104 5YR 1567 Max Repair 230.4 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 17 months Spare Berths 1
Ferguson-Cameron Manufacturing J10000(3-50) Military Jump Drive Max Ship Size 10000 tons Distance 50k km Squadron Size 3
Kay & Heath 384 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2) Power 384 Fuel Use 20.03% Signature 192 Exp 8%
Fuel Capacity 1,000,000 Litres Range 90.3 billion km (270 days at full power)
Mitchell-Pope Gamma R240/240 Shields (4) Total Fuel Cost 40 Litres per hour (960 per day)
Lamb Kinetics CIWS-200 (2x4) Range 1000 km TS: 20000 km/s ROF 5 Base 50% To Hit
Wilkins-Spencer Thermal Sensor TH1-8 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 8m km
Wilkins-Spencer EM Detection Sensor EM1-8 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 8m km
Sunstone IId class Frigate 4,950 tons 151 Crew 1158.4 BP TCS 99 TH 192 EM 480
3878 km/s Armour 3-25 Shields 16-240 Sensors 8/8/0/0 Damage Control Rating 4 PPV 19.64
Maint Life 4.87 Years MSP 585 AFR 49% IFR 0.7% 1YR 41 5YR 611 Max Repair 202 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 15 months Spare Berths 1
Kay & Heath 192 EP Magneto-plasma Drive (2) Power 192 Fuel Use 24.33% Signature 96 Exp 8%
Fuel Capacity 300,000 Litres Range 44.8 billion km (133 days at full power)
Mitchell-Pope Gamma R240/240 Shields (8) Total Fuel Cost 80 Litres per hour (1,920 per day)
Twin Lynch Manufacturing 12cm C4 Near Ultraviolet Laser Turret (RG22.8) (2x2) Range 120,000km TS: 15000 km/s Power 8-8 RM 3 ROF 5 4 4 4 3 2 2 1 1 1 1
Fox-Reeves Syndicate Fire Control S04.5 72-15000 H70 (2) Max Range: 144,000 km TS: 15000 km/s 66 61 56 51 46 41 36 31 26 22
Shah-Gordon Stellarator Fusion Reactor PB-1 P6 (2) Total Power Output 12 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Shah-Gordon Stellarator Fusion Reactor PB-1 P3.6 (1) Total Power Output 3.6 Armour 0 Exp 5%
Lee Design Bureau Active Search Sensor MR1-R1 AAS22.4 (70%) (1) GPS 23 Range 1.8m km MCR 195k km Resolution 1
Wilkins-Spencer Thermal Sensor TH1-8 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 8m km
Wilkins-Spencer EM Detection Sensor EM1-8 (70%) (1) Sensitivity 8 Detect Sig Strength 1000: 8m km
EDIT: While multiple volleys of 10-15 ASMs that are like 10-20 secs apart are not a problem this force (3x Sunbeam, 4x Sunstone) is apparently too small to deal with few dozens of waves of few dozen AMMs, coming every 5s.
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I'd seriously consider looking at making the destroyers all buildable from the same shipyard. You are most of the way there it appears as there is a lot of commonality already. Standardising on a fuel load and a shield/armour level would be the next step. Sunshine/Sunsteed should be very close to interbuildable after that.
One route you may not have considered is having a new "base" design containing all the expensive parts (sensors, fire controls, engines, jump drive, etc) and making all your actual designs buildable from a shipyard tooled up for that base design.