Jump Drive mechanics

[PTTG (OP)]

I'm rather looking forward to focusing research largely on jump dimension, sacrificing such things as jump accuracy or safety, and gaining in return the ability to make very rapid jumps over very long distances.

As for the repeated jumping, that's one thing I like about having to "spool up" the drive. In most normal situations, when you jump someplace you'll want to stay there for a day or two, or more, before your next jump. Even when you're just stopping over in a system, you'll need to change course to aim at the next star. If you have to spend two or three days spooling up a military drive, then you won't waste the charge by jumping in combat unless you really need to.

[procyon]

That'll work.
Having minimum jump times is impractical, as on high tech levels it forces you to do really slow jumps compared to what you're actually capable of.

I don't see slow jumps as impractical, but to each their own.  If we are doing the hyperdrive as a multiplier of the ship's base speed, the slow jump uses less of your 'real space' fuel leaving more for maneuver when you arrive.

I'm rather looking forward to focusing research largely on jump dimension, sacrificing such things as jump accuracy or safety, and gaining in return the ability to make very rapid jumps over very long distances.

As for the repeated jumping, that's one thing I like about having to "spool up" the drive. In most normal situations, when you jump someplace you'll want to stay there for a day or two, or more, before your next jump. Even when you're just stopping over in a system, you'll need to change course to aim at the next star. If you have to spend two or three days spooling up a military drive, then you won't waste the charge by jumping in combat unless you really need to.

My worry is still the jump to deep out system.  If you can reset the jump drive fairly quickly, there is no reason to hang around and fight.  Jump in at a mid range speed.  Release self guided missiles towards distant targets.  Brake and reorient at best acceleration for the 'return to home' jump - and leave.  Let the missiles coast in system and take out the targets before enemy ordinance can even reach you.

Unless the enemy has much better sensors than you or gets lucky and has units near where you arrive at, he may have a hard time seeing you in time to do anything about it.

If he doesn't know where you come from, you can just keep doing this until you finally get lucky.

In real life, you would need to have a 'follow on' ship to find out the results.  It may be a good thing to have the system not report results of weapons in a system that has no ships/populations.

[procyon]

Just a quick thought.

What would people think of the drop out of hyperspace being associated with a sensor flash.  It has already been talked about as a way to guard against the 'drive by nuking'.

Perhaps a hyperspace sensor tech, but add one thing.  Make the flash also carry the 'signature' of the system the ship came from.

Now the need to create forward bases becomes paramount.  Otherwise your jumps will tell your opponent exactly where your HOME is at.  They will trace the forward base instead.  When they get there, they will have to catch a ship jumping into the system to know your next system up the chain.

If you have jumps coming in from several systems, now they have to guess and prioritize their next move.  Secure the system and survey, or try to hit the next link up and maybe get too far to make it back.

Thoughts anyone....

[UnLimiTeD]

I'd like that.
Would allow for a cloak system that turns tcs and thermal into a hyperspace signature as well.
However, I think giving the system is unnecessary; it would totally be enough to get a bearing, +- a few degrees, given that the jumps themselves aren't perfectly accurate.
Well, though that would obviously require to have an option to check bearings on the star maps, so maybe it's ok to just have the system.
It should require a partial gravitational survey, though.

[procyon]

I'd like that.
Would allow for a cloak system that turns tcs and thermal into a hyperspace signature as well.
However, I think giving the system is unnecessary; it would totally be enough to get a bearing, +- a few degrees, given that the jumps themselves aren't perfectly accurate.
Well, though that would obviously require to have an option to check bearings on the star maps, so maybe it's ok to just have the system.
It should require a partial gravitational survey, though.

The bearing would be ok, unless you can do that 'jump to the middle of nowhere, and then jump again thing.'  So long as you have to jump from near a star it should work.

Someone will still probably survey a few systems to jump from and then leave them empty to give no clues, but it will cost them in fuel and time.

[PTTG (OP)]

The duration of jump recharge can vary a great deal (and in fact it might also be a tech). Actually, that works really well. At low tech levels, when it might take weeks to move from deep space into combat range, then any kind of tactical ship will take weeks to fully charge. At high tech levels, you might be able to make a small ship that can charge and jump in hours... and of course, civilian-style drives might be incredibly huge, but get a bonus to recharge times.

Still, I'm not married to the idea, and I like the concept of complex jump flare data. It encourages you to expand you colonies so that you are more likely to detect incoming enemies before they reach the home world.

[Hawkeye]

Not sure this would be viable, but I´d like to throw in how the Renegade Legion RPG handled FTL detection.

There, a ship/fleet moving through hyperspace crates a "wave" in real-space, that could be detectd by specialized sensors. The larger and faster the ship/fleet, the larger the wave. An armada at full speed could be spotted by a sensor dozens of light years away from the fleets path, while a small scout, sneaking around would have to literaly pass over the sensor to be noticed.
That wave would also extend in front of a ship/fleet, giving some warning to the target system (not enough to call in reinforcements from other systems, but at least you wouldn´t be cought with your pants around your ancles, just around your knees).

Oh, and there _was_ a bright sensor flash on emerging from hyperspace.

[Yonder]

Not sure this would be viable, but I´d like to throw in how the Renegade Legion RPG handled FTL detection.

There, a ship/fleet moving through hyperspace crates a "wave" in real-space, that could be detectd by specialized sensors.

When you say that it moved in real-space, do you mean that it moved at the speed of light? Such a system would be fairly useless.

Timothy Zahn's Conqueror trilogy did have a similar idea though, but the signature wave propagated through hyperspace instantaneously (the ships themselves did not move instantaneously, only the basic information about the ships). This gave any systems about... 12-36 hours of warning I believe.

[ZimRathbone]

I like the Renegade Legion thing,  although IIRC the fluff was that the wave propogated through HyperSpace but was detectable by a specialised sensor based on something in RealSpace, usually a planet or VLCA - but I think that some major ships (eg flagships, comms ships) had a more limited capability.

I would agree that  the player should be given the originating system, if they have previously identified it by survey or similar.  If the havent it would merely report "unknown system" until such time as they obtain the survey data to uniquely ID the system signature - it can be assumed that the signature is made up of various measurements that can be obtained from the wave - i don't really see a need to specify exactly what these are.

[Hawkeye]

I like the Renegade Legion thing,  although IIRC the fluff was that the wave propogated through HyperSpace but was detectable by a specialised sensor based on something in RealSpace, usually a planet or VLCA - but I think that some major ships (eg flagships, comms ships) had a more limited capability.

You remember the system better than me

[PTTG (OP)]

Make it be a neutrino shower. You need  tons of water or ice to detect it.

[Steve Walmsley]

Perhaps to limit in system jumps you could place a minimum time in hyperspace.  Just do this with the 'prep' time.  It may take 24 (or perhaps way more) hours to prep for a jump, and the same amount of time to prep the drive for the 'drop out' of hyperspace.

You would also likely need a minimum initial velocity to even make the jump into hyperspace (which would also limit the 'mini' jumps), and this could make preparing for the jump take even longer.  This would definitely limit the 'jump away' from combat syndrome.  You would need to make sure that you are lined up with where you want to go or your jump away from combat will likely take you to the middle of nowhere.

EDIT

Of course this raises the question of 'can you jump to the middle of nowhere, and then jump again from that point' to gain a specific orientation to your 'attack run.'
I would rather see jumps limited to 'star to star'.  Only gravity wells allow the use of the hyperdrive or some such justification.

There is a minimum velocity requirement of 200 km/s for hyperspace entry and you can only jump when you are lined up on another star.

Steve

[Steve Walmsley]

I don't see slow jumps as impractical, but to each their own.  If we are doing the hyperdrive as a multiplier of the ship's base speed, the slow jump uses less of your 'real space' fuel leaving more for maneuver when you arrive.

My worry is still the jump to deep out system.  If you can reset the jump drive fairly quickly, there is no reason to hang around and fight.  Jump in at a mid range speed.  Release self guided missiles towards distant targets.  Brake and reorient at best acceleration for the 'return to home' jump - and leave.  Let the missiles coast in system and take out the targets before enemy ordinance can even reach you.

Unless the enemy has much better sensors than you or gets lucky and has units near where you arrive at, he may have a hard time seeing you in time to do anything about it.

If he doesn't know where you come from, you can just keep doing this until you finally get lucky.

In real life, you would need to have a 'follow on' ship to find out the results.  It may be a good thing to have the system not report results of weapons in a system that has no ships/populations.

If the destination system is unsurveyed you will end up at a distance from the star somewhere between 100% and 170% of the hyper limit and in a random direction from the star. Your arrival heading will be consistent with your point of origin. So you could arrive on the far side of the star heading away from it. In fact, for an unsurveyed system it is highly unlikely you would arrive on an suitable attack heading.

Steve

[Steve Walmsley]

Just a quick thought.

What would people think of the drop out of hyperspace being associated with a sensor flash.  It has already been talked about as a way to guard against the 'drive by nuking'.

Perhaps a hyperspace sensor tech, but add one thing.  Make the flash also carry the 'signature' of the system the ship came from.

Now the need to create forward bases becomes paramount.  Otherwise your jumps will tell your opponent exactly where your HOME is at.  They will trace the forward base instead.  When they get there, they will have to catch a ship jumping into the system to know your next system up the chain.

If you have jumps coming in from several systems, now they have to guess and prioritize their next move.  Secure the system and survey, or try to hit the next link up and maybe get too far to make it back.

Thoughts anyone....

I like the idea of knowing the direction from which the ship originated. However I end up handling detection of ships entering the system, I'll include an estimate of the system of origin - based on heading.

Steve

[UnLimiTeD]

Sweet.