Author Topic: Fuel Economies  (Read 5729 times)

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Offline alex_brunius (OP)

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Fuel Economies
« on: February 26, 2013, 05:53:40 AM »
No matter what flavour of engine you use for an identical power output you consume the same amount of fuel per Engine Power Hour. What this means is that a conventional engine is as fuel efficient as a Magneto-plasma drive, just you can generate more power in the same space. There is no  improvement in fuel efficiency as your engine tech improves.
That's actually not quite right.

Let's assume you devote 33% of your ships weight to engines. A more advanced engine that can provide the same power output for half the weight will lead to a more fuel efficient design as your ship just got 16.5% lighter without losing anything.

The lighter ship will go faster but consume the same amount of fuel per hour, thus being more fuel efficient. The bigger engines you use in your designs the bigger this effect will be.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Fuel Economies
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2013, 09:51:25 AM »
That's actually not quite right.

Let's assume you devote 33% of your ships weight to engines. A more advanced engine that can provide the same power output for half the weight will lead to a more fuel efficient design as your ship just got 16.5% lighter without losing anything.

The lighter ship will go faster but consume the same amount of fuel per hour, thus being more fuel efficient. The bigger engines you use in your designs the bigger this effect will be.

Actually Alex he is quite correct. 

Ian is talking about the amount of fuel to produce a single point of engine power for movement.  The only thing that changes the power/fuel ratio is fuel efficiency. 

What you're describing is power production per hull space.  Here there is an impact on fuel efficiency based on actual engine size and any power boost modifier.  Note that the fuel/power ratio is not changed from one engine tech to another.
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Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Fuel Economies
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2013, 10:59:35 AM »
alex is correct in terms of practical ship design, as Ian cited 'identical power output'.  higher tech engine will produce the same power for less tonnage and therefore greater efficiency.
 

Offline Nightstar

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Fuel Economies
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2013, 12:12:49 PM »
Perhaps more to the point, if you decrease engine power modifier, you get FAR better fuel efficiency. A magneto-plasma drive with the same specs as a nuclear pulse drive will have >5x the fuel economy. At least if your min power modifier holds out. You do get better fuel economy with better drive tech! If you insist on using high power modifiers, that's your problem -- the game gives you options. Speed or fuel economy. Pick one, or split the difference.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Fuel Economies
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2013, 12:13:51 PM »
alex is correct in terms of practical ship design, as Ian cited 'identical power output'.  higher tech engine will produce the same power for less tonnage and therefore greater efficiency.

Nope.  At least as it concerns Ian's initial statement that Alex is refuting.  On the face of it Ian's statement is accurate, engine tech does not change the fuel required to produce a given amount of propulsion points.   

Quote from: Ian
No matter what flavour of engine you use for an identical power output you consume the same amount of fuel per Engine Power Hour.

Ian's talking about the fuel required to produce propulsion points not propulsion points per hullspace.  These are very different design issues that are fundamental to v6 engine changes.


per Steve in the V6 changes topic
Quote
The initial consumption rate starts at one litre per Engine Power Hour (which is one point of engine power for one hour).

Ther are several factors that do affect the fuel/propulsion point ratio, but base engine tech isn't one of them.
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Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Fuel Economies
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2013, 12:26:41 PM »
it's not 'per hullspace', it's 'per ship' that matters re: fuel efficiency.  less tonnage = greater efficiency, ++ what Nightstar said.

it's practical impacts on ship design that matter,  given that engine tonnage varies between 15-40% of ship weight usually.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Fuel Economies
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2013, 01:07:35 PM »
it's not 'per hullspace', it's 'per ship' that matters re: fuel efficiency.  less tonnage = greater efficiency, ++ what Nightstar said.

it's practical impacts on ship design that matter,  given that engine tonnage varies between 15-40% of ship weight usually.

What's your point?  It's not directly relevent to what was Alex was refuting in Ian's statement. 

Yes, higher based engine tech allows for smaller engines producing the same propulsion points.  Without using the Fuel Consumption tech the more advanced drive techs are actually less efficient if built to produce the same power, smaller engines by design formula use more fuel for the same power production.  By formula design larger engines are more fuel efficient not smaller, the efficiency increases by 1% per engine hs.

Comparison of Conventional and Nuclear Thermal engines producing 5 propulsion points. (all other factors being equal)

Conventional is 25hs and burns 3.75 liters per hour.

Nuclear Thermal is 1hs and burns 4.95 liters per hour.

By contrast, if the engine is left the same size and all other factors stay the same then you have the same fuel efficiency and only get someplace faster.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 02:10:15 PM by Charlie Beeler »
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Nightstar

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Fuel Economies
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2013, 02:17:22 PM »
Try keeping engine size AND power constant, not just one or the other. Even the original comment is silly. There are multiple tech paths to follow in aurora, if you follow only ONE engine tech, you get only one sort of boost. Consider buying tech like fuel consumption to be a cost of building high-tech engines.

Fun fact: Fancy high tech nuclear reactors? They aren't any more efficient than coal really: http://www.eia.gov/electricity/annual/html/epa_08_01.html They just produce a heck of a lot more energy per unit space. Well, that and use better fuel. You can't run a nuclear reactor on coal! Aurora seems to be following reality pretty well, given that all engines use refined sorium.

Anyway, back to the main topic: I'd like a task for shipyards that auto-builds slipways, in a similar way to continual capacity expansion. Constantly expanding my FAC SYs gets annoying.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Fuel Economies
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2013, 02:41:30 PM »
Try keeping engine size AND power constant, not just one or the other. Even the original comment is silly. There are multiple tech paths to follow in aurora, if you follow only ONE engine tech, you get only one sort of boost. Consider buying tech like fuel consumption to be a cost of building high-tech engines.
<snip>

Please read the full topic.  you'll see that these points have already been covered.  The origin of the sub-discussion is that fuel consumption per propulsion point is constant as far as drive tech advancement is concerned.  (ie the baseline for all drive techs is 1 liter per power hour)
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Fuel Economies
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2013, 03:18:10 PM »
*RE-EDIT* we're in a new thread - posting my stricken post :D

@charlie beeler: What you are not taking into consideration is that fuel efficiency is how much fuel it takes to get somewhere, not how fast you burn it or what EP you get.

Ion drive, 96 EP: 8 HS, 0.644 fuel/eph
magneto-plasma, 96 ep: 6 HS, 0.658 fuel/eph
Magneto-plasma, 96 EP: 8 HS, 0.314 fuel/eph.

a ship mounting 10 of these engines would, with Magneto-Plasma 1, be directly 500 tons lighter and require 20 less crew.  If we assume it started with 25% engines then it would be 320 HS vs 300 HS.  The difference in tonnage more than wipes out the nominal difference in fuel efficiency.

alternatively, it could mount 500 tons more payload (more payload pushed per fuel) or be higher speed and same efficiency.

there's really no comparison with the power reduction MP drive though, it's just better. Cheap too!

To be fair, lets run it with bigger engines:

1 600 EP ion drive, 50 HS, 0.35 fuel/EPH.  200 HS ship.
1 608 EP MP drive,38 HS, 0.434 fuel/EPH.  188 HS ship. 
1 600 EP MP Drive, 50 HS, 0.17 fuel/EPH. 200 HS ship.

MP1 comes off poorly in this comparison, definitely seeing some efficiency loss.  MP2 continues to dominate.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2013, 03:22:33 PM by TheDeadlyShoe »
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Fuel Economies
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2013, 03:44:21 PM »
*RE-EDIT* we're in a new thread - posting my stricken post :D

@charlie beeler: What you are not taking into consideration is that fuel efficiency is how much fuel it takes to get somewhere, not how fast you burn it or what EP you get.

Ion drive, 96 EP: 8 HS, 0.644 fuel/eph
magneto-plasma, 96 ep: 6 HS, 0.658 fuel/eph
Magneto-plasma, 96 EP: 8 HS, 0.314 fuel/eph.

a ship mounting 10 of these engines would, with Magneto-Plasma 1, be directly 500 tons lighter and require 20 less crew.  If we assume it started with 25% engines then it would be 320 HS vs 300 HS.  The difference in tonnage more than wipes out the nominal difference in fuel efficiency.

alternatively, it could mount 500 tons more payload (more payload pushed per fuel) or be higher speed and same efficiency.

there's really no comparison with the power reduction MP drive though, it's just better. Cheap too!

To be fair, lets run it with bigger engines:

1 600 EP ion drive, 50 HS, 0.35 fuel/EPH.  200 HS ship.
1 608 EP MP drive,38 HS, 0.434 fuel/EPH.  188 HS ship. 
1 600 EP MP Drive, 50 HS, 0.17 fuel/EPH. 200 HS ship.

MP1 comes off poorly in this comparison, definitely seeing some efficiency loss.  MP2 continues to dominate.


You might want  to look at your own numbers.

Just using your last 3 examples and 1m liters of fuel:

Ranges are 51b/km, 44b/km, and 153b/km. 

Your last one is an anomoly due to the extreme fuel consumption modifier you used. 
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Offline Nightstar

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Re: Fuel Economies
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2013, 04:03:12 PM »
Extreme? That's a .75 power modifier. Zero tech minimum is .5. Calling that an anomaly is ridiculous. If you CHOOSE to use high power modifiers, yes, your fuel economy doesn't get any better. Here's the secret: That's a CHOICE. You don't have to.

Another way to look at it is that higher techs give you much better fuel economy, not power. It's just turned into extra power by default, since that's what most people prefer.
 

Offline TheDeadlyShoe

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Re: Fuel Economies
« Reply #12 on: February 28, 2013, 04:07:51 PM »
No its not an anomaly, it's a direct consequence of technological progress leading to greater efficiency via the method Nightstar outlined.  You get the same power, in the same size, with far greater efficiency.

Basically under the new scheme you get a choice with new engines: higher speed or higher efficiency, and any mix of the two.  This is only false when you are maxing out your engine boost techs one way or the other, in which case all you get is higher speed.

i could as easily say that the 50-38 hs drive comparison is an anomaly, but it's not.  The size of the engine matters hugely at the high end, and almost not at all at the low end. I chose 96 EP because it was similar to old military drives while being easy to even out with MP.

*EDIT* This thread is stickied btw xD
 

Offline Conscript Gary

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Re: Fuel Economies
« Reply #13 on: February 28, 2013, 10:10:02 PM »
Same size, same modifier, same ship. Results in more power, which in the same ship results in higher speed and faster fuel consumption but an identical range.

Same size, same power, same ship. Results in drastic fuel efficiency increase, which in the same ship results in an identical speed but a practically doubled range.

Same modifier, same power, same ship size. The more advanced engine actually loses a small amount of range with this configuration, since the larger, more primitive engine gains that in fuel efficiency. The maths in my test case work out that said range is 95% of the larger. The ship with the modern engine did gain all of those hull spaces as potential component space.

Same modifier, same power, same ship components. With the engines and ships in my test case, by saving out on the space of the larger engine the new ship gained a 12% speed boost and a ~7% increase to range.

Also of note is that reduced modifier/reduced size cases saved a handful of crew in the modern engine's favor, and all other cases had crew parity.

In conclusion, this is... very interesting.
Overall speed is so crucial to survival in trans-newtonian combat that I had never considered new engine tech as a means to anything but a speed increase.
But that way lies stagnancy in range with tech, completely ignoring fuel efficiency research.

Matching engine power through size ratios won't always be practical by the nature of our engine size options, but that just means you'll have to check the numbers of what you can actually achieve.
The option to increase component density for a slight reduction of range at the same speed doesn't strike me as very desirable, except perhaps for system defense ships whose range need not be large. I'm sure somebody's situation says differently.
Increasing speed AND range, albeit marginally, while retaining all other functionality of a ship? The size difference makes this ill-suited for refitting a ship, but as an option for a standalone class upgrade it's very interesting.

Now, putzing the power modifiers to get the same power in the same space with drastically increased fuel efficiency? That holds all sorts of potential for survey ships, freighters, and other such applications where speed is less of a concern than in combat.

edit: Just cludged together a spreadsheet for easy comparison.
Using a 2000-ton ship with 500 tons dedicated to engine space, 500 to fuel storage and a base modifier ion drive as base...
Replacing the ion drive with a magneto-plasma drive of the same size and same power modifier results in:
33% speed increase, no change to range or available mission space.
Replacing the ion drive with a magneto-plasma drive of the same size and same total power results in:
105.28% range increase, two less crew, no change to speed or mission space
Replacing the ion drive with a magneto-plasma drive of the same modifier and same power wasn't possible with the available size increments, so the closest sizes above and below the target power were used and resulted in:
One notch lower:
6.67% decrease in speed, 3.23% decrease in range, but requires three less crew and frees up 3 HS for mission space.
One notch higher:
6.67% increase in speed, 2.17% decrease in range, requires two less crew and frees up 2 HS.
Using those same engines, but leaving the extra space unused results in:
One notch Lower:
0.9% speed increase, 4.62% range increase, three less crew.
One notch higher:
12.28% speed increase, 2.97% range increase, two less crew.

Then I toyed with replacing the ion drive with a magneto-plasma drive with the same size but with modifiers between base and the one necessary to match the original drive's power(.75).
.85 power:
13.33% increase in speed, 50.12% increase in range, one less crew.
.9 power:
20% increase in speed, 30.13% increase in range, one less crew.

I'm going to investigate more of those intermediate modifiers
edit: And so I did

These are increases from replacing an ion drive with a magneto-plasma of the same size into the same ship
« Last Edit: March 01, 2013, 01:51:30 AM by Conscript Gary »
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Fuel Economies
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2013, 08:29:22 AM »
First my apologies, I was in a hurry and did not do the detailed analysis of TheDeadlyShoe's designs and conclusions that I should have.

@Conscript Gary, I have not read your post in detail so this post is not addressing yours.

@TheDeadlyShoe,  in my haste I misread what tech you'd applied to your MP2.  I mistook the drop in EPH to be from use of 30% Fuel Consumption tech and not the Minimum Engine Power Modifier you did use.  Either way it is anomalous to this discussion because it uses tech that is outside of scope.

Too reiterate the topic scope. 
  • Engine Drive tech advancement does not modify fuel efficiency
  • Are smaller engines using higher drive tech more efficient
 

Since Fuel Consumption, Maximum Engine Power Modifier, and Minimum Engine Power Modifier tech specifically make changes to fuel efficiency they are outside of scope.

With your first engine series you did find that by advancing the drive tech and using a smaller pct change in the engine size efficiency modifier than the decrease is ship mass pct change the final range actually increased.  Engine efficiency changed 2% while ship mass changed 6% which accounts for the increased range.

The second series with the single large engines actually reversed this.  Engine efficiency changed 12% while ship mass changed 4% which accounts for the decreased range.

I will modify my conclusion to this:  One can gain a small measure of fuel efficiency with advancing drive tech's if and only if the new ships have a greater mass percentage change than the fuel efficiency percentage change of the new engines for the same power output.  This will most likely only apply to ships using multiple small engines. 
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley