Author Topic: C# Aurora Changes Discussion  (Read 447860 times)

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Offline Person012345

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1245 on: January 03, 2018, 06:48:46 AM »
I agree it shouldn't be totally random nor totally most efficient. It should be weighted a bit towards targeting the right thing with a decentish chance of targeting the wrong type.
 
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Offline El Pip

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1246 on: January 03, 2018, 08:37:23 AM »
I have to agree - on the other side, it would be a nice "new skill" for ground commanders to influence the ratio of the "best unit fired upon"
That seems a very good idea. The new ground combat model provides a lot of opportunities for new commander skills. Looking at Steve's recent post on how the shot mechanics work the opportunities appear to be;

* Fortification Buster - Negates a level of enemy unit fortification
* Engineer - Increases the maximum fortification of friendly units
* Terrain specialist - Slightly offsets terrain effects
* Master Trainer - Morale gain and recovery is faster/Higher max morale
* Unit Type Specialist - Boosts a certain unit type damage (say armoured or infantry) but not the other types.
* Expert Staff Officer - Small boost to all units damage.

If you added chance to hit the 'best' target, then you'd add on a Recon Expert / Target specialism.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1247 on: January 03, 2018, 11:06:01 AM »
Weapons should generally target the units they are best at destroying; that's how they work in real life, after all. Generally speaking you don't use an AT missile on a squad of infantry, you may need that missile later in the same fight against their IFV or an actual tank after all.

Figuring out which weapon to use on which target at what time is a pretty complex thing though. Might just be easier for Steve to keep out of that mess.

Yes, this is quite tricky :)

Some background first. Formations can be assigned one of five 'field positions': Front-line Defence, Front-line Attack, Support, Support Counter-Battery or Rear Echelon.

Only a formation in one of the two front-line field positions can engage an enemy with direct fire. A formation in a Support position can be assigned to a front-line formation that includes a Unit with a Forward Fire Direction component. Any bombardment weapons with the supporting formation will take part in any combat in which its assigned front-line formation is engaged. If the supporting unit has a field position of Support Counter-Battery, it will instead engage any hostile bombardment formations that attack its assigned front-line formation. An FFD component can control a formation in a Support position, a single orbiting ship or six fighters in ground attack mode. If multiple FFDs are present in a formation, then multiple supporting formations, ships or fighters can be assigned. Any formation in a Rear-Echelon position will not engage in combat (at least not voluntarily). Formations selecting Front-line Attack will engage in more intense combat rounds (as well any formations engaged against them).

It will be possible for support or even rear-echelon formations to sometimes find themselves on the front line due to the ebb and flow of battle. Each combat phase, the total size of the support formations will be compared to the total size of the front-line formations. Once that ratio passes a certain point (yet to be determined), there will be an increasing chance that one of more support formations will be temporarily assigned as 'front-line' and subject to engagement by enemy forces. There will also be a much smaller chance for the same situation to occur with rear echelon formations. In principle, it will be necessary to maintain a sufficient mass of front-line formations (infantry will be the cheapest option), to protect the supporting and rear echelon formations.

I am comfortable with the above. The tricky part is determining who fires at who.

Initially I considered pairing off opposing front-line formations against one another (with multiple vs 1 if numbers are not equal) and retaining those pairings over time. Those formations would then engage one another, with each formation element automatically selecting an opposing element to target. However, I ran into some issues. Firstly, ensuring the formations of the larger side are relatively equally distributed (in terms of size) against the opposing formations, in a situation where formations can be of quite disparate sizes, is not straightforward, especially if I try to retain consistency for formation hierarchy purposes (with formations in the same hierarchy generally facing the same opposing formations). Secondly, as the number of formations changes (because a front-line formation is destroyed or withdrawn, or because a support unit finds itself on the front line), the pairing would have to be re-allocated. That might even lead to situations where a player was 'gaming the system' by moving formations in and out of the front line to create more favourable match-ups.

Another option is for each formation on the side with the greater number of formations to target a random hostile formation and then those targeted formations would in turn target their attackers. However, that could leave some formations unengaged.

So, I think a more simplistic approach would be better. During each combat phase, each formation on each side will target a random hostile formation (probably using some form of weighting based on formation size). Over time, this should result in a relatively even distribution of fire. Once a target formation is selected, each element in the attacking formation (plus elements from supporting formations) will target an element in the opposing formation. At this point, there could be some weighting toward suitable targets (in other words, you don't get to choose which enemy formation you fight but you do influence which targets in that formations are suitable for the units in your formations).

There are a few ways to handle this. For example, certain component types have preferred targets (infantry weapons target infantry for example). However, it becomes trickier for anti-vehicle. If you have Medium AV, do you want to engage any vehicle, or just medium / light or just medium / heavy. What if nothing else is available to target super-heavy, etc.? What about auto-cannon, which are useful against infantry and light vehicles?

To avoid getting over-complicated, perhaps the easiest is have three categories of target. 1) Infantry / Static. 2) Light & Medium Vehicles. 3) Heavy+ Vehicles. When a new Unit Class is designed, the player specifies the preferred target type. When a formation element containing that Unit Class chooses a target formation element, it will do so on weighted size, but any hostile formation elements with the preferred target type will count as double (perhaps triple) size. This means the formation element will devote more effort toward engaging an appropriate target but may still be forced to engage a different target due to the ebb and flow of battle.

This means that when you create a formation for a particular purpose (anti-armour for example), it may still be worth including elements that can handle different target types.
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1248 on: January 03, 2018, 01:46:07 PM »
So, I think a more simplistic approach would be better. During each combat phase, each formation on each side will target a random hostile formation (probably using some form of weighting based on formation size). Over time, this should result in a relatively even distribution of fire. Once a target formation is selected, each element in the attacking formation (plus elements from supporting formations) will target an element in the opposing formation. At this point, there could be some weighting toward suitable targets (in other words, you don't get to choose which enemy formation you fight but you do influence which targets in that formations are suitable for the units in your formations).

There are a few ways to handle this. For example, certain component types have preferred targets (infantry weapons target infantry for example). However, it becomes trickier for anti-vehicle. If you have Medium AV, do you want to engage any vehicle, or just medium / light or just medium / heavy. What if nothing else is available to target super-heavy, etc.? What about auto-cannon, which are useful against infantry and light vehicles?

To avoid getting over-complicated, perhaps the easiest is have three categories of target. 1) Infantry / Static. 2) Light & Medium Vehicles. 3) Heavy+ Vehicles. When a new Unit Class is designed, the player specifies the preferred target type. When a formation element containing that Unit Class chooses a target formation element, it will do so on weighted size, but any hostile formation elements with the preferred target type will count as double (perhaps triple) size. This means the formation element will devote more effort toward engaging an appropriate target but may still be forced to engage a different target due to the ebb and flow of battle.

This means that when you create a formation for a particular purpose (anti-armour for example), it may still be worth including elements that can handle different target types.

Can I reiterate that I think this creates a very unbalanced situation?

I just want to bring something up. You mention formations matching up and then determining targets. Let's say my opponent has two formations of mixed infantry and heavy tanks. And I have two formations, but one is all infantry and one is all heavily armored heavy tanks. Or maybe the infantry division is mixed lightly armored vehicles/statics to give it an equal number of heavy anti-vehicle weapons to the mixed formations; the biggest issue is mixing armor values, with HP only a secondary consideration.

My specialized formations are going to *slaughter* the mixed formations if weapons have preferential targeting. Because firing against mixed formations all weapons will fire with close to optimum efficiency (anti-infantry going after soldiers, anti-tank going after tanks, etc) whereas the weapons fired in return can't do the same thing; basically using specialized formations "forces" enemy weapons to target randomly because the target formation is picked randomly. And since I can split units off by formation the end result is that I can still use a mix of unit types, as long as each has their own formation, since it sounds like a formation can't fire anti-tank at one formation and anti-infantry at another (which, mind you, I don't think they should).

I mean, let's assume (from looking at the stats), that on average matching the opponent's armor with penetration results in 4x the efficiency as either not penetrating or over-penetrating (ie hitting a single soldier with an anti-tank gun). Obviously that number varies depending on how much/how little your penetration is off, but from my numbers 4x seems a decent average. Assuming a rough mix of weapon types, that means a formation of all the same armor value is doing about 60% more damage to a mixed formation then they are doing to it.

So this basically creates a situation where you want an entire formation to have the same armor value for all elements (and to a lesser extent the same hp when possible). If that's what you prefer to be the emergent tactic, then that's fine (it's actually much better than when I thought weapons could fire on any target, since now you can still used mixed armies as long as they aren't mixed in an individual formation), but I just wanted to note it. I know it seems unrealistic to have anti-tank weapons only randomly pick between infantry and tanks, but in the math it actually works out as more balanced, because against specialized formations weapons are targeting randomly anyways, so it also makes sense they should do it when fighting mixed formations.

Edit: Also, my apologies if all these posts are coming off as me being demanding. I'm happy with whatever system you go with (and the current system with formation based target works fine as long as you don't create mixed formations); I guess I'm just excited about the changes and going overboard with suggestions.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 01:53:13 PM by Bremen »
 
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Offline Person012345

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1249 on: January 03, 2018, 02:00:08 PM »
Surely it being purely random would essentially make formations redundant though since it doesn't really matter how they're organised if they're just randomly firing at the closest thing?

One way to avoid players abusing a virtual front line with pairings to constantly get the best engagements is to make any shifting of a unit back from the front line to 1. take time and 2. give a status modifier like "retreating" that causes it to take significantly more casualties than it otherwise would (eg. eliminating defensive bonuses and giving it a penalty to attack) so that there is a price to pay for pulling your units back to the support line and then sending them back into combat.
 
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Offline Scandinavian

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1250 on: January 03, 2018, 03:30:43 PM »
It will be possible for support or even rear-echelon formations to sometimes find themselves on the front line due to the ebb and flow of battle. Each combat phase, the total size of the support formations will be compared to the total size of the front-line formations. Once that ratio passes a certain point (yet to be determined), there will be an increasing chance that one of more support formations will be temporarily assigned as 'front-line' and subject to engagement by enemy forces. There will also be a much smaller chance for the same situation to occur with rear echelon formations. In principle, it will be necessary to maintain a sufficient mass of front-line formations (infantry will be the cheapest option), to protect the supporting and rear echelon formations.
This suggests another (and more reasonable) use for Mobility: A multiplier to effective frontage, rather than as a dodge bonus to hit. The primary utility of speed on the battlefield is that it allows you to concentrate forces, not that it allows you to outrun the other guy's firing solution.

This would also have the advantage of further differentiating the different unit types: Dug-in infantry for staying power, light vehicles to prevent flanking (or hit support echelons), heavy vehicles for punching through enemy lines (assuming that attacking requires the formation to leave its fortifications), static units for fire support and orbital defense.
 

Offline Whitecold

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1251 on: January 03, 2018, 05:42:08 PM »
Can I reiterate that I think this creates a very unbalanced situation?

I just want to bring something up. You mention formations matching up and then determining targets. Let's say my opponent has two formations of mixed infantry and heavy tanks. And I have two formations, but one is all infantry and one is all heavily armored heavy tanks. Or maybe the infantry division is mixed lightly armored vehicles/statics to give it an equal number of heavy anti-vehicle weapons to the mixed formations; the biggest issue is mixing armor values, with HP only a secondary consideration.

My specialized formations are going to *slaughter* the mixed formations if weapons have preferential targeting. Because firing against mixed formations all weapons will fire with close to optimum efficiency (anti-infantry going after soldiers, anti-tank going after tanks, etc) whereas the weapons fired in return can't do the same thing; basically using specialized formations "forces" enemy weapons to target randomly because the target formation is picked randomly. And since I can split units off by formation the end result is that I can still use a mix of unit types, as long as each has their own formation, since it sounds like a formation can't fire anti-tank at one formation and anti-infantry at another (which, mind you, I don't think they should).

I mean, let's assume (from looking at the stats), that on average matching the opponent's armor with penetration results in 4x the efficiency as either not penetrating or over-penetrating (ie hitting a single soldier with an anti-tank gun). Obviously that number varies depending on how much/how little your penetration is off, but from my numbers 4x seems a decent average. Assuming a rough mix of weapon types, that means a formation of all the same armor value is doing about 60% more damage to a mixed formation then they are doing to it.

So this basically creates a situation where you want an entire formation to have the same armor value for all elements (and to a lesser extent the same hp when possible). If that's what you prefer to be the emergent tactic, then that's fine (it's actually much better than when I thought weapons could fire on any target, since now you can still used mixed armies as long as they aren't mixed in an individual formation), but I just wanted to note it. I know it seems unrealistic to have anti-tank weapons only randomly pick between infantry and tanks, but in the math it actually works out as more balanced, because against specialized formations weapons are targeting randomly anyways, so it also makes sense they should do it when fighting mixed formations.

Edit: Also, my apologies if all these posts are coming off as me being demanding. I'm happy with whatever system you go with (and the current system with formation based target works fine as long as you don't create mixed formations); I guess I'm just excited about the changes and going overboard with suggestions.

I had the very same concern reading this. I would vastly prefer for mixed formations to emerge as the most viable option. The system as described has no benefit from any interplay between the different components of a formation defensively, which is definitely not the case in RL modern combat.
The reason tanks alone don't dominate is because infantry can endlessly ambush them with their poor visibility. With infantry in support however they become vastly more powerful as the friendly infantry can hold their backs while the tanks demolish any opposition with their guns and heavy machine guns.
Could one introduce some 'awareness' mechanic which is mostly provided by infantry? If you have insufficient awareness, you gain more and more chance of running into ambushes, where you take disproportional damage, and inflict minimal damage in return. That would also in turn require to introduce a notion of a pairing again, to get units to fight each other and affect each other.
The other option would be to free targeting entirely, and let each formation engage targets in different formations, but that would defeat the point of having fixed formations in the first place.
On the flip side, tanks, IFV, APCs could increase mobility of a formation, increasing the chance of a breakthrough and engaging support or rear echelon formations.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1252 on: January 03, 2018, 05:45:47 PM »
Can I reiterate that I think this creates a very unbalanced situation?

I just want to bring something up. You mention formations matching up and then determining targets. Let's say my opponent has two formations of mixed infantry and heavy tanks. And I have two formations, but one is all infantry and one is all heavily armored heavy tanks. Or maybe the infantry division is mixed lightly armored vehicles/statics to give it an equal number of heavy anti-vehicle weapons to the mixed formations; the biggest issue is mixing armor values, with HP only a secondary consideration.

My specialized formations are going to *slaughter* the mixed formations if weapons have preferential targeting. Because firing against mixed formations all weapons will fire with close to optimum efficiency (anti-infantry going after soldiers, anti-tank going after tanks, etc) whereas the weapons fired in return can't do the same thing; basically using specialized formations "forces" enemy weapons to target randomly because the target formation is picked randomly. And since I can split units off by formation the end result is that I can still use a mix of unit types, as long as each has their own formation, since it sounds like a formation can't fire anti-tank at one formation and anti-infantry at another (which, mind you, I don't think they should).

The preferred targeting only increases the chance of targeting the ideal target - it isn't guaranteed. And that is assuming you end up targeting a formation that includes your preferred target. For example, if your heavy tank formation is fighting an infantry formation (with different types of infantry, including AT), the heavy armour formation won't be very effective because even with preferred targeted, there is no armour to target. Equally if your all-infantry formation runs into a heavy armour formation that won't be very effective either, especially if it is anti-infantry armour. If heavy armour runs into mixed, then assuming the armour and infantry in the mixed formation are equal sizes, there will be 33% chance of targeting the infantry, while the opposing armour will have an ideal target 100% of the time.

The combination of random formation selection and weighted formation element selection (based on preference) should mean sufficient randomness to have formations fighting outside their comfort zone, while giving them a decent chance of encountering a preferred enemy. I don't think we should have an entirely random selection regarding who targets who. In fact, I was wondering whether double weight to preferred targets was enough.

Quote
I mean, let's assume (from looking at the stats), that on average matching the opponent's armor with penetration results in 4x the efficiency as either not penetrating or over-penetrating (ie hitting a single soldier with an anti-tank gun). Obviously that number varies depending on how much/how little your penetration is off, but from my numbers 4x seems a decent average. Assuming a rough mix of weapon types, that means a formation of all the same armor value is doing about 60% more damage to a mixed formation then they are doing to it.

That is assuming that the specialised formation is a) assigned a formation that contains an element with their preferred target type and b) is assigned the preferred element during target selection (which is in no way guaranteed). The specialised formation could easily end up completely unsuited to its opponent formation. I think mixed formations are probably the safer option, but both should work. Also, bear in mind that mixed doesn't necessarily mean infantry and armour, it could mean armour designed to fight armour plus armour designed to fight infantry, or a multi-role rank designed to do both.

Quote
So this basically creates a situation where you want an entire formation to have the same armor value for all elements (and to a lesser extent the same hp when possible). If that's what you prefer to be the emergent tactic, then that's fine (it's actually much better than when I thought weapons could fire on any target, since now you can still used mixed armies as long as they aren't mixed in an individual formation), but I just wanted to note it. I know it seems unrealistic to have anti-tank weapons only randomly pick between infantry and tanks, but in the math it actually works out as more balanced, because against specialized formations weapons are targeting randomly anyways, so it also makes sense they should do it when fighting mixed formations.

I don't believe it is true that specialised is best or equal armour is best. It will depend on the type of opponent encountered. For example, take the two tank designs below. The former will fare well against armour and the latter against infantry. Although the Hellhound has only two-thirds of the armour and is designed to fight infantry, it is also less than a quarter of the cost. A mixed formation of 40 Leman Russ and 180 Hellhounds would massacre infantry and, while it would be at a disadvantage against a specialised heavy armour formation (say 80x Leman Russ), it isn't that bad because the Hellhounds take the same amount to kill as the Leman Russ when attacking by Heavy AV and they cost far less. In other words, the specialised formation would actually kill less BP value than the mixed formation in a straight-up fight if they concentrated on the Hellhounds (which will happen one third of the time).

Leman Russ Annihilator
Transport Size (tons)  132     Cost  15.84     Armour  60     Hit Points  60
Preferred Target Type  Heavy Vehicles
Heavy Anti-Vehicle:      Shots 1      Penetration 60      Damage 60
Heavy Anti-Vehicle:      Shots 1      Penetration 60      Damage 60

Hellhound Anti-Infantry Tank
Transport Size (tons)  42     Cost  3.36     Armour  40     Hit Points  40
Preferred Target Type  Infantry / Static
Crew-Served Anti-Personnel:      Shots 6      Penetration 10      Damage 10
Crew-Served Anti-Personnel:      Shots 6      Penetration 10      Damage 10

Quote
Edit: Also, my apologies if all these posts are coming off as me being demanding. I'm happy with whatever system you go with (and the current system with formation based target works fine as long as you don't create mixed formations); I guess I'm just excited about the changes and going overboard with suggestions.

No problem at all. The reason I post my intentions is to get exactly this type of constructive criticism before I commit to anything.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1253 on: January 03, 2018, 05:57:33 PM »
I had the very same concern reading this. I would vastly prefer for mixed formations to emerge as the most viable option. The system as described has no benefit from any interplay between the different components of a formation defensively, which is definitely not the case in RL modern combat.
The reason tanks alone don't dominate is because infantry can endlessly ambush them with their poor visibility. With infantry in support however they become vastly more powerful as the friendly infantry can hold their backs while the tanks demolish any opposition with their guns and heavy machine guns.
Could one introduce some 'awareness' mechanic which is mostly provided by infantry? If you have insufficient awareness, you gain more and more chance of running into ambushes, where you take disproportional damage, and inflict minimal damage in return. That would also in turn require to introduce a notion of a pairing again, to get units to fight each other and affect each other.
The other option would be to free targeting entirely, and let each formation engage targets in different formations, but that would defeat the point of having fixed formations in the first place.
On the flip side, tanks, IFV, APCs could increase mobility of a formation, increasing the chance of a breakthrough and engaging support or rear echelon formations.

You need a mixture at a strategic level for several reasons. For example, it will be cheaper to hold a front-line with infantry / static and it will be much easier to occupy conquered territory with infantry. In certain types of terrain infantry will have huge advantages on defence. However, because vehicles provide a high concentration of combat power for a given size, they will be very effective at inflicting high damage on single enemy formations (which can affect morale).

At a tactical level, I think mixed formation will be more effective as explained in my previous post, but not so much so that specialised formations are not useful as well. It will depend on the situation and the type of enemy. I intend to produce some specialised ground forces for certain enemies and different tactics will be required against different enemies.

In terms of formation hierarchies, formations in a support position can only be assigned to provide bombardment support for formations within the same hierarchy and AA units will only protect formations within the same hierarchy. Light AA protects own formation, Medium AA protects own plus any immediate subordinate formations and Heavy AA protects own plus two levels of subordinates. I know I haven't got into this level of detail yet in the rules posts.
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1254 on: January 03, 2018, 07:31:23 PM »
How will this system handle POW's and captured equipment?

We should probably expect absolutely gigantic numbers of POW's compared to what we get in naval warfare.  Anything that will kill a ship will also kill most of the crew instantly, but a ground unit is much more likely to be defeated but not exterminated.  For instance in real life, +100,000 German soldiers surrendered at the end of the Battle of Stalingrad.

Further, in real life captured equipment was often used in battle.  The German Pz38t was a mostly-unmodified captured Czech tank, for instance.  Will there be some system for using captured equipment?  Maybe even POW's should be usable; a not-insignificant number of Soviets captured during Operation Barbarossa were sent back to the front to fight for the Germans.

Will there be some system for capturing ships stuck in a shipyard, either for maintenance or under construction?  I am fairly certain there are a few examples of ships in WW2 getting captured by ground troops who took the port before they could get underway.  I also know the British sank much of the French fleet in port, fearing the Germans would capture it.
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1255 on: January 03, 2018, 08:47:58 PM »
The preferred targeting only increases the chance of targeting the ideal target - it isn't guaranteed. And that is assuming you end up targeting a formation that includes your preferred target. For example, if your heavy tank formation is fighting an infantry formation (with different types of infantry, including AT), the heavy armour formation won't be very effective because even with preferred targeted, there is no armour to target. Equally if your all-infantry formation runs into a heavy armour formation that won't be very effective either, especially if it is anti-infantry armour. If heavy armour runs into mixed, then assuming the armour and infantry in the mixed formation are equal sizes, there will be 33% chance of targeting the infantry, while the opposing armour will have an ideal target 100% of the time.

The combination of random formation selection and weighted formation element selection (based on preference) should mean sufficient randomness to have formations fighting outside their comfort zone, while giving them a decent chance of encountering a preferred enemy. I don't think we should have an entirely random selection regarding who targets who. In fact, I was wondering whether double weight to preferred targets was enough.

This is a situation where intuitive understanding disagrees with actual reality, unfortunately. I know you think preferential targeting not always hitting the right target should help, and it sounds like it should help, but I'm trying to show you that it really doesn't.

Quote
That is assuming that the specialised formation is a) assigned a formation that contains an element with their preferred target type and b) is assigned the preferred element during target selection (which is in no way guaranteed). The specialised formation could easily end up completely unsuited to its opponent formation. I think mixed formations are probably the safer option, but both should work. Also, bear in mind that mixed doesn't necessarily mean infantry and armour, it could mean armour designed to fight armour plus armour designed to fight infantry, or a multi-role rank designed to do both.

a) is exactly my point. Giving any amount of preferential targeting at all means that a unit does more damage when it engages a formation with the type of target most suited to some of its weapons. And mixed formations are obviously more likely to contain one of those targets.

Let's say a unit has 10 anti-infantry, 10 anti-light vehicle, and 10 anti-heavy tank weapons, just to make up numbers.

If it targets a unit containing only infantry, light vehicles, or heavy tanks, then those respective 10 weapons will hit at best efficiency, and the other 20 will hit at reduced efficiency. The exact numbers don't really matter here, but we can call it 10 efficient and 20 inefficient.

If it targets a unit containing half infantry and half heavy tanks, and weapon assignment was completely random, then 5 anti-infantry weapons would hit infantry, 5 anti-heavy tank weapons would hit heavy tanks, and the remaining 20 weapons would hit inefficient targets. Note that this is exactly the same as if it targeted a unit containing only one type of target.

If instead each weapon hit the preferred target 2 out of 3 times, then on average 6.66 of those anti-infantry weapons would hit infantry, 6.66 of the anti-heavy tank weapons would hit heavy tanks, and the remaining 16.66 weapons would hit inefficient targets. The end result is 13.33 "efficient" hits, which means the unit does more damage against formations with more than one type of target. The specifics of the weapons or the formation don't matter here; it also applies if the target formation has infantry, light vehicles, and heavy tanks.

So end result:

If targeting is random, attacking a formation with multiple types of targets (say, infantry, light vehicles, and heavy vehicles) is statistically the same as attacking a formation with only one type of target. This means players have no reason not to make the formations however they like (within reason). Even though intuitively it sounds weird that completely random targeting should make things worse, it's not the case.

If targeting is preferential, even by just 1%, then attacking a formation with multiple targets will inflict more damage than attacking a formation with only one type of target. The end result is that you are motivated to use single target formations whenever possible.

This isn't something you can get around by changing the numbers; it's a universal truth if the combat works like you're describing.

Quote
I don't believe it is true that specialised is best or equal armour is best. It will depend on the type of opponent encountered. For example, take the two tank designs below. The former will fare well against armour and the latter against infantry. Although the Hellhound has only two-thirds of the armour and is designed to fight infantry, it is also less than a quarter of the cost. A mixed formation of 40 Leman Russ and 180 Hellhounds would massacre infantry and, while it would be at a disadvantage against a specialised heavy armour formation (say 80x Leman Russ), it isn't that bad because the Hellhounds take the same amount to kill as the Leman Russ when attacking by Heavy AV and they cost far less. In other words, the specialised formation would actually kill less BP value than the mixed formation in a straight-up fight if they concentrated on the Hellhounds (which will happen one third of the time).

Leman Russ Annihilator
Transport Size (tons)  132     Cost  15.84     Armour  60     Hit Points  60
Preferred Target Type  Heavy Vehicles
Heavy Anti-Vehicle:      Shots 1      Penetration 60      Damage 60
Heavy Anti-Vehicle:      Shots 1      Penetration 60      Damage 60

Hellhound Anti-Infantry Tank
Transport Size (tons)  42     Cost  3.36     Armour  40     Hit Points  40
Preferred Target Type  Infantry / Static
Crew-Served Anti-Personnel:      Shots 6      Penetration 10      Damage 10
Crew-Served Anti-Personnel:      Shots 6      Penetration 10      Damage 10

Ok, let's take what you say and imagine that it's a formation of 40 Leman Russ and 180 hellhounds... and make it vs a formation of 40 Leman Russ *and* a separate formation of 180 hellhounds.

50% of the time, the mixed formation targets the Leman Russ tanks, and 50% of the time it targets the hellhounds. On average, this means the Heavy Anti-Vehicle weapons are firing on the Leman Russ tanks half the time.

The Leman Russ and Hellhound tanks target the mixed formation 100% of the time, and when they do, one third of the time the the heavy anti-vehicle weapons fire on the hellhounds (as you note), and two thirds of the time they'll fire on the Leman Russ tanks. This means that on average they're firing on the Leman Russ (the preferred target) 66% of the time.

The end result is that the two specialized formations will kill the Leman Russ tanks 33% faster. The hellhounds will die a little slower (though if the Hellhound tanks had anti- medium vehicle weapons, the mixed formation would be losing both Leman Russ and Hellhounds faster than the specialized ones, since the Leman Russ would take 66% of the anti-heavy weapons and the Hellhounds would take 66% of the anti-medium weapons.)

If, on the other hand, weapon targeting was completely random, then the specialized formations would target the mixed formation 100% of the time, and have a 50% chance to fire on the Leman Russ tanks.. exactly the same as the mixed formation firing back at the specialized ones. It's balanced, and I think you shouldn't fix what isn't broken.

Edit: Please note that you might look at the above and think you need to give formations a preference to targeting other formations that their weapons work best against. This is a bad idea and will work even worse than what you have now; instead of splitting heavy vehicles and infantry into their own formations, it would mean you'd want to never have infantry and heavy tanks on the same planet if you could avoid it, and would make the ground combat system much worse as a whole, at least in my opinion. It would also mean that you'd generally want a formation to be limited to weapons specializing in hitting a certain target, which is really the situation now except reversed (specializing formation by weapon instead of by target)
« Last Edit: January 03, 2018, 09:59:12 PM by Bremen »
 

Offline Scandinavian

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1256 on: January 03, 2018, 08:55:14 PM »
In other words, the specialised formation would actually kill less BP value than the mixed formation in a straight-up fight if they concentrated on the Hellhounds (which will happen one third of the time).
But the point is that if you split the mixed formation then (assuming formation-level targeting is randomized by transport size), the 33 % conditional probability of targeting the Hellhound element goes up to 189/321 ~ 59 %, while all other numbers remain the same, so the two specialized formations are more efficient and effective than the single joint one. Likewise, for an enemy formation that prefers to target the Hellhounds, the conditional probability of instead targeting the Russ tanks goes up from 33 % to 41 %, a smaller but still meaningful effect.

If instead we randomize formation level targeting by formation count you incentivize spamming unled single-unit formations, so that's obviously undesirable (unless you insist that all formations must have at least one HQ element, which would make a certain amount of sense). But even aside from that, by splitting the formation the absolute probability of the enemy targeting the non-preferred element changes from 1/3N to 1/(N+1), where N is the total number of formations in the targeted echelon. 1/3N is less than 1/(N+1) for all positive integers, so this will always result in a greater probability of the non-preferred element being targeted. The total effect is more difficult to calculate because splitting the formation also affects (reduces) the probability of other formations being hit, but since those formations will ceteris paribus be composed of a mix of preferred and non-preferred targets, the fact that the probability of hitting the non-preferred target increases shows that splitting the formation is strictly favorable.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1257 on: January 04, 2018, 06:41:54 AM »
This is a situation where intuitive understanding disagrees with actual reality, unfortunately. I know you think preferential targeting not always hitting the right target should help, and it sounds like it should help, but I'm trying to show you that it really doesn't.

OK, you've convinced me :)

I ran the two scenarios, assuming a base hit chance of 20%. When targeting is completely random, both scenarios result in identical losses. When preferred targeting is involved, the specialised shooting at the mixed does better. Thanks for sticking with this :)

So, I will go with both random formation matching and random element targeting and I remove the preferred targeting option. It will be the overall strategic mix of forces that will matter, plus how the formations hierarchies are setup. I probably should also split ground forces bonuses for commanders into different types (armour, infantry, artillery, etc.).

« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 06:57:56 AM by Steve Walmsley »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1258 on: January 04, 2018, 12:34:43 PM »
A follow-up to the previous post. I've been considering the combat mechanics for a few different situations:

1) How to protect support formations / rear echelon while still having a chance for them to be attacked.
2) How to provide the option to have attacking formations with more intense combat, while allowing some formations on the same side to hold position and retain their fortification bonus.
3) How should the other side respond to attacking formations?

So I think I have a relatively simple way to handle this (which changes some of what I originally intended), but I wanted to give everyone chance to poke holes in it.

1) As per the previous post, each front-line formation will randomly select a formation on the opposing side for combat. This randomisation will be weighted by the size of the opposing formation. For example, if opposing formations are 10k tons, 6k tons and 4k tons, there will be a 50%, 30% and 20% chance respectively to engage them.

2) This will not be reciprocal and, while every front-line formation will attack, there is no guarantee that every front-line formation will be attacked. I looked at a number of ways to link up opposing formations so they shoot at each other rather than both choosing different targets, but I kept running into difficulties in ensuring a fair match-up (different numbers of formations with different sizes). Over time, a random distribution should be the same effect as matching anyway and it is far simpler.

3) There are five field position options for formations: Front-line Defence, Front-line Attack, Support, Support Counter-battery and Rear Echelon.

4) Any Support formations or fighters/ships assigned to a friendly front-line formation will also attack the same opposing formation. Any Support Counter-battery formations assigned to a friendly front-line formation will attack any opposing support formation that attacks their own assign front-line formation. Rear Echelon will not be involved in direct combat but may provide air defence.

5) During the weighting for random formation selection, all opposing formations will be included as potential targets, including any formations assigned to Support roles or Rear Echelon. Any formation assigned to Front-Line Attack will be treated as 3x larger than normal. Any formations assigned to Support roles will be treated as 25% normal size, while any assigned to Rear-Echelon will be treated as 5% normal size. This means enemy forces will tend to concentrate on formations attacking them, followed by other front-line formations, but with a small chance of attacking supporting formations (RP'd as local breakthrough). Attacks against support formations become less likely with relatively large front-line forces.  Attacks against support formations also become less likely if your own all or part of your own forces are attacking.

6) Any formations assigned to Front-Line Attack will have 3x the normal number of attacks and use 5x the amount of maintenance supplies (Ground Formations will use wealth for peace-time maintenance plus maintenance supplies when in combat - exact mechanics TBD) but will lose their fortification bonus and are likely to face fire from more enemy formations than normal (including some which may also be in Front-Line Attack mode). This should allow the allocation of limited supplies to key offensive formations (such as armour), while allowing infantry to hold a more defensive, fortified position. Or, an all out attack is another option.

The major question here is around the Front-Line Attack mechanic. Does this seem OK? Any attacking formation is going to take a lot of fire but also dish it out. In fact, overall the side with more attacking formations will have more firepower than normal, although they are sacrificing the benefits of fortification to do so and running through maintenance supplies much more quickly. From the defender perspective, any formations in Front-Line Defence mode will only be firing at the normal (more efficient rate) rate, although more of them will be concentrating their fire on the attacking formations so those attacking formations will take more damage. Of course, the 'defender' in this situation can have his own formations in Front-Line Attack mechanic mode, increasing firepower at the expense of fortification.

I think the Front-Line Attack mechanic gives assaulting forces a different alternative to grinding out a siege and gives defenders some tricky decisions about whether to respond in kind or hold their positions again heavy fire, hoping the attackers run out of maintenance supplies. It also means stockpiling MSP will become very important for a successful campaign.

What I am concerned about is whether this will lead to both sides always using Front-Line Attack instead of Front-Line Defence. However, I think there are enough variables, especially on rough terrain worlds and with the high MSP requirements, to make this a real decision for both sides.
 

Offline Barkhorn

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #1259 on: January 04, 2018, 01:37:26 PM »
I think we could possibly use a mechanic that would simulate encirclements.  The biggest advantage an attacking force has is that they can concentrate their forces more effectively; they decide where the attack will be so they can allocate all their forces there.  Defenders must defend the whole line.  The biggest disadvantage attackers have is that any unit that breaks through is at risk of becoming encircled.

Perhaps we could have a system where during combat, a unit that fails a "prevent encirclement" check could take the same penalties they would if they ran out of supplies.  This check would be easier to pass, but still not guaranteed, for defenders.

I think this could be a good way to ensure that people don't always all-in Front-line Attack.  Sometimes the bonus to fire rate will not be worth the risk of being encircled.