Author Topic: Further Discussion on Titan Plausibility  (Read 13859 times)

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Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2016, 03:41:34 PM »
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(Also, we don't have that many holes in our model of gravity.)
Not in our everyday gravity, but we have no chance of explaining the current fringes of the model.
- Why did the early universe expand, when it was essentially a singularity black-hole which should be able to 'escape itself'/stretch.
- Where is all the supposed to be abundant dark matter that holds the galaxies together. If there is so much of it, you would find some observations of objects appearing heavier than we can explain by the composition of the dust that we can pick up on Earth. Yet they all fall in line, as if Dark Matter is either repellent to electromagnetic one, or an illusion, - a math model ghost like the epicycles of the greeks that explained orbital mechanics relatively exactly despite placing Earth at the center of all. If it is such illusion, our model of Gravity for long ranges would have a critical flaw that could topple all our current predictions about its age and evolution, and who knows what.
- Why are our two best and individually uncountable times tested right theories, General Relativity and Quantum Physics, non-combinable? Though General Relativity does seem promising in its predictions on large scale, Quantum Physics paints an entirely different picture of the macroscopic universe, and it also has always worked whenever we applied it before.
- How come that at small enough scales, or large enough energies, all the fundamental forces of physics seem to vanish and unify into one? What has gravity to do with electromagnetism to begin with, or the strong force? We have no clue.
- Then there is the thing with the extra-dimension which admittedly might never concern us, as we are probably incapable of testing it as prisoners of our universe, but should, should that curtain be pierceable (if it exists at all), hurray for opportunities.

Anyway, there is much potential for revolutionizing insights. Problem is always that you cannot imagine a new color, but it will seems foolish in hindsight to one who has already seen it. In the steam age they thought everything had been invented, even so there were problems like lightning which they haven't been able to explain.
We have our lightning too; that stuff is still there, and a lot of it has to do with gravity. I am not a fan of all too optimistic clutching after straws to fit a universe you would like to have, like all these esoterics, citing quantum physics to explain their random invented fluffy pink world convictions. But don't write of gravity control just yet. There is yet hope. :)

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But in that case, why bother making them battlesuits?  Instead of having one propulsion system and potential source of failure, you now how two, both of which have to work for the suit to be effective.  Scrap the legs, and build a Dalek instead. 
When your suit has no disadvantage from its weight, then having some sort of legs (doesn't need to be human in proportions) indeed bestows all-terrain. It could be faster/more efficient with wheels, but it would also be restricted.
That with the propulsion system, well, a jet also has just one, and if that fails, nighty-night. Better make those generators reliable, because building in 2 layers of redundancy makes the designs so inefficient that the death toll from that will far exceed the one from failing first layer TN-generators.
Then also, massive tanks or massive mech, at some point in size they will actually both be unable to operate without that wonder-tech anyway.

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But in that case, make it a hovertank!  If you can use antigravity, then why would you want to anchor yourself to the ground?  Without using special pleading, I don't see any reason to favor antigrav+walker over just antigrav.  Not only do you get better agility, you also have one mobility system instead of two, which is a big deal.
I thought of that too when I wrote, and asked myself this question  "why not hovertank then". Well, the hovertank doesn't move from itself just because he is afloat, so he would need to expel some sort of jet propulsion, as we certainly cannot rely on atmosphere with this dynamic space fighting force. While jets are certainly possible, there is a more energy efficient method to gain your impulse: Don't anull all gravity, but leave enough so you can push of the ground.
You would still have to pay the motors of course, but it should be far superior to the enormous amounts of ejection mass that any jetted object would have to carry around, because this ejection mass is the planet for anything that interacts with ground. (storing 20% hull mass as H² and 10% O² in a floating battle tank? Is this thing meant to fight, or just an orbital drop bomb?)

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Frankly, I just assume that the normal system for carrying light troops is not adequate for moving around heavy mechanized formations.  I'm looking forward to these, although I'll headcanon them as being armored battalions or the like.  I just don't like mechs on practical and aesthetic grounds, and thus am arguing that they're not particularly realistic.
That is fine to do, and since I change my thematic from game to game, there have been (Star Trek, Stargate) and will definitely be a couple more themes that don't have place for those, so I will cross them too.
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Offline boggo2300

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2016, 04:33:06 PM »
I must subscribe to this way of thought. I don't really understand what the problem seems to be. Call them titans. Call them FriendlyCuddlySmashers.

All they are is a big mechanized unit with high strength. You can imagine them as big robots, as big tanks or as mobile giant plushies with nukes strapped on their back. It does not matter.

Last time I checked Aurora was mostly a game about roleplay, where each person is free to imagine and customize things in his/her own mind since the graphic is basically nonexistent apart from the system maps.

All this huge discussion for something that matters not at all makes no sense....

Because Aurora already has ground units that model big mechanized units with high strength, and these are the first and hopefully last non generic units to rear their ugly heads.  If for instance Steve had called them Super Heavy Assault units,  I would be far less against them (though I still think they don't really serve a purpose)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 04:35:24 PM by boggo2300 »
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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2016, 07:04:44 PM »
If I'm honest I enjoy the thought of dropping ten giant doom bot things onto a planet and watching them obliterate the ground forces.
 

Offline 83athom

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2016, 07:12:05 PM »
Because Aurora already has ground units that model big mechanized units with high strength, and these are the first and hopefully last non generic units to rear their ugly heads.  If for instance Steve had called them Super Heavy Assault units,  I would be far less against them (though I still think they don't really serve a purpose)
I would have assumed the titans are just one more step above the other units. Lets take this to a 40k example (why Steve decided for the Titans and Particle Lance); Assault = Tactical/Devistator/Assault Marines, Terminators, and/or Tanks, and Heavy Assault = Dreadnoughts/Knights. The Titans would then be the... Titans.
Then again, they can be renamed, so you can have a Super Heavy Assault Tank, Object, Titan, Battlefortress, Armored Core, Artillery Battalion, or anything you would want (Keep in mind there are 3(4?) types for different names). We would also then need the "Titan Bay" to be renameable, or just changed to something like "Heavy Maintenance Facility", "Heavy Unit Hangar", or something in that direction.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 07:58:06 PM by 83athom »
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Offline bean (OP)

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2016, 08:29:49 PM »
Not in our everyday gravity, but we have no chance of explaining the current fringes of the model.
Snipped for length.  Pretty much all of those are, as you say, on the fringes of the model.  I give very low odds of any of them during into antigrav.

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Anyway, there is much potential for revolutionizing insights. Problem is always that you cannot imagine a new color, but it will seems foolish in hindsight to one who has already seen it. In the steam age they thought everything had been invented, even so there were problems like lightning which they haven't been able to explain.
They had a good idea of what lightning was by the age of steam.  Also, those statements were made by a few old scientists, and didn't reflect consensus views.

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When your suit has no disadvantage from its weight, then having some sort of legs (doesn't need to be human in proportions) indeed bestows all-terrain. It could be faster/more efficient with wheels, but it would also be restricted.
No!  I was talking about just making it fly, not using wheels instead. 
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That with the propulsion system, well, a jet also has just one, and if that fails, nighty-night. Better make those generators reliable, because building in 2 layers of redundancy makes the designs so inefficient that the death toll from that will far exceed the one from failing first layer TN-generators.
Exactly.  Good engineering allows you to build systems with single points of failure.  The two systems of an antigrav suit are not even really redundant, or if they are, the cost is way too high.
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Then also, massive tanks or massive mech, at some point in size they will actually both be unable to operate without that wonder-tech anyway.
That's kind of the point.
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I thought of that too when I wrote, and asked myself this question  "why not hovertank then". Well, the hovertank doesn't move from itself just because he is afloat, so he would need to expel some sort of jet propulsion, as we certainly cannot rely on atmosphere with this dynamic space fighting force. While jets are certainly possible, there is a more energy efficient method to gain your impulse: Don't anull all gravity, but leave enough so you can push of the ground.
But then you lose a lot of the mobility inherent in the hovertank.  Also, it seems a bit odd to assume that you have antigrav, but can't turn that into a reactionless drive. 

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You would still have to pay the motors of course, but it should be far superior to the enormous amounts of ejection mass that any jetted object would have to carry around, because this ejection mass is the planet for anything that interacts with ground. (storing 20% hull mass as H² and 10% O² in a floating battle tank? Is this thing meant to fight, or just an orbital drop bomb?)
There are many reasons that this isn't the case.  First, that's not the proper mass ratio for a LOX-LH2 rocket.  Normally, it's about 5:1 LOX:LH2 by weight.  Second, if it's far future you can use other sources of power.  Heat whatever happens to be to hand into plasma.  This could be plastic, or water, or anything else you care to name, and it's going to come out faster than a LOX-LH2 rocket produces.


Also, how do commanders work for Titans?  Is this a good place to drop extra officers?  Is there going to be a special 'Titan Combat' stat?  And how do they interact with higher headquarters?
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Offline 83athom

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2016, 08:57:57 PM »
I thought of that too when I wrote, and asked myself this question  "why not hovertank then". Well, the hovertank doesn't move from itself just because he is afloat, so he would need to expel some sort of jet propulsion, as we certainly cannot rely on atmosphere with this dynamic space fighting force. While jets are certainly possible, there is a more energy efficient method to gain your impulse: Don't anull all gravity, but leave enough so you can push of the ground.
No, nullifying the affect of gravity would be the most efficient. You would then need an additional form of energy propulsion (Like from an electromagnetic force via plates/devices mounted on the bottom). Boom, hovertank (similar to how the PAC tank from Battlefield 2142 works, except without the antigrav).
You would still have to pay the motors of course, but it should be far superior to the enormous amounts of ejection mass that any jetted object would have to carry around, because this ejection mass is the planet for anything that interacts with ground. (storing 20% hull mass as H² and 10% O² in a floating battle tank? Is this thing meant to fight, or just an orbital drop bomb?)
A good portion of all tanks (past and present) is fuel tanks. Tanks are quite the gas guzzlers.

Also, how do commanders work for Titans?  Is this a good place to drop extra officers?  Is there going to be a special 'Titan Combat' stat?  And how do they interact with higher headquarters?
I would assume they would benefit from the standard "ground forces" bonus like everyone else. And I would also assume they are classified as a battalion.
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Offline sloanjh

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2016, 10:20:59 PM »
Should Erik or I pull the Titan conversation out into a separate thread?  It seems to have exploded a bit....

John
« Last Edit: April 05, 2016, 10:22:43 PM by sloanjh »
 

Offline Shiwanabe

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #22 on: April 06, 2016, 03:28:33 AM »
Yes.

Quite frankly I'm shocked people have started such a large argument over what amounts to a single word.

On a more applicable note, I can't immediately recall any time when 'titan'-like weapons have been used as artillery. They're usually large shock troops, meant for line breaking/holding.
 

Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #23 on: April 06, 2016, 05:50:55 AM »
As a former armour and artillery officer, I can safely vouch (argument from authority, my apologies) that there will not be a technical or tactical advance that would make Walking Mechs a better option than a traditional tank.

If you invent super-duranium armour to protect a Mech, a tank can use it more of it to achieve higher protection level - or less and stay more mobile. If you invent gravity manipulation, tank again benefits more of it. You can't cripple a tank by shooting a relatively thin leg off - even a busted track can be put back in action in just few hours. Powered armour for infantry kinda works but anything bigger than that and it becomes more of an handicap than an advantage.

Having said that, more options is never a bad thing and I'll use them, just change the name to Air Support. I already try to make Combined Arms divisions as much as possible and Heavy Assault are my tanks so this will actually fit in pretty well.
 

Offline Felixg

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #24 on: April 06, 2016, 06:12:04 AM »
If we want to consider still in 40k terms, Manta Gunships are also Titan class combatants

So the Titans could also be massive floating battle platforms or even light parasite ships that provide close fire support in the way full sized star ships in orbit can not.
 

Offline TallTroll

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #25 on: April 06, 2016, 06:25:47 AM »
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As a former armour and artillery officer, I can safely vouch (argument from authority, my apologies) that there will not be a technical or tactical advance that would make Walking Mechs a better option than a traditional tank.

A modern MBT has, what, maybe 10 degrees of gun depression? If its' designers were Western influenced? A mech-type chassis could crouch behind a ridge line, pop up, take a shot and be gone. Ain't no tread-head in the world who can match that  ;D. A non-conventional chassis with 2 or 4 legs would also have superior mobility in some terrain over tracked or wheeled designs.

The biggest thing is probably the shock effect though. Tactically, Titans occupy the super-heavy armour space, being ideal to create local firepower superiority, open a gap in enemy lines and let exploitation forces get into their rear areas.

I'm certainly not saying that tanks as we know them would be made obsolete or anything, but adding them (whatever you choose to call them) certainly changes the dynamics of the ground combat system
 

Offline Vandermeer

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #26 on: April 06, 2016, 09:11:03 AM »
If the mech topic gets snipped of, I will reply further as there are still things to say. Otherwise I won't add anything beyond from here.
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Offline bean (OP)

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #27 on: April 06, 2016, 10:32:12 AM »
Should Erik or I pull the Titan conversation out into a separate thread?  It seems to have exploded a bit....

John
Go for it.

As a former armour and artillery officer, I can safely vouch (argument from authority, my apologies) that there will not be a technical or tactical advance that would make Walking Mechs a better option than a traditional tank.

If you invent super-duranium armour to protect a Mech, a tank can use it more of it to achieve higher protection level - or less and stay more mobile. If you invent gravity manipulation, tank again benefits more of it. You can't cripple a tank by shooting a relatively thin leg off - even a busted track can be put back in action in just few hours.
Well said.

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Powered armour for infantry kinda works but anything bigger than that and it becomes more of an handicap than an advantage.
Have to disagree with you here.  The problem with powered armor is that it's impossible to hang enough from a person to protect him from heavy hand weapons, and still have him be mobile enough to be infantry.  Weapons and armor are at least loosely linked, so it's hard to see how armor could pull far enough ahead of weapons for this to be viable.

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Having said that, more options is never a bad thing and I'll use them, just change the name to Air Support. I already try to make Combined Arms divisions as much as possible and Heavy Assault are my tanks so this will actually fit in pretty well.
I quite like that way of handling it.

A modern MBT has, what, maybe 10 degrees of gun depression? If its' designers were Western influenced? A mech-type chassis could crouch behind a ridge line, pop up, take a shot and be gone. Ain't no tread-head in the world who can match that  ;D.
Really?  It seems trivial to design a tank with that capability.  Put the gun in a pod which you can raise and lower and give the commander and gunner periscopes.  Much less mechanical complexity than a mech.
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A non-conventional chassis with 2 or 4 legs would also have superior mobility in some terrain over tracked or wheeled designs.
Two words: ground pressure.  On a concrete obstacle course, you might have a point, but the number of legs necessary to get the ground pressure down to where you can function on mud is going to be large enough that I think it will start to look tracked.

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The biggest thing is probably the shock effect though. Tactically, Titans occupy the super-heavy armour space, being ideal to create local firepower superiority, open a gap in enemy lines and let exploitation forces get into their rear areas.
That doesn't work nearly as well in reality as it seems like it should.  The exploitation forces usually run into the reserves and get bogged down.  Also, we could build such things today (with tracks, not legs) and don't.  I think you gave the German ultra-heavies as an example.  This is because large targets are vulnerable to people with small weapons.  ATGMs, for instance.  Same reason we don't build battleships any more.
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Offline Sheb

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #28 on: April 06, 2016, 11:00:51 AM »
What about urban terrain though? That seems like the area where Mechs/power armor could shine.
 

Offline bean (OP)

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Re: Re: Change Log for v7.2 Discussion
« Reply #29 on: April 06, 2016, 11:45:23 AM »
What about urban terrain though? That seems like the area where Mechs/power armor could shine.
Well, for powered armor, urban terrain is actually where I expect to see the biggest problems.  Stairs.  That's the case I analyzed when I came to my conclusion on the subject.  In seriousness, in rural areas you rarely have to worry as much about the load capacity of the terrain around you on the level of a few hundred pounds.  (At least in militarily relevant terrain.)  In urban areas, you have lots of cases where you have stuff stressed for people and light loads, but not for heavy loads.
For mechs, I'm very dubious.  The ground pressure issue doesn't go away in urban areas, and if anything gets worse.  Stuff isn't stressed for 30-ton mechs stomping around, and the countryside doesn't have sewers to collapse underfoot.  (I have no clue if this is a threat or not.  I'm not a civil engineer.) 
The other problem is that tanks have serious trouble in urban environments because they're surprisingly vulnerable to infantry at close range.  Mechs don't solve that, and they present a much bigger target profile while moving, which is a bad thing.  Looking over buildings sounds great, but then you realize that anyone on a rooftop can also see you, and thus shoot at you.  And a mech's head is a lot easier to see than someone with a Javelin hiding behind a rooftop AC unit.
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