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Posted by: Father Tim
« on: December 22, 2019, 01:53:17 AM »

Off topic, but I always wondered why most ships didn't need a power plant on-board for their systems.


They do; such a power plant is simply assumed to be part of the engines and that it produces enough power for all the auxilliary systems and housekeeping and so forth that the ship needs.  This is why every level of engine tech has an associated level of power plant tech as a pre-requisite.

When Aurora was first being developed, one of the guiding principles was to avoid anything like a Star Fleet Battles-style power allocation system -- so as not to slow down the game play.  This is why shields are either ON or OFF and power up at a fixed rate, and why the player has basically no control over what happens on a ship that can't fully power all of its energy weapons.

- - - - -

Granted, with the current system it is not possible for damage to leave a ship unpowered -- or underpowered -- for basic systems.  Though you can choose to interpret any sort of damage to 'system X' as "loss of power to system X" rather than "system X is destroyed," such a distinction has no effect on result, repair cost or time.

Other than adding certain systems to the 'Electronic DAC' I'm not sure what a separate power plant could do.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: December 21, 2019, 01:50:34 PM »



Sensors require "power" to be used and the power needed was always size times active strength which made really large sensors very expensive. Since I did not like the linear range of sensors I often did this.



Off topic, but I always wondered why most ships didn't need a power plant on-board for their systems.

I think that it could have worked a bit like in Distant Worlds... you have a power plant and the engine supply it with power thus burning fuel. You also could have the equivalent of Energy Collectors that would charge a ships power supply if it is idle so you don't burn fuel for life support and other more static sources on the ship.

You would then have two values for the power plant, power per 5s interval it can supply the ship with and a pool of stored power.

The engines would simply burn power rather than fuel directly.

It would be another set of logistics to master on a ship during ship design. You could design a ship to release a huge amount of power in a short time or a good power throughput to sustain firepower over time. Engines could burn power differently based on speed, so you could have slow rather fuel efficient cruising speed and sprint speed but which burn power like no tomorrow and might drain stored power over time, especially of you want to fire weapons at the same time. You could build a ship to function at sprint speed and fire all its weapons at the same time but that would require more reactors installed on the ship to convert enough fuel into power every 5s turn. You would have to juggle power plants, power cells and capacitors. Shields probably also could be overcharged so they recover faster but at a huge power cost, would work well against large missile volleys for example or ships that are the opponent focuses their fire at during combat.

At least I would be on board for something like that.
Posted by: Borealis4x
« on: December 21, 2019, 01:00:21 PM »



Sensors require "power" to be used and the power needed was always size times active strength which made really large sensors very expensive. Since I did not like the linear range of sensors I often did this.



Off topic, but I always wondered why most ships didn't need a power plant on-board for their systems.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: December 19, 2019, 04:47:32 PM »

I'm quite likely to continue using special rules for C# as well. I certainly intend to force at least a 0.25 MSP for sensors on all ASM missiles and probably more for longer ranged ones as one example.

That is already in the C# rules :)

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg103096;topicseen#msg103096

Yes... I'm aware of that  ;) ... so I would "force" all ASM missile to have at least SOME sensors. So I would be even harsher then regular C# as I probably would force any missile over a certain range to have a minimum of 0.25 sensor equipment of some sort... say 10-50mkm is forced to have 0.25. 50-100mkm 0.5 and so on, just as an example. I did the same with armour in VB6.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: December 19, 2019, 04:35:56 PM »

I'm quite likely to continue using special rules for C# as well. I certainly intend to force at least a 0.25 MSP for sensors on all ASM missiles and probably more for longer ranged ones as one example.

That is already in the C# rules :)

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg103096;topicseen#msg103096
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: December 19, 2019, 02:52:34 PM »

I would also say that at some point using "house rules" as limitations for what you can and can't do in the game when you play it is as legitimate as anything else. If you put some restraint on how you develop missiles, ships, weapons, fire-controls and how they can be combined for the game to feel the way you like it to feel. You can build and form a logical internally consistent world from that which make ships efficiency very different from just using the mechanics as is.

Ships simply can't brake this consistency... As NPR ships tend to use relatively balanced or at least not super optimised builds you will never really face any problems.

If you play a multi-faction games where you run several sides it's not like anyone can cheat either.

Here are some of this things I have used...

Forcing at least some space to be armour in missiles based on their range and sensor tech levels, this represent ECM, comlinks, computers and armour. This radically change how missiles can and must adapt to a bit more "realistic" configurations according to my interpretation of things in my universe.

Force all ships to have at least some "basic" sensors.

Sensors require "power" to be used and the power needed was always size times active strength which made really large sensors very expensive. Since I did not like the linear range of sensors I often did this.

Require a certain amount of fire-controls for weapons, as small weapons with high rate of fire do more damage than large weapons with slow rate of fire I thought this was needed.

Never abuse fire-control saturation with missile salvos in "gamey" ways.

Treat the NPR as if they actually knew what they were doing and not exploit obvious flaws in AI logic.''

And many more things...

It's not like anyone needs anyone's permission to do any of that... If you post a ship design in the forum just include the rules and restriction of the campaign so that anyone who view them understand why you might not have done this or that on the design as they are simply not permissible in your universe. It is then easier for people to comment on their viability.

I'm quite likely to continue using special rules for C# as well. I certainly intend to force at least a 0.25 MSP for sensors on all ASM missiles and probably more for longer ranged ones as one example.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: December 19, 2019, 09:25:10 AM »

Steve already neutered them in a good way that it now will take a loooong time to reload them, that in my opinion was the most important part of the equation that actually made them too good.

Also, if a box launcher is hit in C#, the missile contained within will explode, so that is less useful on large ships unless you are prepared to fire everything rather than risk damage.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: December 19, 2019, 08:42:20 AM »

Oh... another issue in VB6 are missile speed and agility... this make late game AMM so effective that the only ASM you can use are extremely small ones like size two or even smaller. That is because the explosive charge needs less space and so you can devote more space to engines and agility, the agility tech also become so effective that you can even intercept a max speed similar tech missile at 100% accuracy or at least closed to it.

I'm not sure if this has been looked at in C# but Steve have acknowledged the problem so he might get around to it eventually.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: December 19, 2019, 08:33:05 AM »

I pretty much dislike in the extreme games where you end up with "one stat to rule them all" to use the trope title.  In Aurora that ends up being speed and missiles.  Yes you can stop them, even at a significant tech disadvantage you can make a layered defense that can allow you to survive a missile strike by anti-ship missiles fire in "reasonable" numbers.   You can also build escort ships that even at lower techs can deal with things that non-escort ships can't.

But it is easy to make missiles move so fast that they are nearly impossible for beam fire controls to deal with.  Cutting your fire control effectiveness by 50-90% means you need to have intercepted them before hand with counter missiles as your point defense systems are an utter binomial crap-shot...and that has a very very different distribution to a guassian.

Couple fast with box launchers and close range...and nothing matters.   You can intercept some with counter missiles, your point defense system can be fully functions (but it won't be) and the numbers overwhelm you.  200 missiles in 10+ volleys you can deal with even with exceptionally low tech ships...200 missiles in one volley and pretty much you need high tech.   

I'm not saying anything others haven't said but for the NCN to deal with magic missile super salvos I first thought several CLEs and the rest of the fleet providing covering fire but even that requires nearly 90% effectiveness and after 15 or so salvos the CLE will be facing issues of no armour...so the only serious solution is a BBE.   Laking that you have to use armoured missiles and hope to run them out of the damn things...

On small salvos...I end up doing that but I also am dispersing my ships in a formation so my point defense fire is also affected.  I also have no choice as each ship is counted as a separate task force for firing purposes by the game.

I keep wanting to try a plasma carronade race...but regardless of if you use missiles in combat and I don't think you NEED to...you need missiles for counter missile systems.  And if you don't use missiles and are low tech you likely face the issue the enemy ships will be significantly faster than you and so they will define the tactical situation.  What changes are in the C version of the game that may make thing shift I don't know (have not been keeping up) but at least with the older versions having beam weapons on your ships strikes me a requirement.  Not just for point defense but for when you run your magazines dry...or when the enemies point defense renders it impossible for you to do much with them.

I think one of the hardest parts of game design is making it so there are multiple paths that can be followed to success.  Again nothing that others have not said.

There are several things that change the way missile designs will work. You will need to build bigger and SLOWER missiles in C# and you are still going to have reduced range. Fire-controls will also have reduced range so really long range fire controls will be very expensive, perhaps so much so that it is not worth it.

You would only face really fast missiles if the enemy can get really close to fire them. Sure... if they have technological superiority they will and it should be difficult to fight a technological superior enemy unless you have numerical superiority.

I think you first and foremost need to look at this from the perspective of at least technological parity. Beam weapons are extremely more powerful if you have technological superiority so why should not missiles be too.

There certainly are some really big issues with missiles in Aurora VB6 at late tech levels... but that is because things like tracking bonus don't work and missile speeds increases faster than tracking technologies.

There is also the point that you can just put more and more engines in them as fuel efficiency and explosive power gets better. One way to fix this could be to allow armour to some degree completely ignore a few points of damage over time, depending on ship size and type of armour. That way you will need to increase the damage output of each missiles and can't just put more and more engines in them. I think such a rule might help with other issues too, such as smaller beam weapons with higher rates of fire almost always doing more damage than larger beam weapons for less weight, they just don't penetrate as much.
Posted by: Paul M
« on: December 19, 2019, 08:14:39 AM »

I pretty much dislike in the extreme games where you end up with "one stat to rule them all" to use the trope title.  In Aurora that ends up being speed and missiles.  Yes you can stop them, even at a significant tech disadvantage you can make a layered defense that can allow you to survive a missile strike by anti-ship missiles fire in "reasonable" numbers.   You can also build escort ships that even at lower techs can deal with things that non-escort ships can't.

But it is easy to make missiles move so fast that they are nearly impossible for beam fire controls to deal with.  Cutting your fire control effectiveness by 50-90% means you need to have intercepted them before hand with counter missiles as your point defense systems are an utter binomial crap-shot...and that has a very very different distribution to a guassian.

Couple fast with box launchers and close range...and nothing matters.   You can intercept some with counter missiles, your point defense system can be fully functions (but it won't be) and the numbers overwhelm you.  200 missiles in 10+ volleys you can deal with even with exceptionally low tech ships...200 missiles in one volley and pretty much you need high tech.   

I'm not saying anything others haven't said but for the NCN to deal with magic missile super salvos I first thought several CLEs and the rest of the fleet providing covering fire but even that requires nearly 90% effectiveness and after 15 or so salvos the CLE will be facing issues of no armour...so the only serious solution is a BBE.   Laking that you have to use armoured missiles and hope to run them out of the damn things...

On small salvos...I end up doing that but I also am dispersing my ships in a formation so my point defense fire is also affected.  I also have no choice as each ship is counted as a separate task force for firing purposes by the game.

I keep wanting to try a plasma carronade race...but regardless of if you use missiles in combat and I don't think you NEED to...you need missiles for counter missile systems.  And if you don't use missiles and are low tech you likely face the issue the enemy ships will be significantly faster than you and so they will define the tactical situation.  What changes are in the C version of the game that may make thing shift I don't know (have not been keeping up) but at least with the older versions having beam weapons on your ships strikes me a requirement.  Not just for point defense but for when you run your magazines dry...or when the enemies point defense renders it impossible for you to do much with them.

I think one of the hardest parts of game design is making it so there are multiple paths that can be followed to success.  Again nothing that others have not said.
Posted by: Jorgen_CAB
« on: December 19, 2019, 08:11:20 AM »

The main problem is not missile, it is the massive alpha strike authorized by box-launcher.
You can design a beam based deffense, or a layered defense against standard volley, but if your opponent is able to concentrate all his misile in one shot, you must have a technological and numerical superiority.

One example :
A standard missile fregate. It can have let's say 10 missile launchers and 100-150 missile in reserve. Or an estimated 80 box-launchers.
A standard AA fregate can defend against 10 missiles salvoes, but not against a 80 missile salvo.

Keep in mind that after its alpha strike, the missile fregate has to retreat and rearm, which is not good if you have to defend your homeworld. Your missile must have a sensor, if not you will overkill.

One solution to make beam armed ships more usefull will be to limit massive alpha strike.

Several possibilities come to mind:
  • Limit box-launcher to fighters or FAC < 1000 tons
  • Create a limit of simultaneous misisle firing per tons of launching ship (what effect on a 10.000 tons ship when launching 80 missiles ? Imagine the Iowa firing ten times its current main guns...)
  • Limit the number of missiles who can be guided by a fire control, perhaps with a technology.
    Without guidance, you can't fire, or you have a big malus.
    You can also restrict the need for guidance in the last 5 or 10 seconds, allowing multiple salvoes, but not a big salvo.

I think that box launcher need to be that strong or missiles become so weak nobody would use them. A layered defence will work almost always, even against box launched attacks.

But I would say you have not don your job as an admiral if you allow an enemy to do that box launch in the first place, so proper scouting and make sure you strike first is key. But it if it does happen you need to be prepared to defend against them. You might take some losses, but it is just one attack and after that the opponent will have to retreat and rearm someplace then you chase them down and destroy them before they can rearm.

Box launched attacks is only good if you allow the enemy to do them continuously over and over... you should confidently be able to survive them with a combination of PD, AMM and SHIELDS I know you can as most of my campaigns see lots of Box launchers and reduced sized launchers as that is the ONLY way to effectively penetrate a decent defence at all. It is WAY to easy to build a perfect defence against standard launchers which make missiles completely worthless in that case.

So... no... you should not make box launchers less effective. Steve already neutered them in a good way that it now will take a loooong time to reload them, that in my opinion was the most important part of the equation that actually made them too good.

Using box launchers on standard ships is a BIG risk, especially of you are on the offensive... where are you going to rearm them. You will have to bring along a ton of maintenance ships to do that and that also come at a potential risk as the enemy can destroy them.

Box launchers is meant for system defence, fighters and FAC that can rearm in a hangar. But the mother ship needs to be hidden from enemy sensors as the reload times are really high now.

I do agree that fire controls and electronic warefare could be axpanded such as how many missile a fire-control can control (but that would be even harsher to fire many salvos as one big one).

In reality ships can't fire missiles from the vertical launchers simultanously as there are physical limitation for doing that. I believe that there need to be some certain distance between the cells in order for missiles in adjacent cells to fire at the same time. I think that you might restrict the volume of missiles fired in 5sek could be some function of shp size. So small ships could fire more missiles for its size than larger ships in relation to size. So you can't build a 10000t ship and fill it up with box launchers because ten 1000t FAC would be much more efficient.
Posted by: Iranon
« on: December 19, 2019, 06:55:42 AM »

And at the same time, alternatives to mass-launched box launcher strikes are on their way out: Many simultaneous salvos overwhelming fire controls, point blank fire evading most PD. This does not seem desirable.

Changes to the sensor model make small missile fighters very attracive compared to full-size ships, the limitations above would push things further into that direction.
Posted by: hubgbf
« on: December 19, 2019, 05:27:20 AM »

The main problem is not missile, it is the massive alpha strike authorized by box-launcher.
You can design a beam based deffense, or a layered defense against standard volley, but if your opponent is able to concentrate all his misile in one shot, you must have a technological and numerical superiority.

One example :
A standard missile fregate. It can have let's say 10 missile launchers and 100-150 missile in reserve. Or an estimated 80 box-launchers.
A standard AA fregate can defend against 10 missiles salvoes, but not against a 80 missile salvo.

Keep in mind that after its alpha strike, the missile fregate has to retreat and rearm, which is not good if you have to defend your homeworld. Your missile must have a sensor, if not you will overkill.

One solution to make beam armed ships more usefull will be to limit massive alpha strike.

Several possibilities come to mind:
  • Limit box-launcher to fighters or FAC < 1000 tons
  • Create a limit of simultaneous misisle firing per tons of launching ship (what effect on a 10.000 tons ship when launching 80 missiles ? Imagine the Iowa firing ten times its current main guns...)
  • Limit the number of missiles who can be guided by a fire control, perhaps with a technology.
    Without guidance, you can't fire, or you have a big malus.
    You can also restrict the need for guidance in the last 5 or 10 seconds, allowing multiple salvoes, but not a big salvo.
Posted by: Steve Walmsley
« on: December 18, 2019, 12:46:19 PM »

I would not be upset of Steve made some options to remove missiles or even beam weapons from the game at start for NPR (and players). That would force the NPR to use beam or missiles only designs. But it might be a bit of work as he might need to create specific templates and behaviours as PD obviously would be useless in a game with only beams.

C# has 'design themes' for NPRs, which allows me to have NPRs that only use missiles or only use beams or use a combination. However, the beam-only races function because they just don't design any ships with missiles. Removing missiles from the game in general is a lot more difficult because of how many places they are referenced. The NPRs with missile-related themes would not know how to handle that situation.

However, given the flexibility of C# for NPR designs, one option would be a game-level flag that ignored missile-based design themes when NPRs were generated and blocked missile-related tech for players. Not for launch, but perhaps in the future.
Posted by: Garfunkel
« on: December 18, 2019, 10:14:57 AM »

That was asked for before and Steve shot it down - there's too many different places in the code where it expects missiles or beams, so a toggle at the game start would not be possible without reworking lot of the code.