JUMP Link between Stars,i think r better re-think ..

[waresky (OP)]

Steve,sorry,hope u undertsand what am mean now:

with more than 200 stars on GalMap..ur "link-star" program generation are near to become boredoom on map display.
tooo more stars far one to each others (in "Arms" terms) r linked togheter and thus are very confusing map and strategical and at last: playability..

u know my "stupid" love for traveller map system.-.but...too many link (number check,number of jump point per Star system.etc.) was me drive crazy..

and am repeat..at last very difficult to manage on map.
With all troubles with this many link crossroads on map..diagonals,jump absurd..

objective: it's possible for u..change the linkage program?...if with only 200 stars r so crazy map..with 5000 am fear become hugly..

otherwise: can u give me a idea for setup a best way on this trouble?
believe me,when u have 10 or more strange link who cross ur whole galmap..u arent feel much this "jump program generation"...

sorry,my 2 cent:)

[Paul M]

Some of the linkages can be controlled in your game set up.

Set the spread in numbers to be low and the chance to link to a neighboring number high.  This will reduce substantially the number of cross linkages.  I may have the high and low bit wrong but the issue is more or less determined by your game set up.

In limited numbers such linkages are often strategical important.  Also you should periodically re-draw your map by moving systems around to accomodate such things.  I understand your issue but this is the problem with jump lines (Starfire, Aurora) as opposed to you can jump anywhere in range (Traveller).  Not mind you that I would be opposed to a more Traveller like map it would be a different game not to mention the fact that the galaxy map would have to be generated right from the start rather than as you go.

[Charlie Beeler]

From the POV of programming, the warp/jump line system is much easier to manage.  It's a simple matter to have a master table that lists what links to what.  A spacial coordinate system is doable, but infinitely more complex to manage.  It also would require a major rewrite of the cartogrophy handling.  etc etc etc.  

I don't see Steve making that level of effort anytime soon for a major deviation for the foundation concepts of the game.  I could be wrong of course.  

[waresky (OP)]

my 2 cent:)

Traveller Jump tech: arent so "EASY" click and jump around,Jump Drive are 1 to 6 maximum (6=tech 15 or 16 and r VERY HIGH on terms compare Aurora..so..)

in terms of "galactic setup" the traveller Star System are MORE easy to manage than others..hexagon-numbered. 1 hex=1psec
Jump-1 Drive are Tech 12 (or 11?) and u can reach ONLY 1 psec away from a stars..
Stars generations in traveller r more easy than Aurora.but Steve are great and better on deep simulations of them.Never change this ok.

Fleet management on traveller Star jump are very addictive and realistic to manage,1 week for a single jump,the Admiral MUST (based on personal Skills) prepare 1 week before the real jump,so strategical become interesting.

Refuel are on Hydrogen base: Water raw H2..Gas Giant Raw H2 and powerplant onboard must have a "refining H2 power plant" otherwise the Drive can failure and at last explode.

The Fleet logistical on traveller are VEEERY addicitve,strategical deployment around gas Giant or Water World are a MUST.

And the Traveller Galaxy are enormous,BUT easy to show.

OK...OK...Aurora generate the STARS AT MOMENT of jump...but i repeat: the JUMP-X (X=1 or 2 or 3...6) are a beatiful traveller system and i think r more graphical,strategical and interesting combat-system.

Hope Steve understand what am mean...

Pre-generations of WHOLE galaxy obviously are near to be absurd...but u can set a "limit" on stars generations..(1000 nor 100000) and am think are more profitable and more without BUG on STUPID randomly jump link...than actual system..
Srry..ever my 2 cent:)

P.s.: Aurora are without doubt a best "megatraveller" simulation around.

[SteveAlt]

Steve,sorry,hope u undertsand what am mean now:

with more than 200 stars on GalMap..ur "link-star" program generation are near to become boredoom on map display.
tooo more stars far one to each others (in "Arms" terms) r linked togheter and thus are very confusing map and strategical and at last: playability..

u know my "stupid" love for traveller map system.-.but...too many link (number check,number of jump point per Star system.etc.) was me drive crazy..

and am repeat..at last very difficult to manage on map.
With all troubles with this many link crossroads on map..diagonals,jump absurd..

objective: it's possible for u..change the linkage program?...if with only 200 stars r so crazy map..with 5000 am fear become hugly..

otherwise: can u give me a idea for setup a best way on this trouble?
believe me,when u have 10 or more strange link who cross ur whole galmap..u arent feel much this "jump program generation"...

sorry,my 2 cent:)

It isn't really possible without a huge rewrite to change the jump point system to a hex-based system. If you have jump lines all over the place, you could try re-arranging the map so it's less tangled. Also, you can hide the jump point lines using the F9 window (Hide JP button on the Jump Points tab) and just leave a short line with the name of the connecting system. That avoids having a lot of criss-crossing lines if your map is complex.

Steve

[SteveAlt]

From the POV of programming, the warp/jump line system is much easier to manage.  It's a simple matter to have a master table that lists what links to what.  A spacial coordinate system is doable, but infinitely more complex to manage.  It also would require a major rewrite of the cartogrophy handling.  etc etc etc.  

I don't see Steve making that level of effort anytime soon for a major deviation for the foundation concepts of the game.  I could be wrong of course.  

It would be a fundamental change to the game. You can imagine how much of the code relies on the existence of jump points and all of that would need to be changed. Plus a completely new strategic movement system would have to be added.

Steve

[Paul M]

I have to admit I would like to see a non-"warp point" game but I understand the reasons that "warp points" are so much easier to use.

It would be nice to have basically Jump Gates that go from gate to gate.  This is similar to say B5 wars, Mass Effect, Victory By Any Means, and probably any number of other games.  At the same time having jump engines being able to jump specific distances again like in B5.  I also like the Mass Effect system where you have primary gates which are fixed links (but have no range limit) and then secondary gates that can connect to any gate in range.  This would also fit in well with the Pre-Cursers..."We are the vanguard of your destruction organic life form."  The changes to the game system from that though would kill many many many many kittens as they were auto punted (or more appropriately shot from tennis ball firing machines) at glass windows.  

So I am not holding my breath on seeing this any time soon...

The one thing is that a non-"warp point" game changes dramatically the startegic thinking necessary.  You now need far more ships for picket duties and your average force size goes down signficantly.  It also tends to generate a need for all round capabable combat ships since specialist ships are only useful for nodal forces where you know they will be employed as you wish.  In my last Starfire game I had no less than 5 warp point nexus systems I think a few of them connected and was faced with the need to try and patrol a huge amount of space.  It ment comparatively that my economy was lagging hugely even after amalgamating a big NPR since the demands on the fleet were huge and I had several threats on my borders.  I was seeing much the same thing.  I had General Purpose designs that I was mass producing just to give me patrol forces.  I find it strange that Aurora has such huge size requirements for a reasonable mixed combat ship as that is a ship that is required especially near the start of the game when your capacity to build ships is low.

[waresky (OP)]

Steve know very well what am mean on "MegaTraveller" hex-jumpDriveTech-system.
But if Steve admit "an huge and completely new" work,am happy for this work and stop.

Obviously Steve know why am "nohostalgic,romanthic" on Traveller map system jump:D..

But dnt worry,and ty for idea on F9 cut-off Jump lines criss cross:)))))

See ya mate!!

[Erik L]

Not only that, but you'd need to start generating "addresses" of stellar systems to compute the distance between them.

That reminds me. Somewhere I've got an excel sheet of the Traveller 2300 Near Star List. I'd like to dig it up, prune out the A/B/C components and send it off to Steve for inclusion as a system name theme.

[Paul M]

I don't think that the coordinate issue would be very problematic.  If you used a square grid then you could easily determine the distances as SQRT((x1-x2)^2+(y1-y2)^2) even with hexes as they would also have coordinates you could do much the same thing.  You could even add 3D!  As I said I would not mind seeing such a system implemented but I don't see it hapening frankly.  Though it sounds like someone should try and get their hands on 3rd Frontier War or whatever the traveller strategic combat game is called.  I think it is out of print though.

[Erik L]

I don't think that the coordinate issue would be very problematic.  If you used a square grid then you could easily determine the distances as SQRT((x1-x2)^2+(y1-y2)^2) even with hexes as they would also have coordinates you could do much the same thing.  You could even add 3D!  As I said I would not mind seeing such a system implemented but I don't see it hapening frankly.  Though it sounds like someone should try and get their hands on 3rd Frontier War or whatever the traveller strategic combat game is called.  I think it is out of print though.

True, but you'd need to start calculating locations for ALL system objects, and possibly add in orbital mechanics.

Though the idea of the Jump Drive opening a wormhole wherever they are in local space would be interesting.

[waresky (OP)]

http://www.travellermap.com/
See that.
Steve know very well what am mean,but r a very huge and completely NEW work for Aurora,an change to Hex-Jump-tech based system.
In Traveller are J-Drive from 1 (1 psec) to 6 to capability.
6 are at Tech level 16 (roughly +5000 A:D::DD...)
In First Encounter between Solomani and Vilani Empire the terran Confederation on 2100 have TL11 = J-1 Drive...and Solomani Conf must build up an Refuelled station between SOL and nearest stars..

ok..only that:)
SHOW the enormous Traveller map..pls.
more than 10000-100000 worlds generated

[Paul M]

You can get around most of that by having a "hyper limit" around each star so that the ships have to show up outside of it and infact even without such a thing the calculation isn't as complex as you are thinking since the distance between the two stars is fixed by their grid positions and there would only be minor corrections for the arrival and departure in-system location (relative to the main distance calculation) so at least from my point of view this is relatively simple and exceedingly straight forward algebra.  Treat the galaxy map as a square grid using cartesian coordinates and the system as a circle using polar coordinates and you are away to the races.  Aurora already keeps track of each system object in some fashion so I don't acutally think that the issue is even major.  It isn't any more complex then the code required to move from the moon of one gas giant to the moon of another gas giant.

I like the B5 jump space concept (or VBAM as it was designed for B5 wars).  Attack Vector Tactical and Squadron Strike use similar things with limits and hyperspace bands ala Webber's Herringswine universe, hardly a surprise since they put out Saganami Island Tactical Simulator.

I'm well aware of what traveller's system is like.  It was one of the first RPGs I played years ago and I like the Traveller the New Era system (not so enthused by the setting...Star Vikings...blech).

I don't really see how going to hydrogen changes things.  Currently any gas giant with Sorium reserves is a strategic asset for a well developed insterstellar navy since most of them would have things like Sorium processing auxillaries.  It is not quite the same thing as being able to land small craft and take on water or raw H2 for processing just about anywhere but its not that different.

[Charlie Beeler]

Interstellar travel mechanics:

The major obsticle, as I see it, is that the entire starmap would need to be pregenerated for each game.  The second is that the galatic map routines would need to be completely scrapped and new one written.

As I recall,  when Steve first queried the diary mailing list this topic was discussed at length.  The consense at that time was to stick with the jumppoint/wormhole/etc interstellar concept because of the simplisity of coding for Steve and the familiarity of the system within the player base on the list.


Fuel:

All of the elements in Aurora are notional rather than real.  Sorium was selected to be the element from which fuel is extracted.  Too switch to H2O as the fuel source element would really have not segnificant impact on game play, but would add a seginificant re-write load on Steve with not functional payoff.  Don't see that happening.


Sorry for being blunt, but this horse has been beaten enough in my opinion.  Your mileage may vary.

[waresky (OP)]

Any answer are welcome.
Obviously,and Steve had tell me sometimes,am an hyper fans on marc W.Miller game "traveller" first ver.
Another obviouslity are mine personnel "space master" player in the past from 1979....(am 1964 born) and so am "link" at AD2300 and Traveller sci-fi on RPG world.

this tread r at end.
ty at all for posting.