Author Topic: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread  (Read 172696 times)

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Offline iceball3

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #450 on: August 25, 2016, 11:38:33 AM »
I was wondering why ships don't cost wealth to keep operational (think crew wages or in the case of a hive mind race food).

As it is a tiny population can keep an arbitrarily large fleet running provided there are the needed minerals for maintenance from auto mines.

I think it would make more sense that to support a fleet a reasonable economic base is need which would be best represented in a constant wealth cost. This cost for a ship could be proportional to the number of crew on the ship.
I think the reason why ships don't run huge wealth upkeep costs is because constructing the ships themselves incur a significant wealth cost over time, and also the idea that running the crew is inexpensive compared to other expenditures, to the point of the fact that it isn't significant to any empire actually capable of building and maintaining a fleet.
 

Offline TCD

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #451 on: August 25, 2016, 02:54:21 PM »
I think the reason why ships don't run huge wealth upkeep costs is because constructing the ships themselves incur a significant wealth cost over time, and also the idea that running the crew is inexpensive compared to other expenditures, to the point of the fact that it isn't significant to any empire actually capable of building and maintaining a fleet.
That isn't currently true though, so why should it be in the future? The US Navy budget for 2016 was about $160bn, with $46bn for personnel costs, and $50bn for operations and maintenance, so crew and running costs represents the majority of the US Navy budget. I guess you could argue that TN spaceships are exponentially more expensive to build than conventional warships, but is that true?

Probably more important IMHO is that Aurora doesn't have the necessary level of financial/economic detail to make wealth a major part of the game. I think you'd need variable tax rates at the least if ongoing costs became an important factor.
 

Offline Sheb

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #452 on: August 26, 2016, 02:03:21 AM »
Well, keep in mind that you can have ten millions workers mining ore for you without visible pay. The wage of a few scores of crewmen in comparison is insignificant.
 

Offline lennson

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #453 on: August 26, 2016, 12:49:03 PM »
The lack of a wealth cost for running mines didn't seem like an issue to me since such large mining operations are going to pull up lots of conventional minerals. When sold to the civilian sector this would offset the running costs of the mines.
 

Offline TMaekler

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #454 on: August 28, 2016, 01:40:06 AM »
Thanks, that helps, but I'm more talking about situations like this, where that option doesn't seem to do anything:
Maybe Steve can write an option for C# where those informations only show up as a PopUp when you MouseOver the individual dot?
 

Offline ExChairman

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #455 on: August 30, 2016, 04:45:22 AM »
Hospital ships: How about having these ships with replacement battalions on ship that will "heal" damaged units and then will get new replacements at a planet with ground force training facilities. As it is now they are more of a roleplaying element.
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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #456 on: September 01, 2016, 04:44:58 PM »
It would be cool if upon the destruction of a shipyard, debris were to rain down on the planet it was based at and kill civilians in proportion to the mass of the shipyard.  Something similar to mass driver impacts.
 

Offline bitbucket

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Re: Semi-Official 7.0 Suggestion Thread
« Reply #457 on: September 02, 2016, 02:16:01 AM »
Quote from: Nyvis link=topic=8107. msg87136#msg87136 date=1456241025
As a whole, I think terraforming could use more detailing for what happens once temperature and atmosphere concerns are addressed.  For example, atmosphere without an ecosystem could degrade with oxygen turning to CO2.  Pollution could also be an issue worth adding, requiring you to use terraforming installations and workers to remove dangerous gases from your otherwise breathable atmosphere.

I would like to see terraforming fleshed out a bit, even if it's just fluff that goes on automatically in the background.  For example, an indicator of the state of a planet's biosphere.  You can give a Mars-like planet an Earth-like atmosphere, but you're still going to have a planet of nothing but dead regolith and barren rock unless you gradually introduce life to it.  Building an ecosystem from scratch would have to start with basic pioneer plants like algae, mosses, and lichens to build up soil for more complex plants to grow in, which then allows for animals.

To keep a biosphere simulation fairly abstract, just break it down into a few categories:

Lifeless - The system body has never had life.  If left as is, it probably never will.
Microbial - Only single-celled lifeforms exist, either because conditions are too hostile for more complex forms, or there hasn't been enough time for it to develop further.
Simple - A limited biosphere of simple pioneer plants and small hardy animals exists.
Complex - A diverse, fully developed self-sustaining biosphere exists.

And some special cases for when things go wrong:

Degraded - The system body's biosphere has been significantly disrupted, perhaps from a natural disaster, minor xenoforming, or bombardment.  The biosphere may adapt and recover with time.
Dying - The system body's surface environment can no longer sustain its former biosphere, either due to stellar evolution shifting the habitable zone away, or because significant xenoforming has occurred.
Extinct - The system body once had life, but it has been extinguished.

On a lifeless world, once terraforming reduces the colony cost to, say, below 1, have the biosphere category change to Simple as organisms genetically adapted to the colonists' preferred environment are introduced.  After enough time at zero colony cost, further increase the biosphere category to Complex, simulating the colonists adding more advanced lifeforms to bring about ecological succession.

Handling alien ecosystems would be. . . somewhat less simple.  One species' ideal environment is another's horrible death.  We can see just from the examples our own Earth provides that life can take hold almost anywhere with an energy source and a fluid medium.  Perhaps the planet's biosphere could have tolerances and ideal conditions in the same way sentient races do, and if the environment is changed too much, the native life dies off, going through Degraded > Dying > Extinct as you terraform the planet away from its original conditions.  It would make for some delightful ethical dilemmas such as "that vital strategic planet with the methane/ammonia atmosphere is full of life, would you go ahead with terraforming and kill everything on it?" Conversely, finding a rare natural zero-colony-cost world would be all the more special if it also had a Complex biosphere on it, a true garden world.

You might also find Degraded, Dying, or Extinct worlds naturally too, with Dying/Extinct particularly around B/A/G-class stars nearing the end of their time on the main sequence, and Extinct worlds around red giants and white dwarfs.
 
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Offline Bughunter

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #458 on: September 02, 2016, 03:34:41 AM »
It would be cool if upon the destruction of a shipyard, debris were to rain down on the planet it was based at and kill civilians in proportion to the mass of the shipyard.  Something similar to mass driver impacts.

I think mass driver impacts do this because the kinetic energy is large enough to make them cause damage even if they hit an unpopulated area. A shipyard would mostly burn up in the atmosphere and even if some pieces hit a city and people are killed it would not be effects that are noticable on a planetary scale.
 

Offline sloanjh

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #459 on: September 02, 2016, 07:08:36 AM »
It would be cool if upon the destruction of a shipyard, debris were to rain down on the planet it was based at and kill civilians in proportion to the mass of the shipyard.  Something similar to mass driver impacts.

Looks like someone's been reading Honor Harrington recently :)

John
 

Offline bean

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #460 on: September 02, 2016, 11:08:08 AM »
I think mass driver impacts do this because the kinetic energy is large enough to make them cause damage even if they hit an unpopulated area. A shipyard would mostly burn up in the atmosphere and even if some pieces hit a city and people are killed it would not be effects that are noticable on a planetary scale.
Well, Aurora seems to operate on a model where people are uniformly distributed over a planet's surface so that's unlikely.  I think it has more to do with the relative mass and velocity of the objects in question.  For that matter, there's no a priori reason to suppose a shipyard would fall out of orbit if it got destroyed.  The debris will mostly stay in orbit.  What does fall will be going more than two orders of magnitude slower than the slowest mass driver projectile, and will probably be lighter to boot.  Simple anti-meteor defenses would be enough, even if they have no in-game effect.
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Offline bitbucket

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #461 on: September 02, 2016, 12:24:42 PM »
Quote from: byron link=topic=8107. msg96566#msg96566 date=1472832488
Well, Aurora seems to operate on a model where people are uniformly distributed over a planet's surface so that's unlikely.   I think it has more to do with the relative mass and velocity of the objects in question.   For that matter, there's no a priori reason to suppose a shipyard would fall out of orbit if it got destroyed.   The debris will mostly stay in orbit.   What does fall will be going more than two orders of magnitude slower than the slowest mass driver projectile, and will probably be lighter to boot.   Simple anti-meteor defenses would be enough, even if they have no in-game effect.

The energy of an impact generally increases with the mass of the impactor times the impact velocity squared.

While large objects falling at orbital speeds (10-15 km/s) is certainly still problematic, the atmosphere will slow it down quite a bit.

On the other hand, even a small object impacting at relativistic velocities can be a lot worse, and it'll just punch right through the atmosphere in a tiny fraction of a second.  That mass driver packet is coming in 100 times faster, but it's going to hit 10000 times harder than a similar mass freefalling from standard orbit.  This is why mass drivers are such a mainstay of science fiction; get a 50kg slug going fast enough and it can hit with the force of a nuclear weapon.
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #462 on: September 02, 2016, 12:48:51 PM »
A 10 million ton shipyard coming down at orbital speed is'nt to be sneezed at however.
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Offline QuakeIV

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #463 on: September 02, 2016, 03:39:42 PM »
The shipyards are built in large part out of TN materials, so as far as I know they don't actually orbit due to the nature of those materials.  They also probably wont readily burn up, since duranium is able to handle nuclear weapons to some degree.  Since they don't leave wrecks behind, I tended to assume that when destroyed they fell into the planet rather than sticking around in space like ships do.

 

Offline iceball3

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Re: Semi-Official 7.x Suggestion Thread
« Reply #464 on: September 02, 2016, 05:03:36 PM »
The shipyards are built in large part out of TN materials, so as far as I know they don't actually orbit due to the nature of those materials.  They also probably wont readily burn up, since duranium is able to handle nuclear weapons to some degree.  Since they don't leave wrecks behind, I tended to assume that when destroyed they fell into the planet rather than sticking around in space like ships do.
If they don't orbit, then wouldn't they float away from earth instead once they've lost their lock on their gravitational frame of reference? Assuming they weren't in Earth's path in it's revolution around the sun, that is.