Can't jump

[idefelipe (OP)]

Hey there.

I have designed a couple of Jump Tenders, but each time I try to jump with them and another ship, it always show "jump failure" because of the engines. I think it is because I mixed commercial engines in military ships or viceversa or something:

Psyche class Jump Tender      6.982 tons       130 Crew       390,7 BP       TCS 140    TH 188    EM 0
1342 km/s    JR 3-50      Armour 1-32       Shields 0-0       HTK 35      Sensors 5/5/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 0
MSP 34    Max Repair 191,3 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months   

Lockheed Martin J8000(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 8000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3

Takemitsu Thrust Commercial Nuclear Thermal Engine  EP62,5 - 0.8 (3)    Power 187,5    Fuel Use 8,94%    Signature 62,5    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 250.000 Litres    Range 72 billion km (621 days at full power)

Najeeb Commercial Thermal Sensor TH1,0-5 (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  17,7m km
Najeeb Commercial EM Sensor EM1,0-5 (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  17,7m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

and I try to jump with:

Magallanes - B class Geosurvey Ship      5.492 tons       82 Crew       470 BP       TCS 110    TH 125    EM 0
1138 km/s      Armour 1-27       Shields 0-0       HTK 31      Sensors 10/12/0/2      DCR 3      PPV 0
Maint Life 3,50 Years     MSP 160    AFR 80%    IFR 1,1%    1YR 20    5YR 300    Max Repair 100 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   SCI   
Intended Deployment Time: 120 months    Morale Check Required   

Takemitsu Thrust Commercial Nuclear Thermal Engine  EP62,5 (2)    Power 125,0    Fuel Use 11,18%    Signature 62,5    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 200.000 Litres    Range 58,6 billion km (596 days at full power)

Najeeb Electronics Military EM Sensor EM2-12 (1)     Sensitivity 12     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  27,4m km
Najeeb Electronics Military Thermal Sensor TH2-10 (1)     Sensitivity 10     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  25m km
Geological Survey Sensors (2)   2 Survey Points Per Hour

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

or

Rampart class Patrol Craft      3.996 tons       132 Crew       435,4 BP       TCS 80    TH 100    EM 0
1251 km/s      Armour 1-22       Shields 0-0       HTK 31      Sensors 30/30/0/0      DCR 5      PPV 12
Maint Life 10,77 Years     MSP 374    AFR 23%    IFR 0,3%    1YR 6    5YR 88    Max Repair 50 MSP
Magazine 132   
Commander    Control Rating 2   BRG   AUX   
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Morale Check Required   

Petrov Engines Military NTE EP50,00 - 0.8 (2)    Power 100    Fuel Use 80,0%    Signature 50    Explosion 10%
Fuel Capacity 250.000 Litres    Range 14,1 billion km (130 days at full power)

Salah Armaments Missile Launcher Size 6,00 (2)     Missile Size: 6    Rate of Fire 40
Otenyo Sensor Systems Missile Fire Control FC34-R60 (1)     Range 34,2m km    Resolution 60
Penguin ASM-01 Anti-Ship Missile (20)    Speed: 5.833 km/s    End: 100,2m     Range: 35,1m km    WH: 6    Size: 6    TH: 23/13/6
Space Defender Buoy (2)    Speed: 1.400 km/s    End: 51,4m     Range: 4,3m km    WH: 0    Size: 6    TH: 4/2/1

Otenyo Sensor Systems Active Search Sensor AS38-R60 (1)     GPS 3000     Range 38,3m km    Resolution 60
Najeeb Military EM Sensor EM5-30 (1)     Sensitivity 30     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  43,3m km
Najeeb Military Thermal Sensor TH6-30 (1)     Sensitivity 30     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  43,3m km

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

What am I doing wrong? 

[Person012345]

Jump Type is based on the type of engine not the classification of the ship (as I learnt the hard way with some survey ships I made that were technically using commercial engines). This may not fully answer you but maybe explains part of it.

[idefelipe (OP)]

I tried to jump with military class ships (the Patrol Craft) and it also gave me that error

[Migi]

If you park the jump tender on the jump point you should be able to send the military engined ship through separately.
Because the jump tender and survey ship have civilian engines they need a civilian jump drive, they can't use the military one. As of 1.7.x or 1.8 those jump drives need to be on separate ships.

[Father Tim]

Hey there.

I have designed a couple of Jump Tenders, but each time I try to jump with them and another ship, it always show "jump failure" because of the engines. I think it is because I mixed commercial engines in military ships or viceversa or something:

Psyche class Jump Tender      6.982 tons       130 Crew       390,7 BP       TCS 140    TH 188    EM 0
1342 km/s    JR 3-50      Armour 1-32       Shields 0-0       HTK 35      Sensors 5/5/0/0      DCR 1      PPV 0
MSP 34    Max Repair 191,3 MSP
Commander    Control Rating 1   BRG   
Intended Deployment Time: 24 months   

Lockheed Martin J8000(3-50) Military Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 8000 tons    Distance 50k km     Squadron Size 3

Takemitsu Thrust Commercial Nuclear Thermal Engine  EP62,5 - 0.8 (3)    Power 187,5    Fuel Use 8,94%    Signature 62,5    Explosion 5%
Fuel Capacity 250.000 Litres    Range 72 billion km (621 days at full power)

Najeeb Commercial Thermal Sensor TH1,0-5 (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  17,7m km
Najeeb Commercial EM Sensor EM1,0-5 (1)     Sensitivity 5     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  17,7m km

This design is classed as a Commercial Vessel for maintenance purposes

What am I doing wrong? 

These two things need to be both military, or both commercial.

[Pedroig]

Hmm, what about a Military Station (ship with no engine at all) and a Commercial "jump capable" Tug?  What happens if a Tug attaches to a military engine ship, how does the "new" ship jump?

Will a tractor beam work through a jump point?

[Father Tim]

Hmm, what about a Military Station (ship with no engine at all) and a Commercial "jump capable" Tug?  What happens if a Tug attaches to a military engine ship, how does the "new" ship jump?

Will a tractor beam work through a jump point?

In VB Aurora, originally 'no engine' was treated as 'military engine'.  It was changed to 'no engine = civilian engine' so that either type of jump engine could move one.

In C# Aurora, if Steve maintained his programming logic, items default to commercial.  Most likely 'no engine = commercial engine' but I haven't checked.  If so, this would require a commercial jump engine to move such a station.

No, tractor beams don't "work" through a jump point, but since jumping doesn't require 'movement' it largely doesn't matter.  Steve fixed the bug where jumping would automatically break tractor links, but since military jump drives can no longer jump commercial engines, you'll need to organize your sub-fleets by engine type if you want to do a squadron transit.  Standard tranists ignore exactly which ship is where, because Standard Transits assume there's nothing within two hours to bother you.

Also, there's nothing about a Tug that requires it to have military or commercial engines, or that makes it a military or commercial vessel.

Also, also, the check follows the logic "is any of the forbidden thing present" so putting both military and commercial engines (or jump drives) on the same ship merely ensures that it can't jump at all.

- - - - -

P.S.:  Between VB Aurora and C# Aurora the terms 'civilian' and 'commercial' swapped meanings.  A lot of people used them interchangeably to begin with, and some of us old timers don't always remember which way round it currently is.

[Migi]

Hmm, what about a Military Station (ship with no engine at all) and a Commercial "jump capable" Tug?  What happens if a Tug attaches to a military engine ship, how does the "new" ship jump?

Will a tractor beam work through a jump point?

I don't think that a station can transit jump points (but I might be wrong).
You could use a tug to bring a station with a military jump drive to a warp point, I think the station would be stuck there and unable to leave the system so it would only provide access in and out. And if you put engines on it then it's just a military jump tender anyway.

So basically you should be resigned to building yet another Naval shipyard. Thanks Steve.

P.S.:  Between VB Aurora and C# Aurora the terms 'civilian' and 'commercial' swapped meanings.  A lot of people used them interchangeably to begin with, and some of us old timers don't always remember which way round it currently is.

For some reason I thought that engines were civilian or military, but I just checked and they are either commercial or military. I always try to use commercial to refer to the civilian companies. The naming is a bit of a mess.

[Pedroig]

That it is.  Commercial is a type of activity.

Would prefer MILSPEC and CIVSPEC for component types and then Military or Civilian for ship class types.  Then there would be Governmental (Military and Civilian) and Commercial (Civilian only? PMC would be interesting though) fleets.

[Father Tim]

In other words, we'd all prefer if everyone would just "get it right" but quite a lot of us disagree on what "right" is.

At least civilian/commercial doesn't break the game like period vs comma for decimal separator.

[skoormit]

Hmm, what about a Military Station (ship with no engine at all) and a Commercial "jump capable" Tug?  What happens if a Tug attaches to a military engine ship, how does the "new" ship jump?

Will a tractor beam work through a jump point?

I don't think that a station can transit jump points (but I might be wrong).
You could use a tug to bring a station with a military jump drive to a warp point, I think the station would be stuck there and unable to leave the system so it would only provide access in and out. And if you put engines on it then it's just a military jump tender anyway.

...

A tractor beam will "work" through a jump point in the sense that a tug can transit a jump point while towing something.
A tractor beam will not "work" through a jump point by reaching through to the other side to pull a ship through.

A station can transit a jump point.
I build my jump gates with engineless stations. When they build one side of the gate, they transit through and then build the other side.

[Noble713]

Hmmmm, I seem to have suffered from this as well.

I designed my ships as follows:
Frigate Leader: Commercial Engine, Military Jump Drive capable of 4-ship squadron jumps (for leading squadrons into contested/defended jump points)
Frigates: Commercial Engine, Civilian Jump Drive capable of self-jump only (cheap and requires far less crew, for independent movement or emergency retreats)

For some reason I THOUGHT a military jump drive could squadron jump anything, but apparently not. 

[skoormit]

Hmmmm, I seem to have suffered from this as well.

I designed my ships as follows:
Frigate Leader: Commercial Engine, Military Jump Drive capable of 4-ship squadron jumps (for leading squadrons into contested/defended jump points)
Frigates: Commercial Engine, Civilian Jump Drive capable of self-jump only (cheap and requires far less crew, for independent movement or emergency retreats)

For some reason I THOUGHT a military jump drive could squadron jump anything, but apparently not. 

A military JD can only jump military engines, no matter if the transit type is standard or squadron.
A commercial JD can only jump commercial engines, which means the transit type is always standard.

[Father Tim]

For some reason I THOUGHT a military jump drive could squadron jump anything, but apparently not. 

They could before, now they can't.  Whether this is a bug or a design decision only Steve can say, but it's certainly annoying to a large number of us.

[TMaekler]

Was there a discussion about this? To me it seems that differenciating between military and commercial jump drives doesn't add much to the gameplay. So why do we have them in the first place?