Author Topic: C# Aurora Changes Discussion  (Read 449241 times)

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Offline serger

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #870 on: June 06, 2017, 01:22:00 PM »
Person012345, I'm sorry, but you are not very accurate in description of my statements. You mixed me up with Hazard and, from the other side, it was my statement, that plasma is not technically a gas. And there are some other fine points, where I suspect, that you mixed up smth too. Therefore, I suspect that you are in some misunderstanding about my point at all.

Again.
When you are tossing nuclear tablets for NP drive - it is the same, as you are tossing fuel (chemical, or nuclear, or matter-antimatter, it doesn't matter) to the combustion chamber.
But rocket engines are not propel their ships just tossing out propulsion mass from the combustion chamber. They are propel their ships, when they tossed smth out from the nozzle:



As you can see at the picture, main pressure asymmetry - it is an asymmetry at the back surface of nozzle, not at the inner surface of the ship. There is a reason to use nozzle, not a simple hole in the combustion chamber. Propulsion pressure tosses your ship, when it's propulsion mass is already out of your ship.

And what is a difference with NP engine?
At the first look, the difference is, that NP engine can work with outer combustion. It can have no combustion chamber at all, and it's nozzle have another (more open) form.
Indeed, NP engine also can have usual inner combustion chamber and usual form of nozzle, if you have a stuff like Duranium, that will endure such inner impact.

The difference between Nuclear Pulse engine and other propulsion engines (nuclear or chemical) is not in outer combustion.
The difference is in pulse combustion.
The same pulse, as in those old German V-1 pulse rocket engines, neglecting that V-1 used chemical fuel, not nuclear, because Germany has no nuclear drive tech. :)

As for classical Orion NP drive - it have outer combustion, yes. But there is still no principal difference. Outer combustion or inner combustion - both ways you have to combust some matter to create pressure at the back of your ship, that will be asymmetrical when bump this ship, tossing it forward. It is absolutely the same, as to say, that you are tossing smth back from the back of this ship.

And there is a principle of momentum conservation law, as it is. Tossing smth back is tossing smth forward, and no other way (and gravitational maneuvers and light sails are not exceptions - all of them are tossing smth back too: gravitational maneuver is tossing major mass, using it's own gravitation; light sail is the same as foton drive, though it looks very couterintuitive, because light sail can use a star or outer laser as a part of itself).

And if you want to have an effective drive (as Hazard wrote, when our conversation start) - you must toss smth with full close control of the process. It is - to toss smth from the back of your ship, as in the picture above. Any other known way will be ineffective from our Aurorian point of view, and from any hard-fiction point of view at all. :)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 01:28:22 PM by serger »
 

Offline iceball3

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #871 on: June 06, 2017, 02:30:40 PM »
And there is a principle of momentum conservation law, as it is.
 

Offline serger

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #872 on: June 06, 2017, 02:42:41 PM »
iceball3, your message is too laconic for me. I don't understand Spartan language. :)
 
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Offline Person012345

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #873 on: June 06, 2017, 03:06:42 PM »
*stuff*
Ok, then if your entire point was about particles bouncing off the vehicle in the first place, then you were just wrong in the first place, since one of the more effective (though low power) ways of propelling spacecraft nowadays is ion propulsion. You can't wiggle out of it on technicalities because every way you try to justify it causes you to be wrong in some other way and the fact that you tried to is the only reason this conversation has continued. I'm done with it anyway because it's a stupid convo.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 04:48:16 PM by Person012345 »
 

Offline Detros

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #874 on: June 06, 2017, 05:36:55 PM »
Can we just get back to discussing game stuff more directly?
 

Offline serger

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #875 on: June 06, 2017, 10:53:11 PM »
Ok, then if your entire point was about particles bouncing off the vehicle in the first place, then you were just wrong in the first place, since one of the more effective (though low power) ways of propelling spacecraft nowadays is ion propulsion. You can't wiggle out of it on technicalities because
...because ion drive (and magnetoplasma too) have absolutely the same principle of tossing out some gas/plasma from the back of your ship.  ::)
 

Offline sloanjh (OP)

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #876 on: June 07, 2017, 07:31:25 AM »
Can we just get back to discussing game stuff more directly?

And please remember Erick's site rules (http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=966.0):

1. No Spam. You get one chance to spam, and then you get banned.
2. No Flames. We are all here because we like 4x games.
3. Have Fun. If you aren't having fun, we'll send over someone to smack you with a trout until you do.  ;)

So in the spirit of #3:  Have fun!

John
 

Offline boggo2300

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #877 on: June 07, 2017, 04:47:34 PM »
3. Have Fun. If you aren't having fun, we'll send over someone to smack you with a trout until you do.  ;)

As someone with an allergy for fish oil I claim this would be a completely un-fun thing to have happen.
The boggosity of the universe tends towards maximum.
 

Offline Silvarelion

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #878 on: June 09, 2017, 07:53:04 PM »
As someone with an allergy for fish oil I claim this would be a completely un-fun thing to have happen.

Best to maintain an unfailing and unflinching air of fun, then :P
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath.
  ~The Mistake Not, Hydrogen Sonata, Iain Banks
 

Offline Tuna-Fish

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #879 on: June 10, 2017, 01:20:49 PM »
RE: new passive sensor model.

I very much like this, not the least because it immediately made heat-seeking missiles massively more usable.  This allows completely new ways of fighting. . .
 

Iranon

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #880 on: June 10, 2017, 01:39:45 PM »
New version certainly encourages smaller sensors, fighters or even buoys.

I hope the AI will be able to handle it. The less-than-linear scaling of sensor range to sensor size means that full-size ships will be very vulnerable to sneak attacks from fighters/FACs.

If all works out, we may get some interesting situations where light forces clash while trying to take pot shots at the other side's capital ships...
 

Offline Felixg

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #881 on: June 10, 2017, 07:41:24 PM »
New version certainly encourages smaller sensors, fighters or even buoys.

I hope the AI will be able to handle it. The less-than-linear scaling of sensor range to sensor size means that full-size ships will be very vulnerable to sneak attacks from fighters/FACs.

If all works out, we may get some interesting situations where light forces clash while trying to take pot shots at the other side's capital ships...

Stealthed fighters coasting around behind the enemy formation, unloading their heavy missiles once they are too close to be intercepted, or after the enemy is already engaged in energy weapons range with the motherships so they have to choose between final defense or attacking.
 

Offline Gyrfalcon

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #882 on: June 12, 2017, 01:49:48 AM »
I'm cautiously optimistic that the new changes will help push missile sizes up. Mid-game, I think you'll want most missiles to have at least .75 MSP for ECM, ECCM and a sensor package of some form.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #883 on: June 12, 2017, 02:28:42 AM »
Yeah 0.25 MSP cutoff seems like a great idea. It's 25% of a size 1 Missile, which will significantly impact it's performance, but only 5-10% of most smallish/normal sized ASM ( Size 2.5 - 5 ), and negligible for larger torpedoes.
 

Offline chrislocke2000

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Re: C# Aurora Changes Discussion
« Reply #884 on: June 12, 2017, 04:52:41 AM »
Perhaps the .25 minimum could be the subject of a few tech levels to reduce required size down although not reducing to current state.

However do like these changes, especially the reduced load times on larger launchers and box launchers from the off.