Aurora 4x

Fiction => Steve's Fiction => Aurora => Colonial Wars => Topic started by: Steve Walmsley on August 30, 2015, 06:31:22 PM

Title: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 30, 2015, 06:31:22 PM
I've locked the main updates thread so it will be easy to read through. Please post any comments in this thread
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on August 30, 2015, 11:03:10 PM
Just reading through the starting forces right now, I'm a little surprised at how different all the starting fleets are, future conflict should be very interesting.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheRequimen on August 31, 2015, 09:59:08 AM
I really like what the warp point changes will do for this game.  Reminds me a lot of John J.  Lumpkin, "The Human Reach" series.   

Political star map from his books.    hxxp: www.   thehumanreach.   net/images/politicalmap_humanreach.   png
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 31, 2015, 10:58:10 AM
I really like what the warp point changes will do for this game.   Reminds me a lot of John J.   Lumpkin, "The Human Reach" series. 

Political star map from his books.  hxxp: www. thehumanreach. net/images/politicalmap_humanreach. png

I'm actually reading that series while playing - for the third time! :). Halfway through the second book. Do you happen to know when the third book will be out?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheRequimen on August 31, 2015, 03:43:39 PM
This is John's reply to a thread on that subject on Amazon. 

"Hi, sorry for slow reply and thanks for your interest.  Yes, I'm still planning the third book.  I'm writing my dissertation right now, which takes most of my writing energies, but I hope to move forward with The Passage of Stars later this year. " Posted on Jan 26, 2015 4:46:25 PM PST
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Mel Vixen on August 31, 2015, 05:53:18 PM
Why are the Germans not using wolf 358 to get to "Neu Brandenburg" and "Neu Bayern" (Bavaria)? To many Borg? Since nobody laid claim to the wolf system as far as i see, it could be worth it to fortify it as Backdoorsystem. ("Operation Hintertür" ^^)
I see that Argentina uses it for transit but considering the the diplomatic problems with the Caliphate it would be better to move the Scharnhorsts through Wolf 358. Maybe split the traffic between wolf and medina

Also please name one of the (War) Ships "Orion" as an little german injoke ;)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on August 31, 2015, 06:44:57 PM
Why are the Germans not using wolf 358 to get to "Neu Brandenburg" and "Neu Bayern" (Bavaria)? To many Borg? Since nobody laid claim to the wolf system as far as i see, it could be worth it to fortify it as Backdoorsystem. ("Operation Hintertür" ^^)
I see that Argentina uses it for transit but considering the the diplomatic problems with the Caliphate it would be better to move the Scharnhorsts through Wolf 358. Maybe split the traffic between wolf and medina

Also please name one of the (War) Ships "Orion" as an little german injoke ;)

The Germans have been using Wolf 358 to get to their original colonies but they have to go through Medina to reach all the other territory they have explored - that was the traffic mentioned in the post. I didn't realise that Bayern and Bavaria were the same thing :) I'll change the names as you suggested. One of the Deutschland class frigates is now the Orion. Is that a reference to the WW2 commerce raider?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Mel Vixen on August 31, 2015, 07:11:23 PM
Its a reference to the first (and some say only truly) German Science fiction made by the ARD it run under the Title "Raumpatrouille – Die phantastischen Abenteuer des Raumschiffes Orion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raumpatrouille_%E2%80%93_Die_phantastischen_Abenteuer_des_Raumschiffes_Orion)". 
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on August 31, 2015, 07:58:42 PM
Their enemies are the frogs. Hah.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: dgibso29 on September 01, 2015, 09:34:58 AM
It feels like you do this to me every year, Steve. How in the world am I to focus on school with you writing such an interesting story AND teasing at 6.5!?

Eagerly awaiting the next installments.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Mel Vixen on September 01, 2015, 11:23:45 AM
I am seeing so many gates, how many of them were build by humans and how many by Aliens/precursors?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 01, 2015, 11:29:28 AM
I am seeing so many gates, how many of them were build by humans and how many by Aliens/precursors?

Mainly human. There are 9 construction ships at work (2 Japanese, 2 American, 2 UK, 2 Centauri and 1 Russian).
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on September 01, 2015, 03:24:23 PM
I sense that Russia's up to shenanigans, AGAIN.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Erik L on September 01, 2015, 04:10:45 PM
You know the Chinese are going to take it in the shorts eventually.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on September 01, 2015, 05:05:48 PM
I don't think calling them Manchuria will help with the universal constant
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Xkill on September 01, 2015, 09:09:52 PM
I don't think calling them Manchuria will help with the universal constant

The curse is so strong that the Chinese got destroyed before the game even started!
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on September 01, 2015, 10:51:41 PM
I just got upto part 6 of the trans Newtonian campaign. I can see where the Chinese curse started , it was a doozy but they brought it upon themself.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: xeryon on September 02, 2015, 07:40:51 AM
I knew they were toast as soon as Steve said the name of the first two warship classes were the Jiangwei and Jianghu.  Maybe to add some actual suspense he should choose two class names that weren't historically slaughtered by him?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on September 02, 2015, 03:18:58 PM
I think I'll root for the Russians. They always get crushed in the other games (even if they usually bring it down on themselves with their unflinching aggression) and I want to see them win once. Also they're using the Railgun flak PD approach I like to use in my games.

At least they're off to a nice start with those exploration finds. Here's hoping the sheer scope of this campaign doesn't cause problems before they get to profit off their discovery.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Garfunkel on September 03, 2015, 03:00:20 PM
Man, this game is crazy. I hope it keeps going for a long time! Good luck Steve! Interesting to see where the first conflict ignites.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: xeryon on September 03, 2015, 03:21:02 PM
I'm predicting the Manchurians are going to be the first to initiate conflict.  They are going to be getting squeezed hard.  Their system is essentially pinned between two powers 'home' system chains with little room to expand.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheRequimen on September 03, 2015, 05:38:59 PM
I see three potential flashpoints so far, in order of what I think is most likely to happen.

Caliphate-Germany, over expansion and security through WISE 1506+7027 and Sigma Draconis arms.  Depending on what sort of mindset Steve has for the Caliphate (or the Germans for that matter. . . ), I see imminent conflict between these two powers, with little potential for discourse considering they both really have nowhere else to go.

Japan-Centauri, over pretty much the same sort of issues I outlined above.  This potential conflict is likely to drag in Mars (defense arrangements with the Fed, with the possibility of expansion deals with them), Argentina (Japan would like to make a deal with them, or the Federation will, for help or neutrality), and Manchuria, who would definitely jump on Japan on Earth if she starts to lose or the opportunity presents itself, though I am not sure if Manchuria can defeat the Japanese on Earth even if the Japanese lose in space.

Manchuria-Russia, over dominance, colonies, security or something else in the Russo-Manchurian arm they both inhabit.  This one probably won't happen if Manchuria finds good territory to expand into, allowing both nations to expend their excess energy peacefully expanding.  I will say a first strike on the other by either side would be very risky while most of their people, industry, and shipyards remain on Earth.  Steve's NATO vs Soviet Campaign demonstrated what a few simple mistakes result in.  All bets are off though if one side manages to find a position of, "acceptable losses".


What I am interested in seeing is what sort of response the other powers have to conflicts that do not directly involve them, but have the potential to badly damage them.  For instance, the American and French response to war between Germany and the Caliphate, or any sort of large scale fighting on or near Earth by any power.  Never forget the Trans-Newtonian campaign disaster.  :D
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Witty on September 05, 2015, 10:05:28 AM
Aww man, this is gearing up to be a sick campaign ;D
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: alex_brunius on September 05, 2015, 03:46:05 PM
First Nation to evacuate earth get to nuke it!  ;D
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Kolyin on September 05, 2015, 06:56:08 PM
Ha! I was thinking the same thing Alex.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: hyramgraff on September 05, 2015, 09:01:54 PM
I'm eager to see how well Russia can exploit the new ruins.  I'm also wondering if America will attempt to integrate the new species that they found into their empire.

Also, do the nations that have explored extra systems have any overlap in what they've explored?  It would be quite the surprise for the Russians if one of the other powers found a back door into their "secure" space.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Rabid_Cog on September 06, 2015, 08:28:14 AM
About that new species... Am I correct in guessing that the Americans are planning to alter the atmospheric composition of the homeworld of another race? That seems like something any sort of Greenpeace organization would object to, even if the race themselves are not able to object.

Even though the resultant atmospheric composition would still be 'ideal' for the Eben mechanically, even a couple of degrees change in average temperature can have a massive impact on the existing natural cycle and lead to extinction events for some of the more fragile species. Not really an issue if the planet is uninhabited (or contains only very primitive organisms), but for another sentient species' homeworld? Umm...

I can see that as a cause that some politicians can rally people behind and possibly get a couple of votes.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on September 06, 2015, 08:29:59 AM
if aurora has taught me anything, it's that throwing enough duranium at a problem will solve anything!
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 06, 2015, 08:33:36 AM
About that new species... Am I correct in guessing that the Americans are planning to alter the atmospheric composition of the homeworld of another race? That seems like something any sort of Greenpeace organization would object to, even if the race themselves are not able to object.

Even though the resultant atmospheric composition would still be 'ideal' for the Eben mechanically, even a couple of degrees change in average temperature can have a massive impact on the existing natural cycle and lead to extinction events for some of the more fragile species. Not really an issue if the planet is uninhabited (or contains only very primitive organisms), but for another sentient species' homeworld? Umm...

I can see that as a cause that some politicians can rally people behind and possibly get a couple of votes.

Yes, you are correct :)

I agree that Greenpeace, or the 22nd Century equivalent, wouldn't be happy, although they don't usually have much influence on US foreign policy (under most Presidents anyway) :)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on September 06, 2015, 09:39:09 AM
When America will start feeling the pressure of its vulnerable status on Earth having seen many of the other superpowers evacuating and its only sizeable colony being easily accessible I don't doubt there will be hard case of turning the blind eye not only on the environmental disruption but on the more comprehensive ''integration''.

Actually I think it would be quite interesting seeing Americans trying to rebuild their Empire integrating both human and non-human races as some kind of Star Trek Federation when the inevitable nuclear showdown hits Earth.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: swarm_sadist on September 10, 2015, 02:37:25 PM
I think it would be hilarious if the Russian and American arm both joined together at each end due by a dormant jump point. Other than that, interesting game.

PS: Do you experience a lot of slowdown in a game with that many systems?
PPS: Do you use dice, or some other way of RPing multiple factions at once?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 10, 2015, 02:54:41 PM
I think it would be hilarious if the Russian and American arm both joined together at each end due by a dormant jump point. Other than that, interesting game.

PS: Do you experience a lot of slowdown in a game with that many systems?
PPS: Do you use dice, or some other way of RPing multiple factions at once?

Its getting slower. I am using 1 day updates and it is taking perhaps 5-10 seconds per increment. I am in April 2105 at the moment.

I don't use dice. I just play each race from their perspective.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Prapor on September 18, 2015, 02:01:24 PM
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=7890.  msg80917#msg80917 date=1441914881
Its getting slower.   I am using 1 day updates and it is taking perhaps 5-10 seconds per increment.   I am in April 2105 at the moment. 

I don't use dice.   I just play each race from their perspective. 

I think we will not soon see new version. 

As I can see, you don't use carriers at this game.   this is due to difficulties in controlling? Or another reasons?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Mastik on September 18, 2015, 02:23:38 PM
How does he keep his galactic map so neat?  Mine always end up a mess.   :'(
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 18, 2015, 04:30:33 PM
I think we will not soon see new version. 

As I can see, you don't use carriers at this game.   this is due to difficulties in controlling? Or another reasons?

The various powers didn't have tech but the USA is currently building its first carrier (24,000 ton Kennedy class) - they just don't have fighters yet :)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Anarade Relle on September 20, 2015, 03:01:25 AM
Gunboat swarm instead, perhaps!

Great AAR. Hopefully China won't be destroyed. :)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on September 20, 2015, 11:32:15 AM
How does he keep his galactic map so neat?  Mine always end up a mess.   :'(

One of the changes (and surprisingly the one I'm most looking forward to) in the upcoming version is fewer jump points per system on average. Which should make it easier to create neat, linear looking strategic maps. And also make strategic positioning and fuel supply more important.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 20, 2015, 01:35:54 PM
One of the changes (and surprisingly the one I'm most looking forward to) in the upcoming version is fewer jump points per system on average. Which should make it easier to create neat, linear looking strategic maps. And also make strategic positioning and fuel supply more important.

Yes, this is making a huge difference to the strategic side of play - much more interesting now to have to operate at significant distances from home.

Regarding the maps, I use the right-click option on the Galactic Map to line them up.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on September 20, 2015, 06:25:00 PM
The conflict between the Brazil/Caliphate alliance and the Centauri Federation could cause things to heat up fast. Seems like a smart move by Brazil; three planets makes them a ripe target, and there does seem to be a decent chance that the other powers wouldn't interfere, especially if they're all busy with their own expansion.

Just looking at the updates, it's possible it could expand to include Mars on the Centauri side, and possibly Japan on the side of the Terran faction (The Federation has been working on diplomacy with Mars, but has contested colonies with Japan). Unfortunately Mars has (quite reasonably) focused on immobile defense bases, and couldn't do much in the Centauri system, though their patrol ships would be a huge pain for enemy supply lines in Sol.

Taking this into wild speculation territory, because I'm bored, I'm looking at what those powers can bring to a fight.

The Federation navy is exclusively missile armed, which I suspect would serve them well in a defensive war. Aggressors would be away from their own sources of supply, but the Federation ships could replenish their missiles from their own colonies, and would be well positioned to win any war of attrition. They also have massively better sensors than their potential opponents. I find it surprising they haven't constructed any defense platforms considering how big a target they are, but I suppose with multiple habitable worlds their planners may think stationary defenses are an invitation to defeat in detail. As of the last update, their armed vessel tonnage is at 91,800, though I wouldn't be surprised if they have added another cruiser for a total of 102,000. That's slightly deceptive, though, since their jump ships are unarmed but useful due to their powerful sensors.

Brazil's railgun and gauss armed vessels provide potent point-defense coverage against Federation missiles, and they have a slight speed advantage so they could potentially chase them down if the Federation tries to engage them in deep space, or if they manage an ambush. Their navy currently has a combined tonnage of 102,000, with 36,000 tons currently under construction. A respectable force if they can manage a decisive battle against the Federation, and their powerful PD capabilities mean it's entirely possible they could stop all but a trickle of Federation missiles.

The Caliphate's FAC based navy is tricky. It currently has 90 armed FACs, but can't transport them all at once, and its ability to maintain and resupply the ships on site means they could be a thorn in the Federation's side if used well. Their missile armed FACs could almost certainly pound the Federation ships without coming under fire themselves, and if the Federation leaves orbit to try to chase the carriers down (assuming they can even find them, even with their sensor advantage), they'll lose most of their defensive advantages. Their combined tonnage is probably around 87,000 tons, but being FACs can likely hit above their weight class. They have about 11,000 tons more under construction, but the real limit is carrying capacity; their carriers can field 84 FACs (96 once their additional carriers finish), of which several will be unarmed sensor craft.


In the land of ideal battle planning, Brazil and the Caliphate combined could probably easily deal with the Federation using smart tactics; the Caliphate's missile FACs let them pound the Federation at range, while Brazil's navy can run down and destroy the Federation's if it gets a chance. On the other hand, Steve might easily have them split up, since it's probably not realistic that they would cooperate closely, and each hit a different planet. In that case, I think the Federation might have a chance by wearing down the enemy ships while avoiding a decisive engagement. The Caliphate carriers are also extremely vulnerable target, and the Federation's sensors and likely DSTSs on their colonies means they'd have a definite recon advantage. It would still be extremely difficult for the Federation navy to get past Brazil's potent point defense, though.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 21, 2015, 01:08:48 PM
Just found an interesting star in this campaign. NN 3966 is an O8-V with a mass of 25 and luminosity of 40,000. Survey per location is 2000 survey points and the outer survey ring is at 30b km. The innermost planet has a nitrogen - oxygen atmosphere (0.22 atm) and a temperature of 47C but orbits at twenty-eight billion kilometers!

The tenth planet, a superjovian, orbits at thirty-eight trillion kilometers, which is not much different than the distance from Sol to Proxima Centauri :)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on September 21, 2015, 05:18:42 PM
So..... How about those hyperdrives? :p
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on September 21, 2015, 05:46:58 PM
at what luminosity should a star start damaging ships? xD
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on September 21, 2015, 06:02:44 PM
Just found an interesting star in this campaign. NN 3966 is an O8-V with a mass of 25 and luminosity of 40,000. Survey per location is 2000 survey points and the outer survey ring is at 30b km. The innermost planet has a nitrogen - oxygen atmosphere (0.22 atm) and a temperature of 47C but orbits at twenty-eight billion kilometers!

The tenth planet, a superjovian, orbits at thirty-eight trillion kilometers, which is not much different than the distance from Sol to Proxima Centauri :)

Sounds like something went a little crazy in the system generation algorithm  ;D

France's update was cool. Them discovering shield tech and prototypes in a ruin and then developing their own is a nice flavorful development; I hope it works out well for them.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Garfunkel on September 21, 2015, 07:14:30 PM
Not necessarily. YV Canis Majoris has a mass of 25 (upper estimate, lowest estimate is 9) and a luminosity of 270,000 so I think that's what Steve found!

at what luminosity should a star start damaging ships? xD
Now that's a good question! Or at least damage shields.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: dgibso29 on September 21, 2015, 07:34:09 PM
France's update was cool. Them discovering shield tech and prototypes in a ruin and then developing their own is a nice flavorful development; I hope it works out well for them.

My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on September 22, 2015, 07:04:58 AM
Can system this huge even form in a natural way without its star becoming a black hole?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on September 22, 2015, 08:02:19 AM
I believe the energy of fusion prevents collapse until the star begins to burn out, at 10 or more stellar masses you'll probably get a black hole when it does.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: xeryon on September 22, 2015, 08:16:32 AM
Long ago after discovering an O class monstrosity in Aurora myself I did a little Wikipedia homework on them.  As far as I can tell that system shouldn't have any planets.  Either the solar wind from a star that large and intense is supposed to be strong enough to blow much of the planet building materials from the local neighborhood.  Not only from it's own immediate system but it is supposedly enough to disrupt or stop planet formation in neighboring star systems as well.  I guess it can be really complicated though as an O classification is usually just a transitional phase.  It's what happens very early on in some supergiant formation (where planet formations wouldn't have happened yet) or at the tail end of some stellar lifespans (the planets that might have formed at a different spectral level would be destroyed by the solar fluctuations.

I'm not educated in this.  I just find it very fascinating.  Anyone with more knowledge should correct me.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Mel Vixen on September 22, 2015, 01:13:31 PM
Well you could get some plantes from smaller stars passing or from the occasional planet drifting by. Heh let the french do the Math and conclude that this system is impossible.

"Le Boss this system is from la manufactur."
"Wait someone BUILD a STAR system? Also what the hell? Why are you mocking my French heritage! "

Quick question, we do see quite a bit of diplomacy, will there be actual diplomatic options (like trading minerals) ?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 22, 2015, 03:03:08 PM
Quick question, we do see quite a bit of diplomacy, will there be actual diplomatic options (like trading minerals) ?

Possibly. I have been considering that in a couple of situations. Perhaps even selling older ships to other powers once newer designs are available.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sematary on September 23, 2015, 02:19:06 AM
There is a really interesting diplomatic situation developing between Argentina, Centauri, Japan, Manchuria, and Russia. Argentina is friendly with Japan and Manchuria while they are looking hostilely at Centauri. Manchuria is looking at Centauri the same way and is friends with Argentina but they are being squeezed by Japan and Russia. Japan is looking warily at Centauri expecting hostilities eventually with that power so is in a friendly spot with Argentina but with the carving out of space between them and Russia leaving Manchuria pretty high and dry a tripartite pact between Argentina, Japan, and Manchuria is starting to look pretty unlikely.

In fact Japan may rather have Centauri stay in place rather than having Manchuria boarding them in two spots. This might actually work to the favor of the Centauri, especially if Japan somehow learns about the Argentina-Manchuria pact. Japan may side with their almost enemy in order to deny Manchuria a planet in Alpha Centauri, even if it would hurt Argentina.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on September 23, 2015, 03:57:06 AM
I'm playing through a similar scenario at the moment, however the 5 other nations are all being run as NPRs, as a result I have absolutely no information about the status of the other powers relationships with each other. I have no idea of the population, production, research strengths and weaknesses or fleet strengths, no idea even how far they have explored, but I see a chinese gate builder wandering around sometimes.
In one way it's disappointing as I lose out on all the political and diplomatic interaction that I've grown accustomed to, but on the other hand it's good because I'm virtually in the dark about my potential adversaries. Except for all the intelligence I have gathered about the swarm of ships rushing through the solar system, the knowledge is very rudimentary and I don't even see most of them on sensors most of the time, greater investment on sensors will help with that, but I do appear to be outnumbered and the truce timer runs out in 5 years.
I'm wondering if a future version could allow more information to be gathered on NPRs as a result of spies, or even minor intelligence just from having good relations and trading. Specifically economic information, knowledge of research they have (not stealing the tech itself) and maybe information on exploration, colony location etc, and some indication of how NPRs are interacting with each other.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: alex_brunius on September 23, 2015, 05:52:34 AM
I'm wondering if a future version could allow more information to be gathered on NPRs as a result of spies, or even minor intelligence just from having good relations and trading. Specifically economic information, knowledge of research they have (not stealing the tech itself) and maybe information on exploration, colony location etc, and some indication of how NPRs are interacting with each other.

Yeah, just trading should give you loads of information since it involves frequent and numerous interactions. Sharing colonies on the same planet with aliens should mean you know almost everything about the aliens via rumors, especially with some spies gathering intel.

And it would be very minor for an intel organization to hide trackers in tradegoods or simply shadow an alien trade-ship with smaller undetectable shuttle crafts to find out any destination they are going to and gather IR and EM signatures of colony and even some warships running actives via passives.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on September 23, 2015, 08:13:25 AM
Most 4x games do give some level of information about your opponents, usually that's on a loser system like a single planet though. I think sharing a planet should be fairly good fir gathering intelligence and also improving relations. There is the risk of course that an incident will cause relations to get worse as a result of the shared planet.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on September 23, 2015, 10:23:57 AM
In fact Japan may rather have Centauri stay in place rather than having Manchuria boarding them in two spots. This might actually work to the favor of the Centauri, especially if Japan somehow learns about the Argentina-Manchuria pact. Japan may side with their almost enemy in order to deny Manchuria a planet in Alpha Centauri, even if it would hurt Argentina.

As long as Japan has its shipyards in transit, I doubt they'll intervene on either side. They're just too vulnerable to risk, and while they have some tension with both Manchuria and Centauri, they also have plentiful room of their own to expand, unlike Brazil and the Caliphate.

Once they move most of their stuff to Edo, though, they'll probably be much more free to act, but the question remains about whether they will or just focus on peaceful expansion.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on September 23, 2015, 01:33:51 PM
As long as Japan has its shipyards in transit, I doubt they'll intervene on either side. They're just too vulnerable to risk, and while they have some tension with both Manchuria and Centauri, they also have plentiful room of their own to expand, unlike Brazil and the Caliphate.

Once they move most of their stuff to Edo, though, they'll probably be much more free to act, but the question remains about whether they will or just focus on peaceful expansion.

The fact that their shipyards are in transit in the area might be the very same fact that gives some hope to Centaurans. I don't doubt Japan will find it alarming that both Caliphate and Brasil are concentrating their fleets so close to its shipyards (and accompanying fleet).On the other hand Japan might just as well decide to participate in the partition of Centaurans and grab one of the major planets.

In any case it seems like a tall order for The Centauri Federation. On the other hand land grabs by minor powers usually earn retribution from major powers unwilling to see their ranks swell with a new contender.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Shinanygnz on September 23, 2015, 01:46:49 PM
Sounds like something went a little crazy in the system generation algorithm  ;D

France's update was cool. Them discovering shield tech and prototypes in a ruin and then developing their own is a nice flavorful development; I hope it works out well for them.

Sorry, but had to smite you for suggesting such nonsense ;-) :D
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on September 23, 2015, 05:10:16 PM
Sorry, but had to smite you for suggesting such nonsense ;-) :D

Which, that Aurora produced unanticipated results or that France might succeed at something?  :P
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on September 26, 2015, 03:25:51 PM
*waves "Go Russia" flag*

Russia hasn't progressed much, but has a lot of potential if they manage to exploit their finds. Of course, with how far they are from Earth and how many jump point connections the Epsilon Eridani area has, I wouldn't be surprised if some other power stumbles onto it sooner rather than later. Luckily the leadership seems to be playing it smart and trying to grab them ASAP.

Great to see a bunch of updates today. There's a lot to follow between all the nations' updates.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Haji on September 27, 2015, 11:29:44 AM
I've noticed that many of your campaigns (including this one) seems to have one problem, namely the way you role play information flow.
Back in the NATO vs Soviets (your best campaign still in my opinion) you stated that both sides were keeping their encounters with aliens a secret from other nations. However a few years later, when the Eridani Republic was being considered, you stated that one of the reasons for it's creation was to push NATO's problem with aliens into someone else - and you never stated whether it was unofficial reason, or if the aliens have become public knowledge and so on.
Something similar is happening here in the case of the aliens in this campaign. You never said that their existence is a classified material and the fact that US is going to establish a colony on their planet (and even modify it's atmosphere) would argue that their existence cannot be a secret. Yet it is treated as a very big one, so big a relatively friendly government (UK) has no idea the new race even exists, much less where.
It is of course a rather minor quibble, and otherwise the campaign is a great read, but I think it's something you could improve on.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Krictic on September 27, 2015, 04:38:08 PM
What happenned to Ebensburg?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on September 27, 2015, 08:11:53 PM
I wondered how the US was going to convince the Eben to allow their planet to be terraformed. Apparently the answer was "they're not." The future doesn't seem bright for the Eben.

Maybe some day brave Russian soldiers will teach those fascist Americans to respect the rights of primitive natives. I wonder what the Russian name equivalent to "Rambo" is  ;D

What happenned to Ebensburg?

I think Ebensburg is just the nation of the Eben. They're conventional tech.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: alex_brunius on September 28, 2015, 10:05:39 AM
Something similar is happening here in the case of the aliens in this campaign. You never said that their existence is a classified material and the fact that US is going to establish a colony on their planet (and even modify it's atmosphere) would argue that their existence cannot be a secret. Yet it is treated as a very big one, so big a relatively friendly government (UK) has no idea the new race even exists, much less where.
It is of course a rather minor quibble, and otherwise the campaign is a great read, but I think it's something you could improve on.

Have to agree with this here. UK and US trade shipping being the most widespread especially undermines that they would be able to hide this. An automated mining colony or smaller military bases maybe could be hidden, but when your talking about hundreds of thousands inhabitants in an environment where they can move around freely...

Word would get out within days or weeks and first gossip would spread then other nations would investigate and soon evidence would be presented. It's even plausible a nation opposing of USA would try to capture and sneak out a live inhabitant and present the "ultimate" proof in front of UN back on Earth where they would make their case and plead for the other nations of humanity to save their race which would be a huge scandal.

I wonder what the Russian name equivalent to "Rambo" is  ;D

Pretty sure it's their paratroopers :)

Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on September 28, 2015, 12:54:47 PM
As far as keeping it secret, I think it's worth noting that this isn't the US we think of; from the background they've gone through what sounds suspiciously like a right wing fascist revolution. They may well have drastically curtailed freedom of the press and civil liberties, making it at least vaguely possible they could keep word of the aliens from spreading.

Pretty sure it's their paratroopers :)


I don't know if it's the expressions, the music, or the closeups of young men swaying back and forth, but watching that all I could think of was "I thought Russia made 'homosexual propaganda' illegal."

I mean, really, "A white bouquet of parachutes, a soaring dome of rainbow peace?"
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sematary on September 28, 2015, 01:00:36 PM
There is also the fact that depending on Steve's method of communication in this world the people on the planet are very far from space controlled by anyone other than the US, they may not have an opportunity to talk to anyone else.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on September 28, 2015, 01:02:49 PM
We don't know the nature of this USA colony. It is plausible that it is one way trip (with possible restrictions like families of naval and army members). Trade ships (if commercial traffic is allowed at all) might be  allowed only on orbital bases or other satellites where they would be unable to gauge pre-industrial population properly and wouldn't come into contact with natives only military personnel.
There surely are precedents like this on planets containing alien outposts. And while this planet may seem more suspicious than others there has to be only plausible deniability as there got to be thousands of different rumours and crackpot theories about alien encounters.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Haji on September 28, 2015, 01:18:52 PM
As far as keeping it secret, I think it's worth noting that this isn't the US we think of; from the background they've gone through what sounds suspiciously like a right wing fascist revolution. They may well have drastically curtailed freedom of the press and civil liberties, making it at least vaguely possible they could keep word of the aliens from spreading.

I don't mind if that's the case, but that's the thing - the way information is spreading around is never explained. I think Steve is just using whether information can be gathered by nations in game, which is fine when playing, but not so fine when role-playing as Aurora really doesn't handle day to day news traffic well. In addition it seems like Steve isn't using the espionage system in this particular campaign, which basically means any nation has total and uncontested information control of it's activities.
When I think of information flow in a campaign like this, I try to imagine this from perspective of today's internet. For example, technical details may be classified, but we know how many Arleigh Burke class ships US (or it's trade partners) possess, how many missiles the class has and of what kind and so on. We know the geography of each and every nation, and even locations of many secret installations. There is also much unwonted information getting out of nations with known censorship, like China. Overall in a campaign that is being role played, unless massive changes to communications occur, much of general information should be available to any and each nation, unless something is specifically kept secret. But whether or not such changes occurred in this universe, is unknown as it was never discussed. Hence why I believe that Steve could improve his role playing of information flow, even if by just stating "this and that is supposed to be a secret".
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: SteelChicken on September 28, 2015, 01:40:19 PM
You are taking it all way too seriously.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Haji on September 28, 2015, 01:56:05 PM
Yes and no. On the one hand I enjoy the campaign anyway. On the other hand I think it may be even better. Consider this to be my way of showing affection.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sematary on September 28, 2015, 01:59:28 PM
Today's internet does not work on such a massive interstellar scale. Steve is generally not a fan of ansible tech which means FTL communication only works with jump engines or jump gates. That is all controlled by governments. Its completely plausible.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 28, 2015, 05:21:40 PM
The alien race is on a planet that has only been surveyed by the US and the UK is the only other power that knows the system even exists. There is a small US colony visited by the US Navy and a very occasional civilian ship. Considering the only way for the colonists to talk to the rest of the universe is via the jump gate network plus the importance of the information, I don't think controlling the information flow would be very difficult. That is assuming most of the colony is even aware of the existence of the aliens. A planet is a pretty big place. Besides, the Manhattan project stayed pretty secret and that was on the same heavily populated planet as many other nations, not twenty billion miles away with only a single communication link.

(and yes you may be taking it too seriously :) - I don't think keeping the Eben secret is the most implausible part of the AAR)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: alex_brunius on September 28, 2015, 06:32:11 PM
The alien race is on a planet that has only been surveyed by the US and the UK is the only other power that knows the system even exists. There is a small US colony visited by the US Navy and a very occasional civilian ship. Considering the only way for the colonists to talk to the rest of the universe is via the jump gate network plus the importance of the information, I don't think controlling the information flow would be very difficult. That is assuming most of the colony is even aware of the existence of the aliens. A planet is a pretty big place. Besides, the Manhattan project stayed pretty secret and that was on the same heavily populated planet as many other nations, not twenty billion miles away with only a single communication link.

(and yes you may be taking it too seriously :) - I don't think keeping the Eben secret is the most implausible part of the AAR)

I think it depends greatly on your view of what actually happens below the game simulation scale.

If we for example assume the world is alive and buzzling with personal/corporate shuttles, yachts, small trade ships, small explorer & leisure ships that have similar range and speeds of bigger civilian ships it becomes a different matter entirely...

The implications is that any knowledge within the jumpgate network and not under strictly enforced military blockade is spread at minimum with the speed of the civilian shipping. Because thousands of civilian smallships, especially near the less policed and regulated fringes can land at a whim more or less where, how and when they want.

These would also be the preferred method of choice for espionage and eavesdropping on transmissions since as long as you don't have active emissions and behave within the expected realm of what civilians would do you won't be suspicious.


I don't think these assumptions are totally off. Translate the Aurora travel-times to current Earth and consider how many private jets, helicopters, yachts and smaller tradeships below the cargo liner scales that traffic our oceans and skies.

I know it's a big matter of personal taste, but when I RP Aurora I always assume everything within the jumpgate network is public knowledge of all races and factions that can communicate and trade with eachother.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on September 28, 2015, 07:58:36 PM
even if you assume  that to be true, it only works inside the jumpgate network.  anyplace that requires a jumpship to get to has its access and communication completely controlled by the state.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on September 28, 2015, 09:20:18 PM
Well, regardless, I think it's fair for Steve to handle it how he wants.

At worst I figure the higher ups in the civilian trade lines are firmly under the US government's thumb and they know they'll be arrested if they spill word about how their trade ships can see evidence of non-human civilization on a US colony.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Nathan_ on September 28, 2015, 11:06:31 PM
I wondered how the US was going to convince the Eben to allow their planet to be terraformed. Apparently the answer was "they're not." The future doesn't seem bright for the Eben.

Maybe some day brave Russian soldiers will teach those fascist Americans to respect the rights of primitive natives. I wonder what the Russian name equivalent to "Rambo" is  ;D

I think Ebensburg is just the nation of the Eben. They're conventional tech.
"why are you doing this?"
"Because we want to fully exploit your world."
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on September 28, 2015, 11:16:30 PM
I'm sure there's a company somewhere who wants their valuable unobtanium.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: sneer on September 29, 2015, 03:00:17 AM
[quote
"why are you doing this?"
"Because we want to fully exploit your world."
[/quote]

Earth RL potential nightmare ....
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: alex_brunius on September 29, 2015, 04:15:00 AM
even if you assume  that to be true, it only works inside the jumpgate network.  anyplace that requires a jumpship to get to has its access and communication completely controlled by the state.

Assuming jumpdrive technology is still a military/state controlled secret yes.

As we know all military inventions, especially those that are useful for civilian purposes tend to eventually find their ways into the civilian market ( either through legal or less legal means ). Give it say 5-20 years in an open society and 20-50 years in a close one and all manner of small civilian ships from private company prospectors wanting an edge to shady businesses or smugglers wanting to avoid attention and plain explorers or thrill seekers will own ships equipped with jump drives. Location of jump points is also simply a matter of information and as such can be traded to those with money providing an incentive for "entrepreneurs" either getting their hands on grav survey equipment or leaking secret government info.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TallTroll on September 29, 2015, 06:51:11 AM
>> Give it say 5-20 years in an open society and 20-50 years in a close one and all manner of small civilian ships from private company prospectors wanting an edge to shady businesses or smugglers wanting to avoid attention and plain explorers or thrill seekers will own ships equipped with jump drives

I disagree here. Even if the theoretical knowledge got out,

1) Where would you build / how would you pay for such a vessel? Most shipyards are government owned, and all are surely government monitored, even in open societies

2) How would you get an unregistered ship anywhere useful? 5 secs after launch, every Navy sees it, no-one they recognise owns it, it gets shot down
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: alex_brunius on September 29, 2015, 07:07:54 AM
I disagree here. Even if the theoretical knowledge got out,

1) Where would you build / how would you pay for such a vessel? Most shipyards are government owned, and all are surely government monitored, even in open societies

Where are all the hundreds of civilian trade ships built? Certainly not in any of your shipyards...

For every shipyard outside government control that can build a 20000 ton bulk cargo ship there should be at least a few dozen that can build ships between 5 - 2000 ton.

And remember we are talking about a setting with multiple government and break away states, there will always be at least a few other systems where you can get ships built and registered even if your own government is actively preventing this ( why would they? )

Is your government actively monitoring hundreds of small private shipyards among dozens of systems ( including those of hostile states ) to ensure no one builds and sells you a small space shuttle that doesn't comply with their standards?

2) How would you get an unregistered ship anywhere useful? 5 secs after launch, every Navy sees it, no-one they recognise owns it, it gets shot down

There wouldn't be many unregistered craft ( unless in the absolute fringe or pirate systems ).

How does today's smaller civilian ships and airplanes go anywhere useful without getting shot down by the Navy? Does you nations navy shoot to kill just because a civilian ship or airplane happens to be registered in the Bahamas and they are uncertain who is driving it?

Just because a ship or airplane today is registered doesn't mean it's in any way under control, just that it complied with the rules at the time and location of launch. I'm sure there are many civilian airplanes and ships around the globe that had modifications done to them after getting registered without informing the proper authorities or military ( or without the authorities or military even caring ).

With thousands of small ships around ( and more getting launched by the day the more advanced tech and cheaper they become ) it would become progressively easier to hide a retrofitted jump-drive on some of them ( if their civilian use is even banned by authorities in the first place, why are we assuming that now again? ).


The only plausible setting where you can prevent civilian jumps to a bigger degree despite later tech is an active military blockade or heavy police controls on all the actual jump points ( similar to an authority check today when you go through for example a canal with your ship or are forced to land with your airplane ).
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: sublight on September 29, 2015, 07:50:19 AM
For every shipyard outside government control that can build a 20000 ton bulk cargo ship there should be at least a few dozen that can build ships between 5 - 2000 ton.

Maybe, but also irrelevant. That is smaller than the minimum jump drive tech known so the civilians will not be moving off-network, and with jump points the military is probably picketing that system anyway for military training exercises.

Even if the civilian mining companies own a few dozen fighter-sized courier craft for in-system operations and even if a Saudi prince or two had acquired custom versions for personal use it is unlikely they would have the inclination, range, or endurance to wander as far as Eta Cassiopeiae... and even if they did they would probably only bounce off a military blockade.

I'd say the real weakness for exposure would come form the crewman of the military and commercial ships that have already visited. From the timeline it looks like the aliens have only been known for 2.5 years, so saying they are still secret (or at least nothing more than a discredited conspiracy theory) is plausible. Of course, sooner or later one of the civilian ships that visited will be scrapped and the former crew will start talking, a retiree will make a death bed confession, or a conscientious objector will defect and the urban legend will become scandal... but for now the secrecy could continue for at least a couple more years.

Edit: I stand corrected.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: alex_brunius on September 29, 2015, 07:56:48 AM
Maybe, but also irrelevant. That is smaller than the minimum jump drive tech known so the civilians will not be moving off-network

Isn't the minimum jump drive size just if you want to escort other ships? For self jumps only they can be as small as you want to make them I think.

Even if the civilian mining companies own a few dozen fighter-sized courier craft for in-system operations and even if a Saudi prince or two had acquired custom versions for personal use it is unlikely they would have the inclination, range, or endurance to wander as far as Eta Cassiopeiae... and even if they did they would probably only bounce off a military blockade.

Regarding amount of small civilian spaceships I think we can envision a gradual scale.
- Initially they would be similar to airplanes 50-100 years ago ( just a few ultra rich enthusiasts owned one ).
- After a while the industry matures and they are more similar to private jets today ( still few in numbers but most bigger corporations or top wealthy would own one or be able to access one).
- More tech advancements and they become more like small ships today, quite many in numbers, far beyond what can be effectively monitored and controlled by authorities.
- Very high tech scenarios ( Engine tech 7/8 upwards ), small spacecraft are more like cars of today, everyone own one and use them to move around freely within the system or between systems at speed. The daily commute to your orbital space station where you work is becoming tedious...

I'd say the real weakness for exposure would come form the crewman of the military and commercial ships that have already visited.

Agreed. A colony of 300k+ inhabitants, major terraforming operations and military presence would probably expose millions to the system after a few years including rotations.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Paul M on September 29, 2015, 09:40:36 AM
In all probability the jig will be up the first time a ship goes into port for a shore leave and the crew goes into a bar.  Someone will get drunk and say the wrong thing.  Not to mention letters home, souvaniers or what not.  Keeping the fact aliens have been found secret unless they use draconian methods is unlikely to last any significant amount of time, less than 5 years at a guess based on gut feeling.  The value of selling that information is probably substantial so there is incentive for the disenchanted.  It also depends on the nature of the censorship that is typical for the society as even the lack of news would tip off the other nations there is something odd about Eta Cassiopia...mention that and you get dead silence...why is that?

As for the colony, it is unlikely that the human colony would not end up near the aliens.  This is due to the fact that habitation tends to cluster in specific geography.  It is possible to put the human colony in some wastelands the aliens don't inhabit but then the colony is isolated from water, farmland, resources, waterways, coast lines etc.  A small research base in the high artic to observe the aliens ... a thriving 300K person resource extraction settlement not likely.

Modern engineers planning bridges in europe often have to deal with the fact the best sites are occupied ... by Roman bridges or remains of them.  I would expect all the easily inhabitable land on the planet to be inhabited (unless there are isolated land masses for the colony to be placed on).
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on September 29, 2015, 01:54:19 PM
In all probability the jig will be up the first time a ship goes into port for a shore leave and the crew goes into a bar.  Someone will get drunk and say the wrong thing.  Not to mention letters home, souvaniers or what not.  Keeping the fact aliens have been found secret unless they use draconian methods is unlikely to last any significant amount of time, less than 5 years at a guess based on gut feeling.  The value of selling that information is probably substantial so there is incentive for the disenchanted.  It also depends on the nature of the censorship that is typical for the society as even the lack of news would tip off the other nations there is something odd about Eta Cassiopia...mention that and you get dead silence...why is that?

While true, it's also pretty much equally true for navigation details and colonies that don't have intelligent natives. In that situation every nation on Earth would have agents camping out in spacer bars offering to buy them drinks for details about their trip, and any colonies and trade routes would rapidly become known to everyone.

However, that's probably not the kind of story Steve is interested in writing, and IMHO this whole discussion is really coming off as rather hostile to him, which I don't like. So hey, let's just assume the governments take precautions there; all civilian ship crews are subject to military restrictions or whatever, but get high pay in return or similar benefits. Maybe there are no civilian "yachts" due to the damage they could do with a ramming attack, or whatever. It's one of those details that doesn't really matter to the story.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 29, 2015, 04:36:08 PM
While true, it's also pretty much equally true for navigation details and colonies that don't have intelligent natives. In that situation every nation on Earth would have agents camping out in spacer bars offering to buy them drinks for details about their trip, and any colonies and trade routes would rapidly become known to everyone.

However, that's probably not the kind of story Steve is interested in writing, and IMHO this whole discussion is really coming off as rather hostile to him, which I don't like. So hey, let's just assume the governments take precautions there; all civilian ship crews are subject to military restrictions or whatever, but get high pay in return or similar benefits. Maybe there are no civilian "yachts" due to the damage they could do with a ramming attack, or whatever. It's one of those details that doesn't really matter to the story.

Yes, the whole point of having a lot of different factions is that each one has different knowledge, otherwise everyone would know the same best systems / ruins and everyone would colonise those. Perhaps that is more realistic (I don't really have a strong opinion either way), but it wouldn't be as entertaining to play or read and I do have a strong opinion on that. I'm setting up this campaign to give different nations different problems. As I explained in the first setup post "The major issue I have found in the past with multiple races starting on Earth is that to an extent they all do similar things. They build ships to accomplish similar missions, explore the Sol JPs, explore the nearby systems and establish colonies, run into the same resource shortages, etc.. Therefore I thought it might be more interesting if each race was presented with a different set of problems".

I don't mind if someone doesn't like the setup, or cannot suspend disbelief in certain areas; it's a matter of personal opinion. In fact, I suspect 95% of gamers don't even like Aurora in general, regardless of the campaign, because it will only appeal to a small sub-set of people. People disagreeing with me doesn't really bother me - I've learned that life is so much easier that way :). I will just say however that I am not going to change the way the campaign is running, as I am really enjoying it :). I don't mind anyone else continuing to talk about the subject on in this thread but I'm going to withdraw from the debate on this particular issue. Happy to answer questions on other subjects related to the campaign.

Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sematary on September 29, 2015, 07:07:58 PM
Yes, the whole point of having a lot of different factions is that each one has different knowledge, otherwise everyone would know the same best systems / ruins and everyone would colonise those. Perhaps that is more realistic (I don't really have a strong opinion either way), but it wouldn't be as entertaining to play or read and I do have a strong opinion on that. I'm setting up this campaign to give different nations different problems. As I explained in the first setup post "The major issue I have found in the past with multiple races starting on Earth is that to an extent they all do similar things. They build ships to accomplish similar missions, explore the Sol JPs, explore the nearby systems and establish colonies, run into the same resource shortages, etc.. Therefore I thought it might be more interesting if each race was presented with a different set of problems".

I don't mind if someone doesn't like the setup, or cannot suspend disbelief in certain areas; it's a matter of personal opinion. In fact, I suspect 95% of gamers don't even like Aurora in general, regardless of the campaign, because it will only appeal to a small sub-set of people. People disagreeing with me doesn't really bother me - I've learned that life is so much easier that way :). I will just say however that I am not going to change the way the campaign is running, as I am really enjoying it :). I don't mind anyone else continuing to talk about the subject on in this thread but I'm going to withdraw from the debate on this particular issue. Happy to answer questions on other subjects related to the campaign.
I know I am enjoying this. I think the whole passion in this debate arises from everyone involved enjoying the story.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MWadwell on September 29, 2015, 08:06:35 PM
I'm wondering if a future version could allow more information to be gathered on NPRs as a result of spies, or even minor intelligence just from having good relations and trading. Specifically economic information, knowledge of research they have (not stealing the tech itself) and maybe information on exploration, colony location etc, and some indication of how NPRs are interacting with each other.

Yeah, building this into the game would be good - as at the moment we are relying on Steve role playing it. (And while Steve is good at this, it isn't possible to include everything in the updates - as each update would be the size of a novel.)


Examples of this not yet mentioned spying (that is probably going on, but not yet written about in the AAR), is that immigration happening from neutral earth-bound countries. It would be incredibly easy to slip spies into a neutral third nation, and then get them to emigrate.

Similarly, it would then be incredibly easy for them to write back to "relatives" on Earth, including simple coded messages about what is happening in the area (i.e. locations of a single ship / shipyard / mining location / presence of aliens / etc). It wouldn't have to be technical details / drawings / etc, but with a couple of thousand spies spread throughout an enemy country, a reasonably comprehensive overview of the enemy is going to be able to be developed.....


Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on September 30, 2015, 06:07:16 PM
I know I am enjoying this. I think the whole passion in this debate arises from everyone involved enjoying the story.

This is a good point. Isn't there a saying about knowing when you hit the big time because you start getting critics?  ;D
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MWadwell on October 01, 2015, 06:15:40 AM
G'Day Steve,

As an Australian, I've been very interested in the Australian Empire, and as a result, have a few comments to make.....  ;D

With the closeness of the AUS-UK relationship, why isn't there more formal treaties in place?

I understand that AUS-UK have a trade treaty (with Canada), and (unofficially) co-ordinate militarily, but I'm confused over why there isn't (at a minimum) a military treaty between the two nations.

Similarly, with the colonies on common planets, why there isn't better arrangements (i.e. complementing ship designs, R&D specialisation, joint exploration missions, shared R&D projects, shared intelligence) between the two nations?

Afterall - this kind of co-ordination was common between the UK and Australia until the 1960's, and is common today between the US and Australia (i.e. one of the un-spoken rules of ship procurement, is that individual systems are to be as compatible as possible with US systems (for spare parts), and that the overall ship must be capable of acting as part of a US task force). Of course, with NATO being a common arrangement, this means that Australian ships can act with UK ships as well (as witnessed in off Kuwait in 1991).


So, do you think that such a close relationship is possible in your campaign, or are there "issues" that would result in a bit of distance happening.....

Thanks!
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Father Tim on October 02, 2015, 09:14:11 PM
I think the CAN-UK-AUS tripartite alliance works because we (Canada) get the cold parts, you (Australia) get the hot parts, and they (U.K.) get the wet bits in the middle.  A lovely, mutually-beneficial non-competitive arrangement.

Which I too would like to see lead to more tech transfers and sharing. We'll provide the steak, you provide the shrimp, and they can provide the barbie.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on October 03, 2015, 12:05:36 AM
I think the CAN-UK-AUS tripartite alliance works because we (Canada) get the cold parts, you (Australia) get the hot parts, and they (U.K.) get the wet bits in the middle.  A lovely, mutually-beneficial non-competitive arrangement.

Which I too would like to see lead to more tech transfers and sharing. We'll provide the steak, you provide the shrimp, and they can provide the barbie.
Im sorry but Americans call them shrimp, we know sea roaches as prawns.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sematary on October 03, 2015, 12:19:48 AM
Im sorry but Americans call them shrimp, we know sea roaches as prawns.
Prawns and shrimp are different things.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on October 03, 2015, 12:28:01 AM
Prawns and shrimp are different things.
Yes, but nobody would throw a half inch long critter onto a barbie, when paul hogan throws a massive banana prawn onto the grill and calls it a shrimp I shudder. Though watching the ad I realise it was meant as a joke, "Look at our massive shrimp!".
Sometimes I wonder what a grilled race251.bmp would taste like.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Iranon on October 03, 2015, 02:42:57 AM
He isn't wrong though.
Neither term is rigidly defined in a biological sense, and in the most logical use shrimp are just crustaceans that don't like to walk (unlike crabs and lobsters).
Prawn for large shrimp is a pretty superfluous term.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: mrwigggles on October 11, 2015, 02:17:30 AM
I dont think its quite hard at all for the Edbens to remain a secret to the US at large and other powers. If we grant that their renaissance era is 1:1 to Earth... then most of that planet isn't traveled by most of its natives or mapped by its natives and there large patches of planet that are still hunters and gathers.

On Earth during the renaissance era, there would have been tons of places to place a colony that would be  isolated from the natives, to the point where it would take them days or week to reach but mere minuets for the Americans to transverse with aircraft. And this means if the colonist explored around their city, on foot or motorized, they'd be unlikely to reach a village as well.

As for everyone else in orbit, the civilization on the planet would be very hard to tell they exist. First of all, if they happen to just look down at the planet, most of the planet would be empty of native life, so its unlikely that they can just randomly find them. Doubly so, if the station in orbit, was over a region that was devoid of life. The other two big things that be easier to tell from orbit aren't happening on the planet yet. They aren't emitting any EM radiation. And when the planet is dark, their urban centers aren't lit up.

Now if some third party group, were to do a detail examination of the planet, without landing on it, they could tell that renaissance era cities were a thing, with extra amount of sulfur and other burning fuel waste would leave in the atmosphere.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: alex_brunius on October 12, 2015, 05:25:36 AM
I dont think its quite hard at all for the Edbens to remain a secret to the US at large and other powers.

...

On Earth during the renaissance era, there would have been tons of places to place a colony that would be  isolated from the natives, to the point where it would take them days or week to reach but mere minuets for the Americans to transverse with aircraft. And this means if the colonist explored around their city, on foot or motorized, they'd be unlikely to reach a village as well.

If you read the updates it's clearly stated that there is regular contact between the US colony and the Eben.

"Relations with the Eben are generally good, although they seem disconcerted at the size of the US colony, which has reached 370,000; small in human terms but very large by the standard of Eben cities."
"An Eben delegation has contacted the leaders of the US enclave and asked why oxygen is being added to their atmosphere."


It's even likely the US colony is located near an Eben settlement since as previously pointed out oxygen based life are still likely to value the same land ( access to water and food ).

The other two big things that be easier to tell from orbit aren't happening on the planet yet. They aren't emitting any EM radiation. And when the planet is dark, their urban centers aren't lit up.

Why worry about what you can tell from orbit when there are over 300 thousand US citizens on the ground that for sure is aware of their existence. Especially in isolated fringe parts like this gossip is king and you can count on the most part civilians knowing about the fact that Eben delegations have visited their colony and the fact that the planet is being terraformed.

Military stationed there ( and thus also their families ) must know about it for sure since it doesn't make sense they don't know what their mission is.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: swarm_sadist on October 12, 2015, 12:55:50 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_city#United_States

There is precedents. Having a solar system on lockdown, with traffic monitored in and out of wormholes would make it even easier to keep a lid on things.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Hydrofoil on October 12, 2015, 02:52:53 PM
Would just like to point out that whilst im loving the series at large i do feel your sort of playing the UK a little bit wrong. Whilst im sure that if given the chance the UK would invest heavily in a colony on another world and do everything in its power to develop it. I do however feel that the British Isles and other holdings on earth would be so readily abandoned and so quickly. I realise this is probably due to the large civillian sector doing alot of the leg work. However Politics and culture in britian is steeped in alot of pride and heritage we take our history very seriously (The Good and the Bad bits). I feel like this would play a big factor in keeping britain quite rooted to Earth in terms of many industries especially the financial sector, As a bit of advise whilst moving off world id start building financial centres on Earth There is no way Westminster would ever allow its Earth Holdings to become obselete and not needed.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sematary on October 12, 2015, 04:38:57 PM
You are aware that Steve is English, yes?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: mrwigggles on October 12, 2015, 05:01:43 PM
If you read the updates it's clearly stated that there is regular contact between the US colony and the Eben.

"Relations with the Eben are generally good, although they seem disconcerted at the size of the US colony, which has reached 370,000; small in human terms but very large by the standard of Eben cities."
"An Eben delegation has contacted the leaders of the US enclave and asked why oxygen is being added to their atmosphere."


It's even likely the US colony is located near an Eben settlement since as previously pointed out oxygen based life are still likely to value the same land ( access to water and food ).

Why worry about what you can tell from orbit when there are over 300 thousand US citizens on the ground that for sure is aware of their existence. Especially in isolated fringe parts like this gossip is king and you can count on the most part civilians knowing about the fact that Eben delegations have visited their colony and the fact that the planet is being terraformed.

Military stationed there ( and thus also their families ) must know about it for sure since it doesn't make sense they don't know what their mission is.

No it doesn't. They dont need to be geographically close to remain in contact. The Americans have telecommunication. Have a radio, call us whenever. And the US can just invite some delegates over to their city. It seems for now, the US is trying to have an amicable relationship. The colonist dont need to be made aware, and the troops stationed there, dont have to know why they're there. The only folks that need to know, is the administrator for the colony and the admin for the military, which is a very small group. Are there rumors sure? But there probably rumors like that on every colony.

And most military folks don't get their families moved with them. The commanders of the base probably d, but thats probably because its a long term post, and fr the rest of the infantry, they'll be sent home in a given rotation. But even if every infantry person had their family, there no reason for them to all be fully informed. Compartmentalization is a thing.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on October 12, 2015, 07:22:57 PM
No it doesn't. They dont need to be geographically close to remain in contact. The Americans have telecommunication. Have a radio, call us whenever. And the US can just invite some delegates over to their city. It seems for now, the US is trying to have an amicable relationship.

I have to wonder at your definition of "amicable relationship."

Other than that, eh, I don't think this debate is going anywhere.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: xeryon on October 13, 2015, 07:50:29 AM
I keep having the scene from 'Men In Black' running through my head.  The one where Kay refers to getting the latest news from the hot sheets and walks over to the newsstand and picks up a pair of supermarket tabloids.

Without arguing specific facts or features of galactic communication and colonization I rationalize it as thus:  Human exploration of space has surveyed well over 100 systems and only found life in one system (that anyone at all knows about). This absence of life would give the average human a false sense of being alone in the universe.  Because there are always people that talk or spread rumors no matter how tightly controlled the information is it will leak out to the public in a short time.  In the absence of hard evidence if the general public sentiment is that there are no aliens then the people creating the rumors would be regarded as quacks and dismissed.  Their stories will be published in the National Enquirer next to the story about the 50 lbs baby and the latest celebrity couple to break up. 

Until hard evidence surfaces (which would be much harder to come by) and/or an authority claims life has been found (a government, scientific journal, etc) the general public won't accept it as real.  Even in the face of substantial hard evidence there are non-believers.  There is still a not-small number of people that think the US moon landings were faked.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on October 13, 2015, 12:28:15 PM
I keep having the scene from 'Men In Black' running through my head.  The one where Kay refers to getting the latest news from the hot sheets and walks over to the newsstand and picks up a pair of supermarket tabloids.

Without arguing specific facts or features of galactic communication and colonization I rationalize it as thus:  Human exploration of space has surveyed well over 100 systems and only found life in one system (that anyone at all knows about). This absence of life would give the average human a false sense of being alone in the universe.  Because there are always people that talk or spread rumors no matter how tightly controlled the information is it will leak out to the public in a short time.  In the absence of hard evidence if the general public sentiment is that there are no aliens then the people creating the rumors would be regarded as quacks and dismissed.  Their stories will be published in the National Enquirer next to the story about the 50 lbs baby and the latest celebrity couple to break up. 

Until hard evidence surfaces (which would be much harder to come by) and/or an authority claims life has been found (a government, scientific journal, etc) the general public won't accept it as real.  Even in the face of substantial hard evidence there are non-believers.  There is still a not-small number of people that think the US moon landings were faked.

I never thought about it that way, but it would be hilarious. Maybe there's a fringe lunacy group claiming the US is hiding evidence of extraterrestrial life, whose houses are full of bulletin boards with red string linking news articles, shipping manifests, and scientists in exotic fields like xenobiology suddenly going on "vacation". Occasionally a spacer gets drunk and claims to have really caught sight of an alien walking into a building on a minor US colony world, but everyone just dismisses them as one of the crazies, including the foreign powers  ;D
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: mrwigggles on October 13, 2015, 01:35:20 PM
I have to wonder at your definition of "amicable relationship."

Other than that, eh, I don't think this debate is going anywhere.
Having a spirit of friendliness in their relationship. The US doesnt need have a native population there.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Yonder on October 13, 2015, 02:45:49 PM
Having a spirit of friendliness in their relationship. The US doesnt need have a native population there.

Given the fact that the US is changing the atmospheric makeup of their only world with no apparent regard for the health of the native population I think it's safe to say that the US realizes that they don't need to have a native population there, which is probably why Bremen doesn't find the term "amicable" appropriate.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: xeryon on October 13, 2015, 03:27:42 PM
Disregarding the environmental fall-out which Aurora does not calculate; if changing the oxygen content in the atmosphere brings the planet into a cost 0 world and still retains a cost 0 for the native inhabitants the net result would only be negative from a role-playing standpoint.  Situation is a slight bit more genocidal if it takes the colony cost away from 0 since the inhabitants can't make infrastructure.  I'm guessing it will take them both to 0.  US gains a 0 cost world and eventually 200m(?) taxpayers and factory workers.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on October 13, 2015, 04:09:21 PM
It's not just the terraforming (though that's certainly part of it), but the reason behind the terraforming. The US wants to exploit the world, probably mostly for the mineral reserves, and I doubt every TNE on the planet is located underneath the US colony. I mean, if the richest deposit is underneath the Eben's enormous tree city, hey, I think I saw that movie a few years ago  ;D

The classical scenario is moving in, conquering the natives, and then exploiting the planet. The US seems more set on moving in, exploiting the planet, and then conquering the natives when they try to stop them, which is better only in the sense that you get to blame them for attacking you first. After all, they didn't tell the Eben about the terraforming, and they've been moving in ground forces to their colony.

Not that I'm complaining about this approach. I think it fits wonderfully with the US background in this scenario, and let's be honest, most of the nations in this game probably would have already invaded (valuable tax income/workers!). I just wouldn't use the word amicable, which according to my dictionary implies goodwill  :P
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: mrwigggles on October 14, 2015, 05:28:00 AM
The post said that the o2 change, wouldnt have any negative impact on the natives. Therefore it is not being done in disregard to the natives. If this wasn't noteworthy that it wouldnt impact the native health, then it wouldnt been mention. Bring up the native health means that it warrants attention.

There no reason for the US post to hide information from us the Readers, they're done from the US prospective, if the troopers were an invasion force, then they would have been sent as an invasion force. They were sent down there as security force, therefore they're a security force.  There no reason to go to war with the natives. They have ideas of sovereignty, and treaties.  Whatever they find valuable would be trivial for the US to procure, so they can just buy all the mining rights without it involving force. Especially since the mineral that the US are mining, have no use to the natives.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: xeryon on October 14, 2015, 07:39:02 AM
Change of topic: Either the delay in updates is a sign of a substantial new feature being added or Steve got sidetracked again.  With a game this complex I feel like it would be very hard to pick it back up after much delay.  Which would be epicly sad and depressing as this was proving to be one of the more interesting story lines hes written.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on October 14, 2015, 11:35:34 AM
The post said that the o2 change, wouldnt have any negative impact on the natives. Therefore it is not being done in disregard to the natives. If this wasn't noteworthy that it wouldnt impact the native health, then it wouldnt been mention. Bring up the native health means that it warrants attention.

There no reason for the US post to hide information from us the Readers, they're done from the US prospective, if the troopers were an invasion force, then they would have been sent as an invasion force. They were sent down there as security force, therefore they're a security force.  There no reason to go to war with the natives. They have ideas of sovereignty, and treaties.  Whatever they find valuable would be trivial for the US to procure, so they can just buy all the mining rights without it involving force. Especially since the mineral that the US are mining, have no use to the natives.

I never said the US was planning on invading. I said they're planning on taking what they want, and they have a pretty good idea the Eben are going to be against it, so they're sending in the troops so the Eben can't stop them. They're a security force, sure, but they're a security force for a burglar who's breaking into your house.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 15, 2015, 12:10:02 PM
Change of topic: Either the delay in updates is a sign of a substantial new feature being added or Steve got sidetracked again.  With a game this complex I feel like it would be very hard to pick it back up after much delay.  Which would be epicly sad and depressing as this was proving to be one of the more interesting story lines hes written.

Still playing - up to March 2107 now. Just a delay as I wait for a suitable period to pass before new updates (or a war starts :) )
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on October 15, 2015, 07:15:07 PM
Still playing - up to March 2107 now. Just a delay as I wait for a suitable period to pass before new updates (or a war starts :) )

With how much time my single player games can take up, I can only imagine what this campaign is like :)

Glad to hear you're still working at it, though; this is a really fun campaign so far.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: JacenHan on October 17, 2015, 11:50:39 AM
Exciting new developments. Stories using the disaster options are usually quite interesting.

Is there any chance of this working on stars other than Sol?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on October 17, 2015, 12:04:07 PM
I like it. It's also good justification for why the TN powers can just scoop up as many colonists as they want from unaligned nations.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on October 17, 2015, 06:07:28 PM
Oh dear, I was planning on turning earth into a snowball after a brief period of extreme heat, had no idea cooling was broken.
Still the new 2% option is more suitable for my game because 1% will take too damn long to destroy the habitability, still mars and Titan are good places for humanity to take refuge in, at least for a while.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MWadwell on October 17, 2015, 06:58:41 PM
The post said that the o2 change, wouldnt have any negative impact on the natives. Therefore it is not being done in disregard to the natives. If this wasn't noteworthy that it wouldnt impact the native health, then it wouldnt been mention. Bring up the native health means that it warrants attention.

True - but changing the atmospheric concentration without agreement from the native race is at best insensitive, and at worst shows a callous disregard for the natives.

If I was a native, I would be very concerned by this - as it shows on one hand a lack of respect/consideration for the natives, as well as a long term plan by the US (afterall, the US wouldn't be doing this unless they had long term plans for the planet).

Quote
There no reason for the US post to hide information from us the Readers, they're done from the US prospective, if the troopers were an invasion force, then they would have been sent as an invasion force. They were sent down there as security force, therefore they're a security force.  There no reason to go to war with the natives. They have ideas of sovereignty, and treaties.  Whatever they find valuable would be trivial for the US to procure, so they can just buy all the mining rights without it involving force. Especially since the mineral that the US are mining, have no use to the natives.

I both agree and disagree.

You are right, in that as readers we are made aware of things that would not be otherwise known.

I disagree with your last sentence though - that just because the natives can't mine, they have no interest in the minerals. If that were true, then property owners in our current world wouldn't be charging so much for mining rights from the mining companies. (After all, the farmers aren't interested in mining - but they are interested in the money the mining firms are willing to pay.) I would expect that the same would be true for the natives of Eben......

Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on October 17, 2015, 07:04:40 PM
I disagree with your last sentence though - that just because the natives can't mine, they have no interest in the minerals. If that were true, then property owners in our current world wouldn't be charging so much for mining rights from the mining companies. (After all, the farmers aren't interested in mining - but they are interested in the money the mining firms are willing to pay.) I would expect that the same would be true for the natives of Eben......

Even if not, the Eben have a vested interest in those minerals still being there when they discover Trans Newtonian tech in a few hundred years or so. If I invest money in a college fund for my unborn child and my banker embezzles it, it's still stealing even if I was never going to use it.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 18, 2015, 05:56:12 AM
Exciting new developments. Stories using the disaster options are usually quite interesting.

Is there any chance of this working on stars other than Sol?

Possibly - I can't remember why I restricted to Sol in the first place, although there was a probably a good reason - I'm sure it will come back to me if I look at expanding to different stars :)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 18, 2015, 06:00:23 AM
I like it. It's also good justification for why the TN powers can just scoop up as many colonists as they want from unaligned nations.

Plus, I was concerned in the long term about the UK and US having too much benefit from the neutral nations. Their major colonies are closer than other nations and so far the neutral nations have gained more population through growth than they have lost in colonists. In effect it is an endless supply of colonists so the distance to each nations major colony becomes a significant factor. I think I made the neutral pop too large, If the Earth becomes less habitable it will be fairly easy for the TN nations to protect their pops but the UN pop will shrink and fix the imbalance.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on October 18, 2015, 01:01:14 PM
So, suddenly maps. If I were inclined to excited speculation, I might predict that the Colonial Wars have begun ;D

Especially with battle groups, troop transports, and wrecks visible in both systems. I am kind of curious what's going on in Barnard's Star, though, since it's heavily settled by the UK who seemed pretty peaceful last we heard. Maybe it's just some fighting spilling into the system.

Looking forward to future updates!
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 18, 2015, 01:18:38 PM
So, suddenly maps. If I were inclined to excited speculation, I might predict that the Colonial Wars have begun ;D

Especially with battle groups, troop transports, and wrecks visible in both systems. I am kind of curious what's going on in Barnard's Star, though, since it's heavily settled by the UK who seemed pretty peaceful last we heard. Maybe it's just some fighting spilling into the system.

Looking forward to future updates!

The wrecks are old precursor wrecks. Salvage ships have been low on the priority list for most powers in the early years, although the UK has built one and other nations have salvage ships under construction or are working on the technology. Several powers now have troop transports and the number of warships is increasing. Begun the Colonial Wars have not :). However, I thought laying out the terrain would be useful as I don't think they are far away.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on October 21, 2015, 07:23:00 AM
Typical Sith behaviour. When you want a Galaxy spanning war Palpatine is nowhere to be found.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheRequimen on October 25, 2015, 10:00:19 PM
I'm guessing that Caliphate fleet is going through Commonwealth space, since I don't imagine the US would give them passage.  Kinda surprised the Commonwealth nations would let them through, though I suppose we might learn more with the UK or US update.

Also, sorta interesting the US didn't picket the EV Lacerte-Eta Cassiopeiae jump point.  Guessing it is because of fuel concerns, and or faith in the Commonwealth nations compliance.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on October 26, 2015, 05:53:58 AM
Are there are any plans to introduce Swarm, Precursors or Intruders? I recently reread NATO VS Soviet union campaign and was surprised at the amount of losses both powers suffered.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 26, 2015, 01:25:43 PM
I'm guessing that Caliphate fleet is going through Commonwealth space, since I don't imagine the US would give them passage.  Kinda surprised the Commonwealth nations would let them through, though I suppose we might learn more with the UK or US update.

Also, sorta interesting the US didn't picket the EV Lacerte-Eta Cassiopeiae jump point.  Guessing it is because of fuel concerns, and or faith in the Commonwealth nations compliance.

So far, apart from Russia, no one has claimed any region of space. In effect there is freedom of navigation throughout known space, similar to the current freedom of navigation on the seas on Earth. There are lots of different nations moving through the primary colony systems of other nations. Sometimes different nations even setup colonies on the same planets. This is true for the Commonwealth nations but also Russia / Manchuria in Tau Ceti, USA / France / Germany in WX Ursae Majoris and now US / Caliphate in Eta Cassiopeiae.

The Caliphate didn't move through US space in this instance because they don't know the route. The only connection they know of is via the Avalon Arm. The UK let them pass because the UK hasn't laid claim to anything beyond planetary surfaces and relations with the Caliphate are fine. It may be in the future if wars begin that nations might start claiming and defending different systems (or that might be why the wars begin :) )
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 26, 2015, 01:28:25 PM
Are there are any plans to introduce Swarm, Precursors or Intruders? I recently reread NATO VS Soviet union campaign and was surprised at the amount of losses both powers suffered.

Not at the moment. TN NPRs are now activated though so it's possible someone might encounter one. If not, I might just setup something nasty for the human nations to find :)

Toying with equivalents of the Kafers / Dilgar / Kilrathi / Cylons, etc. :)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheRequimen on October 26, 2015, 01:59:24 PM
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=7890. msg82207#msg82207 date=1445883943
So far, apart from Russia, no one has claimed any region of space.  In effect there is freedom of navigation throughout known space, similar to the current freedom of navigation on the seas on Earth.

Well, that clarifies things.

I certainly hope the USA has not forgotten the lessons it learned 167 years ago in December. . .
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 26, 2015, 02:13:34 PM
Well, that clarifies things.

I certainly hope the USA has not forgotten the lessons it learned 167 years ago in December. . .

Yes, I probably should make things more clearer in the reports - sometimes hard to remember what I know that the reader doesn't :)

The trick for the US (and everyone else) is to somehow guard their assets from a surprise attack when they are effectively at point blank range from a potential hostile force. It is as if the Japanese fleet was already docked in Pearl Harbour when it decided to attack. The US could move its fleet to Columbia, but they would be out of position to defend the Earth population, or they could orbit a lot further from Earth, but that would have maintenance penalties. This is why everyone is trying to get their vital assets out of Sol so they have a chance to see an attack coming. I've been glossing over this so far in the reports as the tensions haven't been high enough. I will start getting into it soon though.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on October 26, 2015, 03:03:28 PM
Given the Caliphate uses FACs, including missile FACs, the comparison is kind of striking. It's entirely possible the US' first warning will be when the missiles come screaming in; I wonder if they make a habit of leaving active sensors on. As I recall the US is working on a carrier as well; that would be an interesting game changer. Hopefully it wont be caught at harbor in orbit when the attack comes  ;D
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MWadwell on October 27, 2015, 06:26:09 AM
G'Day Steve,

With the trade treaty between Canada, Britain and Australia - why not introduce further deals?

For example, Australia is short of Gallicite, and Canada is short of fuel. Why not trade between themselves?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on October 27, 2015, 11:14:09 AM
G'Day Steve,

With the trade treaty between Canada, Britain and Australia - why not introduce further deals?

For example, Australia is short of Gallicite, and Canada is short of fuel. Why not trade between themselves?

Canada also fairly short of Gallicite :) - just not as bad as Australia. In fact, several nations are starting to have a serious Gallicite shortage. I will be looking for other trade opportunities though.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MWadwell on October 28, 2015, 01:10:11 AM
Canada also fairly short of Gallicite :) - just not as bad as Australia. In fact, several nations are starting to have a serious Gallicite shortage. I will be looking for other trade opportunities though.

Ahhh - thanks!

Perhaps those nations with a Gallicite surplus may get some sweet deals on the nations with the most desperate need.....  ;)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: BwenGun on October 28, 2015, 05:46:59 AM
I suspect it would be a pain to code, but it would be rather interesting if there was some sort of Galactic Commodities exchange, with factions able to put up portions of their stockpiles for sale (probably from a single designated location for each faction) which when bought would be transported by Civilian operated transports to your own central stockpile.  That way you'd have a way to get out of a mineral shortage and it would simulate the way that nations really do trade with one another and add another element to the roleplaying fun the game provides. 

Plus from there it would, presumably, only be a short step to add the ability to trade things like facilities and ship components.  Meaning you could start to have factions with an excess of old ship parts or missiles selling them off to less advanced neighbours.  Which would be really rather cool.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: xeryon on October 28, 2015, 08:00:03 AM
Yes, that would be really complicated. 

Much easier would direct trading option.  If you have good enough relations with an empire/race to have a trade treaty you can trade them a mineral.  For player run races this should be a very easy transfer.  The exchange can be roleplayed as a trade, bribe, reparations, or an extortion payoff. Input a quantity in each field and mineral type and hit transfer.

If the formula was tied to your relations score for NPRs it could be simulated as a commodities exchange.  Once you reach the trade treaty threshold you can 'trade' minerals to your friend at a predetermined ratio that seems appropriate. As your relations improve the ratio improves.  The minerals you give disappear and what you get is just created from nothing.  No actual trading happens with the NPR so as to not interfere with the existing minerals balance for NPRs.  Lots of ways to make it more interesting from here without skewing the game balance too much
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: alex_brunius on October 29, 2015, 10:40:09 AM
The minerals you give disappear and what you get is just created from nothing.  No actual trading happens with the NPR so as to not interfere with the existing minerals balance for NPRs.  Lots of ways to make it more interesting from here without skewing the game balance too much

I would actually be much more interested if such a trade option could be used by NPRs to acquire minerals they have in shortage without having to plan 20 years ahead with mining ops...


Also would be neat to see a Civilian market, where each empires current minerals only represent their government/military strategic reserve and the civilian market have their own share.

For example a huge 100% civilian colony on a planet devoid of TN minerals should still have significant amounts of all TN minerals in the civilian market anyways due to trade. ( evident at the very least from how they produce infrastructure "for free" currently ). For me it would be super exiting to see Civilian supply/demand mechanics where certain trade-goods are blooming on planets where the right kind of TN materials are abundantly available, and these planets attract alot of immigrants due to all the available jobs and space. Or where a planet with alot of free space and heat available can produce tradegoods like "food" and trade this with core/industrial worlds.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Mel Vixen on October 29, 2015, 08:05:52 PM
Well if a government doesnt buy the minerals of a colony the material could land on the market (for a premium). Since the CMCs are not directly empire controlled you could send your freighters/ Civilian freighter there to buy some of the material - much like civilian fuelharvesters. Tradetreaties could work well for that.

Heck maybe you could "ask" a different NPR to commision a certain piece of equipment or even ship that they then sell for riches and minerals.

Say buying Russian misseldrives by the hundreds (for a reasonable 500% markup) to euip suplement your ships with faster ASM.

You would have to ballance this with the civilisations personality. More pacifist civs wouldnt sell weapons so readely while xenophobic ones dont like trading at all. Your military strength and purchase behaviour might worsen the relations to a NPR if you buy to many weapons etc.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on October 30, 2015, 12:04:46 AM
Keeping the system simple would probably be best, maybe a civilian trade post could be setup which simply directly purchases whatever you dump there or sells whatever you pickup. You could use freighters or mass drivers.
Minerals which you allow a cmc to sell off go to a civilian stockpile where civilian freighters will use the existing trade system to send to your homeworld. There they go into a civilian trade market which can buy or sell resources at a certain quantity depending on level of commercial spaceport. Say 250 tons per year per level of spaceport. Modified by logistics rating of governor. Allow the civilians to upgrade the spaceport themself too, but at a significant expense. Then finally create a system where civ freighters will trade minerals that are most abundant in stockpile  to other empires, and alternatively purchase those that are in lower quantities. It should try to trade everything though but weighted by supply and demand. You should get income from the trade too obviously.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: hubgbf on October 30, 2015, 05:44:27 AM
Hi,

Establishing such trade mecanism will allow to introduce pirates, or privateer.

Escorting commercial shipping is a major motivation to build a big navy.
It will also introduce some small sized actions, instead of just sparse and big sized one. Pirates and privateers will also rely more on speed than fighting power, leading to more player specialized design.

Bye
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on November 01, 2015, 08:52:00 AM
I wonder, with that disaster option in place what's stopping Earth nations from deploying terraformers back on Earth to combat temperature change.

In any case nice to see Cauntauri Federation taking steps to improve their military, with Caliphate getting cold feet they might even have a chance.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: swarm_sadist on November 01, 2015, 01:10:39 PM
Is there a reason you put the Germany Update in the Starting Forces Thread?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on November 01, 2015, 03:29:22 PM
Is there a reason you put the Germany Update in the Starting Forces Thread?

LOL, because I'm an idiot? :)

Fixed now.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on November 03, 2015, 10:44:27 AM
Looks like things are about to heat up :) The Japanese seem to be on top of things, concluding that the Centauri are probably the target but taking no chances anyways. I wonder how the other nations will react to the attack; while Japan has no reason to like the Centauri they might like the idea of an aggressive Brazil neighboring them even less, or just want their own piece of the pie. Mars can't do much despite having something of an alliance with the Centauri, and the other nations following the assault force don't have much reason to care.

Brazil seems to have missed their best opportunity, when the Federation was weak due to military expansion, but probably still have a good advantage. The Centauri have 7 missile cruisers at last count, and seem unlikely to finish the two just laid down before the attack comes. Even assuming they can reload from planetary stocks, they'll probably have great difficulty penetrating the Brazilian Navy's beam based point defense; by my math, 70 24km/s missiles versus 150 gauss cannon shots with a tracking speed of 16 km/s, not to mention all the railgun fire. Unless they can stop them at the jump point or Brazil makes a major tactical blunder, I don't see it going well for them.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Garfunkel on November 03, 2015, 10:57:56 PM
Like the Sun, things are heating up!
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: mrwigggles on November 04, 2015, 06:35:31 AM
None of the nations reports have acknowledged that the sun  is heating up.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Garfunkel on November 04, 2015, 04:18:25 PM
Yes they have.

Japanese update:
Quote
The Centauri continue to send survey ships into areas that Japan regards as within its sphere of influence, their home system lies astride the primary route from Sol to Edo and the Federation home worlds would provide both resources and Japanese colony locations close to Sol. The latter benefit has assumed much greater importance since the problems with Sol became apparent in May 2107.

Australian update:
Quote
There were no suitable sites for manned mines within the Avalon Arm so the Australian prime minister contacted his British counterpart and requested that the restriction on moving Australia manned mines to Avalon be lifted. He emphasised that the matter had become more urgent due to the growing problems with Sol. It was likely that in the long-term Australia's main population centre would not be on Earth.

Argentinian update:
Quote
The current strategy continues though with Argentina concentrating on establishing small colonies far from the other powers. This may not be viable in the long-term given the increased solar output affecting Earth and Argentina may have to find a colony location closer to Sol if evacuation becomes necessary.

Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: dgibso29 on November 09, 2015, 02:46:07 PM
Checking all too often for the next updates. Very interested to see how events unfold.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on November 10, 2015, 02:59:24 PM
Badly for Manchuria almost certainly,  especially since they aren't directly involved
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sematary on November 10, 2015, 05:08:26 PM
I think we are about to see the titular wars begin. I think the main event will be US/Germany vs. the Caliphate, with pretty much everything riding on the first series of battles. Around a planet is where the Caliphate has the greatest disadvantage because the ranges involved will probably be short enough to counter the sensor mismatch the US ships have. Also if one or more carriers can be disabled or destroyed in the opening salvo so they are unable to launch their FACs that will deny the Caliphate most of their advantage. Assuming 4 of the 6 FACs in a standard Mersin class are Ashdod class FACs, taking out even a single Mersin denies 64 missiles that would either have been a massive alpha strike or a series of strikes. Going over the various speeds comparing the Caliphate and the US its going to be a slaughter. The US ships are almost as fast as the FACs of the Caliphate, and the US will have ~40% to hit chance on the FACs and a ~73% to hit chance on the carriers for their missiles. On the other hand the carriers can not hope to out run the US ships who are around 4 times faster than them and the Caliphate missiles will have a ~37% chance of hitting the US ships who can go faster than the mason cannons can track them at. It pretty much comes down to if the US can see the Caliphate's ships and shoot at them then the Caliphate has little chance against the US.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheRequimen on November 10, 2015, 06:15:04 PM
Nice to see the big OOB, going to go over my excel document.   I have been keeping track of every nations navy and population in Excel.  (except for civilian ships)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Val on November 11, 2015, 09:52:12 AM
I think it would be a great idea to put this scenario right before the war starts on the scenarios sub forum so we can play it too
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on November 11, 2015, 10:18:16 AM
I think we are about to see the titular wars begin. I think the main event will be US/Germany vs. the Caliphate, with pretty much everything riding on the first series of battles. Around a planet is where the Caliphate has the greatest disadvantage because the ranges involved will probably be short enough to counter the sensor mismatch the US ships have. Also if one or more carriers can be disabled or destroyed in the opening salvo so they are unable to launch their FACs that will deny the Caliphate most of their advantage. Assuming 4 of the 6 FACs in a standard Mersin class are Ashdod class FACs, taking out even a single Mersin denies 64 missiles that would either have been a massive alpha strike or a series of strikes. Going over the various speeds comparing the Caliphate and the US its going to be a slaughter. The US ships are almost as fast as the FACs of the Caliphate, and the US will have ~40% to hit chance on the FACs and a ~73% to hit chance on the carriers for their missiles. On the other hand the carriers can not hope to out run the US ships who are around 4 times faster than them and the Caliphate missiles will have a ~37% chance of hitting the US ships who can go faster than the mason cannons can track them at. It pretty much comes down to if the US can see the Caliphate's ships and shoot at them then the Caliphate has little chance against the US.

That's a tricky one. The Caliphate's greatest weapon is probably their long range FAC strikes, but a hundred meson armed FACs are extremely dangerous as well. Unfortunately, the FACs aren't armored; they're going to go down fast once the shooting starts.

If the US can take out some carriers before the Caliphate can launch their FACs, then the Caliphate is probably pretty screwed. If the Caliphate are quick enough to launch as soon as the US turns its actives on, then they could probably make a battle of it with the US, even stuck at point blank range. Of course, if Germany joins in then I think the Caliphate is screwed again, though this kind of asymmetrical fight is really hard to predict.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheRequimen on November 11, 2015, 04:02:59 PM
Who is Russia going to invade for fuel? :D
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on November 12, 2015, 05:21:19 PM
We officially have shots fired :)

First post for this campaign was August 10th, so that is three months before the first combat - probably a record :)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on November 12, 2015, 05:27:35 PM
Woohoo. I can't wait. My current game was inspired by your multi faction bloodbaths, but it seems that after the truce counter has run down relations are still improving, I now have trade treaties with them all and even the Islamic alliance randomly gave me some tech. On the bright side the othe factions keep throwing ships at the wormholers who should get the hint and come to earth soon.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on November 12, 2015, 05:39:57 PM
ok bettin' time!


1)  Brazil vs Centauri
2) US & Germany vs Caliphate
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Garfunkel on November 12, 2015, 05:54:22 PM
Easy. Brazil will crush Centaury and USA&GER will wipe the floor with the Caliphate.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on November 12, 2015, 06:01:17 PM
ahh but the question is (as always) who shot first!
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Erik L on November 12, 2015, 06:27:41 PM
ahh but the question is (as always) who shot first!
Han shot first.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on November 12, 2015, 06:59:48 PM
ahh, the Germans huh?


(not that I was lurking waiting for anyone to say that...)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: illrede on November 12, 2015, 10:03:14 PM
The cynic in me says that the Caliphate wrong-footed the Amero-German sneak attack with their own sneak-attack, already under way.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on November 12, 2015, 11:35:34 PM
I'm betting the caliphate shot first.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Nathan_ on November 13, 2015, 12:04:50 AM
Who's got better trained crews? obviously if the US sees all the FACs disgorge they'll start trying to shoot. On the flipside the caliphate should have the opportunity to launch their FACs before they are destroyed even with only 5 seconds warning. One side could well be a sitting duck for 5ish minutes.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sematary on November 13, 2015, 12:14:42 AM
I think the battle above Earth between US/Germany and the Caliphate will go to the US/Germany side because the Caliphate should have no warning. The ships shouldn't have to turn on actives because the planet should have them. I am less sure about that advantage on Eta Cassiopeiae-A III since Steve doesn't outright say if the US has any tracking stations there, but judging by how long it took them to discover the Caliphate survey ship I am leaning toward they don't, in which case that fight is a lot more in doubt. Of the three battles that will be the opening moves of that war Germany against Medina will be the most difficult to predict as its the only fully offensive battle done by that coalition.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: hyramgraff on November 13, 2015, 11:03:22 AM
ok bettin' time!


1)  Brazil vs Centauri
2) US & Germany vs Caliphate

I'll take a third option and vote for a newly spawned NPR shooting at a survey ship.  Maybe one of the Manchurian ships that are behind the newly claimed Russian system.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on November 13, 2015, 03:31:04 PM
I'll take a third option and vote for a newly spawned NPR shooting at a survey ship.  Maybe one of the Manchurian ships that are behind the newly claimed Russian system.

If this lead to Manchuria blaming Russia, it would basically be the plot to a sci-fi novel :p

As far as conflicts.. the only way I can see the Centauri having a chance is if the Brazilians are idiots and the Centauri min/max the Aurora rules to hell. Assuming that doesn't happen, a landslide victory in space for Brazil, but possible difficulties on the ground since they don't have missiles to nuke any Centauri ground forces. On the other hand, once they control space they can attack the Centauri worlds one by one, so eventually they'll win.

Germany/US vs the Caliphate.. in a fair fight, this might actually be pretty close. But if the US and Germany launch a surprise attack while most of the Caliphate's forces are in Earth orbit, they'll be at a huge disadvantage. Even assuming they launch all their FACs in time, they'll have lost the chance to soften up their foes with long range FAC delivered missile strikes. So my prediction: Caliphate forces get shredded, but take out most or all of US and Germany's heavy units with their meson cannons, leaving both sides severely weakened. Germany will probably be more help on the ground than in space, since neither side is likely to want to bombard the planet and troop numbers are going to count.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on November 17, 2015, 01:16:01 PM
I wonder whether we will see some kind of alliance to exploit Brasil commitment to invading Centauri alliance. If Argentina was more of a player it would be the most obvious choice now I'm not so sure.
UK maybe, Russia would fare well against Brasil fleet and could mount effective jump point duty, but doesn't have direct competition with Brasil.
Might be worth for all the Earthly possessions.

Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on November 17, 2015, 02:56:02 PM
Personally I think Argentina needs to pull something out of the hat very soon,  have you seen the size of their fuel stocks?

They either need to get an alliance going or pick a fight they can win quickly to get some of that sweet sweet sorium!
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: illrede on November 18, 2015, 06:24:20 PM
Wow but that near-Earth-orbit fight would have been something else entirely if it was at all fair, or a surprise in the other direction.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Xkill on November 18, 2015, 08:08:17 PM
"The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions." (Honorverse)

This phrase applies perfectly to the Brazilian conflict in the last update.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sematary on November 19, 2015, 01:29:40 AM
"The belief in the possibility of a short decisive war appears to be one of the most ancient and dangerous of human illusions." (Honorverse)

This phrase applies perfectly to the Brazilian conflict in the last update.
I would argue that it applies to the US/German/Caliphate conflict as well. The Caliphate could have continued the war but it would have been reduced to one fleet that had no way to refuel, resupply, or repair within a few days. Maybe not as decisive as the Brazilian conflict which saw the entire effective force of one nation destroyed in minutes as well as a crippling of the Brazilian fleet that was then faced with complete destruction 8 hours later.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on November 19, 2015, 05:36:14 AM
I wonder, is anybody exploiting research bonuses provided by alien ruins?

But even though Caliphate lost badly I would expect a huge reaction to the battle itself as everybody would have observed how ridiculously close that battle was either  by developing FACs of their own (On related note is anybody developing fighters?) or by adjusting doctrine to better counter small attack crafts.

Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on November 19, 2015, 10:50:01 AM
I wonder, is anybody exploiting research bonuses provided by alien ruins?

But even though Caliphate lost badly I would expect a huge reaction to the battle itself as everybody would have observed how ridiculously close that battle was either  by developing FACs of their own (On related note is anybody developing fighters?) or by adjusting doctrine to better counter small attack crafts.

I'm betting the next carriers we see will have armor.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Tanj on November 19, 2015, 03:00:54 PM
Indeed, plus I was a little surprised none of those FAC carriers were running a CAP (Combat Air Patrol - though Combat Space Patrol might be a better term). Might be the Caliphate need to change their tactical doctrine so they don't get caught with their pants down again :)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheRequimen on November 19, 2015, 07:35:01 PM
(On related note is anybody developing fighters?)

The USA may or may not have developed fighters, but it was supposedly building a carrier for them.

From Steve, September 18, 2015 (February 2106 ingame) , "The various powers didn't have tech but the USA is currently building its first carrier (24,000 ton Kennedy class) - they just don't have fighters yet :)"
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Maltay on November 20, 2015, 03:05:29 AM
Anyone want to try and make some future predictions?  Here is my take:

1. Germany and the U.S. maintain their mutual defense agreement.  They are wary of France and need some time to repair their militaries and integrate the Caliphate assets they captured.

2. The UK, Canada, and Australia formally merge to form the Commonwealth.

3. Brazil and Manchuria ally to secure the nascent Manchurian arm.  It becomes the Manchurian / Brazilian arm.  This secures Manchuria against Russian aggression.  This gives Brazil a new arm to explore since they got kicked out of the Commonwealth arm.  The Manchurian / Brazilian arm also intersects with the Japanese arm.  This gives Brazil future opportunities for revenge against Japan.

4. Mars maintains their agreement with the Centauri.  Mars protects the Centauri fuel harvesters in Sol.  In exchange, the Centauri allows Mars to colonize Alpha Centauri.  However, Mars will end the mutual defense agreement with the Centauri.  The Centauri lost its military and no longer has a claim to the Japanese arm.  Instead, Mars will ally with Argentina.  I suspect Argentina is the least objectionable of the Earth powers in the eyes of Mars as they likely did not participate in colonizing Mars and got to Alpha Centauri later and separate from the other Earth powers.  Argentina can move its assets to Mars where they will be strongly defended by the Martian military.  At the same time, the Argentinian military can immediately claim the Argentinian / Martian arm as everything from Wolf 358 onward.  The proximity of the Martian and Argentinian colonies in Alpha Centauri also facilitates mutual defense.

5. The Caliphate and Centauri sign an agreement.  The Caliphate needs shipyards.  The Centauri is wary of becoming a Japanese vassal and needs to rebuild its military.  In particular, the Centauri only needs a military capable of defending Alpha Centauri and that can be built quickly.  The Caliphate trades its FAC designs and technologies to the Centauri.  This allows the Centauri to quickly rebuild its military in Alpha Centauri and firmly establish its continued independence from Japan.  In exchange, the Centauri trades some of its shipyards to the Caliphate.  This allows the Caliphate to rebuild its military and also begin rebuilding its commercial fleet.

For reference, I am thinking the following for territorial claims:

1. The Commonwealth arm is everything from Barnard's Star onward.  This includes the Manchu <-> 61 Cygni and Eta Cassiopeiae <-> Lacertae jump points being off limits.

2. The Russian arm is everything from Epsilon Eridani, WISE 0254+0223 51, or EZ Aquarii onward.  This leaves their colony in Novaya Rodina in neutral space.

3. The U.S. arm is everything from DX Cancri onward.  This includes the Eta Cassiopeiae <-> EV Lacertae jump point being off limits.  This leaves their colonies in Lalande 21185 and WX Ursae Majoris in neutral space.  The U.S. shares WX Ursae Majoris with their ally Germany.

4. The German arm is everything from Medina onward.  This includes the Neu Brandenburg <-> Wolf 358 jump point being off limits.  This leaves their colony in WX Ursae Majoris in neutral space.  Germany shares WX Ursae Majoris with their ally the U.S.

5. The Japanese arm is everything from Gliese 682 onward and a colony in Alpha Centauri.  This includes the Alpha Centauri <-> Luhman 16 and Kyokai <-> Tau Ceti jump points being off limits.

6. The Centauri is Alpha Centauri with fuel harvesters in Sol under Martian protection.  The Centauri ceded colonies in Alpha Centauri to Japan, Mars, and Argentina.

7. The Caliphate is Sol.

8. Brazil is Sol.

9. Argentina is Sol with colonies in Alpha Centauri and Procyon.  Argentina probably wants to claim the Argentinian arm as everything from Wolf 358 onward.

10. Mars is Sol with a colony in Alpha Centauri.

11. Manchu is Sol with colonies in Manchu and Tau Ceti.  This includes the Manchu <-> 61 Cygni and Kyokai <-> Tau Centi jump points being off limits.  Manchu probably wants to claim the Manchu arm as everything from Tau Ceti onward.

12. France is Sol with colonies in New France and New Quebec.  France probably wants to claim the French arm as everything from GI 452.1 onward.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: QuakeIV on November 20, 2015, 12:59:01 PM
Loved reading the latest update.  Haven't had my eyes glued to something like that in a while.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Nathan_ on November 20, 2015, 01:24:02 PM
Given that other nations were willing to fight to prevent the US and Germany from getting the Caliphate's infrastructure, I'd imagine that AC can make a similar claim to mutual defense. Also we learned that teamwork was valuable, and if the Caliphate had just stuck to the original plan instead of trying for a medieval population with little in the way of immediate benefits, AC would be a joint Brazilian/Caliphate property right now. As far as a cap goes, FACs are somewhat expensive to operate and have zero maintenance. They could have, and should have had a cap at Earth, but beyond that they were toast.

I'd have to agree that a "losers alliance" is probably likely now, since conflict is ruled out unless you can win, win big, and defend yourself afterwards.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on November 20, 2015, 03:45:14 PM
Brazil and the Caliphate need to find a way out of the system. Both because of the disaster setting and mineral depletion. Unfortunately this is difficult because of all the territory claiming going on. Mars and the Centauri Federation are in less dire need, but have to know they can't stay in one system forever. Of those four, only Brazil has any military to speak of, and isn't going to be on speaking terms with the Centauri or Mars. This means a diplomatic approach is probably going to be necessary for them to find new places to expand. Additionally, the Colonial Wars proved that alliances are necessary; Brazil was the aggressor and the Caliphate were the defenders, but both lost because multiple nations moved against them. Any future wars are going to require a network of alliances to make sure that doesn't happen again in order to have any real hope of success.

The Commonwealth is in a good situation; they have their own territory, a powerful combined military, and recent tech discoveries that promise to help them secure both. If they ally with anyone, the Caliphate would be well served to pursue a relationship with them, since they have what they need (new locations to expand to, and sufficient military strength to keep away vultures while they rebuild their shipyards and military). It also works out well with the Commonwealth coming off as something of the "good guys" since the Caliphate are definitely the kicked puppies at the moment. Since the Caliphate got to recover its ground forces and troop transport, they could even work out a deal where they handle the Brazilian colonies that the Commonwealth is annexing, which would lower the Commonwealth's Badboy score if this were a Paradox game :p

I agree that Brazil and Manchuria are natural allies. Brazil needs territory, and Manchuria has territory but needs a military capable of giving Russia pause. Given how paranoid Russia tends to be, this could set up a cold war scenario, with both forces disliking the other but neither confident in their ability to wage a decisive war.

I expect Mars and the Centauri to grow closer. Mars didn't accomplish much, but they did try to stick with the Centauri even when things were bad, which will probably bring them closer together. The obvious ally for them would be Japan; Japan intervened in the conflict, and controls the rest of the Centauri arm. However, Japan's intervention was nakedly opportunistic, and I doubt they'd let the Centauri colonize their space after demanding unilateral control of it as part of their price. So I expect Centauri/Mars will have to look elsewhere.

France has lots of space, but relatively few good colony sites, so unless they're up for sharing the same worlds they might be reluctant to allow colonization in their space. Germany and the US are probably more interested in building their own alliance. The Commonwealth is already pretty large and has very little to gain from a Centauri/Mars alliance, since they'd have to split their military if they wanted to secure the Centauri system.

Russia would, oddly enough, be a great ally; they have lots of territory but limited ability to exploit it. On the other hand, Russia tends to be paranoid and xenophobic in these games; they're probably not going to be willing to share. Since Russia has no real reason to mess with anyone and no one but Manchuria has a reason to mess with Russia, I predict they may grow increasingly isolationist. Also until the Centauri can rebuild their military they have little to offer Russia as far as defense against Manchuria.

That leaves Argentina, but I'm not sure they'd move fast on this one. Argentina's space is far away from Earth and Centauri, and the resources of the Centauri system leave them in good shape for now. I'd say the Mars/Centauri alliance might start trying to work out some initial deals with Argentina, maybe a trade treaty of sorts. Meanwhile the Centauri will be rebuilding their military while trying to keep their options open.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Garfunkel on November 21, 2015, 02:34:18 PM
Great update, a riveting read!
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheRequimen on December 12, 2015, 12:44:41 AM
Just curious, are you going to continue this game with the release of 7.00?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on December 12, 2015, 07:54:38 AM
Just curious, are you going to continue this game with the release of 7.00?

Yes, the game is still continuing. It was updated as I made each change so it has been running in 7.00 for a while. Currently one year after the war. I plan to do an update soon.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on December 13, 2015, 12:16:32 PM
Man, that Pendragon screenshot is crazy. I can't imagine microing that.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: illrede on December 20, 2015, 08:18:08 PM
The Caliphate is definitely the innovative faction of the piece; bad strategic instincts though. If they had hanged together with Brazil, they wouldn't have been nuked separately.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on December 20, 2015, 11:12:28 PM
They need underground infrastructure for their asteroid colonies, dig in hard and resist everything the united states throws at them.
Why does that sound familiar?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on December 21, 2015, 05:34:05 PM
The Commonwealth is doing too well. Am I the only one kind of hoping something bad happens so they don't run away with the lead?  ;D
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MWadwell on December 21, 2015, 06:36:03 PM
The Commonwealth is doing too well. Am I the only one kind of hoping something bad happens so they don't run away with the lead?  ;D

As an Australian, my answer is "No!" ;)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on December 21, 2015, 06:48:18 PM
As an Australian, my answer is "No!" ;)

No to something bad happening, or no I'm not the only one?  ;D
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on December 21, 2015, 11:21:18 PM
Obviously those devious Canadians are planning something, us Aussies need to keep an eye on them.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Mel Vixen on December 22, 2015, 07:59:44 AM
No to something bad happening, or no I'm not the only one?  ;D

The chinese will win?

The comomwealths consolidation is a good move for them, pooled tech, minerals and ships makes them not onlöy the biggest but the most advanced powerblock in known space.

For the bad things: Well we got an galactic commonwealth now ..- this also means we get Kevin Sorbo as captain of the biggest ship and nukes that blow up stars.

(well actauly having eough firepower to vaporize a Asteroid or comet would be interresting)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on December 22, 2015, 02:40:39 PM
no, he's an American not a Canadian,  Shatner though...

I would expect them to keep the Commonwealth of Nations name,  since it's generic enough it's not going to run out of accuracy.

I would expect that a lot of the other Commonwealth countries are working behind the scenes to get them some of this tech, wealth and new land,  there are lots of Commonwealth countries with lots of people, and population growth is a handy thing
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Garfunkel on December 22, 2015, 02:51:36 PM
Well, going from 14 nations to 12 would certainly ease Steve's burden and it is a logical thing to do.

In the scenarios where Earth is doomed, I always think of those few stubborn people who either refuse to believe the scientists - "no way is the Sun getting hotter/colder!" - or refuse to leave their ancient homelands for sentimental reasons. What would it be like you're among the last ten thousand people in Australia/Canada/UK and seeing those last starships take off?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Mel Vixen on December 22, 2015, 05:32:43 PM
Like fallout when you go into the vault. Underground infrastructure is just like that i would imagine.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: ardem on December 22, 2015, 10:13:04 PM
I am Australian, and my vote would be be for the alignment of the Commonwealth, the kanucks and poms are good enough. Better then those war mongering Americans picking on the arabs again, for mineral exploits<smile>

What what about those French Canadians, won't they be a problem
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on December 23, 2015, 02:30:01 PM
I am Australian, and my vote would be be for the alignment of the Commonwealth, the kanucks and poms are good enough. Better then those war mongering Americans picking on the arabs again, for mineral exploits<smile>

What what about those French Canadians, won't they be a problem

I believe they are incapable of organising a you know what in a brewery,  they can't even organise a secession vote,   a bit like the Scots it seems...
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on December 23, 2015, 05:38:16 PM
They know how to organise a revolution though, untill it disorganised became extra revolting and then installed a new dictator.
What did we manage? A few bank robbers hiding in the bush, failed plans to blow up a train, and a bunch of pissed off miners who hoisted a flag and were beaten in half an hour.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MWadwell on December 24, 2015, 03:09:58 AM
They know how to organise a revolution though, untill it disorganised became extra revolting and then installed a new dictator.
What did we manage? A few bank robbers hiding in the bush, failed plans to blow up a train, and a bunch of pissed off miners who hoisted a flag and were beaten in half an hour.

WW 1 - With the Canadians, Australians were considered the Commonwealths elite troops.

WW 2 - In Rommel's opinion,  the best troops in the world were Kiwi's, followed in second place by Australians (he thought the Kiwi's better discipline made them better soldiers).


So, for a bunch of ex-cons and unionists, we make good soldiers....  ;D
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on December 24, 2015, 03:19:42 AM
Oh no doubt, they say that monash essentially invented modern combined arms warfare, and achieved a major swift victory during Hamel because if it. 
But I referred to australian revolutionaries. People always think of Eureka stockade as being Australia's revolutionary moment, but really it was a strike protesting poor working conditions and oppressive taxis. Whereas Ned Kelly is seen like billy the Kidd or bonny and Clyde, but was actually involved in planning coordinated armed resistance against corrupt military forces (the Victorian police. Their attempted train robbery was a total farce though.
TLDR thread derail over. 
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on December 24, 2015, 02:32:43 PM
Nothing much to say about the most recent updates, but I did want to show my appreciation for the multiple updates *and* long list of bug fixes. It seems like Steve's really been putting in the effort lately and it's been a lot of fun.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on December 24, 2015, 03:48:20 PM
Nothing much to say about the most recent updates, but I did want to show my appreciation for the multiple updates *and* long list of bug fixes. It seems like Steve's really been putting in the effort lately and it's been a lot of fun.

Thanks. This current campaign is keeping me very interested at the moment, which is probably why I have so much enthusiasm for fixing bugs :)



Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: xeryon on December 24, 2015, 09:40:16 PM
As a more recent non-player due to being busy with life I really appreciate the enthusiasm for playing out your campaign and reading the unfolding story.  It's great to come home from a rough day and be able to read a chapter on how the humans are infecting....umm... exploring space.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sematary on December 25, 2015, 04:19:18 AM
This is one of my favorite campaigns of yours Steve. I hope it continues for quite awhile.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Zincat on December 25, 2015, 08:26:32 AM
I just read through all the threads of this AAR. I love it. Makes me want to try my hand at a game like this, once 7.1 is out.....
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Ostia on December 27, 2015, 11:26:00 AM
Oh Crap. Fuel and 3 resources crunch can't be good for Germany. At least the resources are available on a mining colony.

You can do it Germany. Hang on.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on December 27, 2015, 01:05:35 PM
Quote
Russia was the main cause for concern as there was a Russian colony of twenty million in EZ Aquarii. Even so, within a few days the Russian ambassador informed Manchuria that his nation would accept the Manchurian claim.

It amuses me that Russia, often the evil faction in Steve's games, are actually coming off as so nice in this one. Not that they are nice by any means; Steve's descriptions of their motivations makes it clear that they'd gladly invade their neighbors if they thought the return was good; but simply because they made a great find while exploring and are just concentrating on exploiting it. They have no reason to attack anyone, and recognizing Manchuria's territorial claim actually helps legitimize their own, so they're just going the amiable isolationist route (France appears to be doing something similar). Since no one else knows anything about Russia's find no one has a good reason to attack them, either.

Meanwhile the nations that don't have their own hole in space to disappear into are having more trouble, and the ones that didn't find anything are plotting the best way to steal from their neighbors.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on December 27, 2015, 01:16:02 PM
I wouldn't say any of Steves nations are played as inherently evil. They are all pragmatic adherents of Realpolitik. The reason Russia (and China and Islamic alliance or any other smaller nation) comes of as ''evil'' is that they feel threatened by the big guy (which is usually some permutation of NATO or USA) and thus take more aggressive approach.

Regarding latest updates, great work. It is nice to see appliance of seldom seen genetic modification and incorporation of advanced alien weaponry in an one off super ship design. (Go Germany!)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Nathan_ on December 27, 2015, 01:37:41 PM
Quote
Steve's descriptions of their motivations makes it clear that they'd gladly invade their neighbors if they thought the return was good.
considering the recent US/German 1st strike on the caliphate that is true of everyone.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Zincat on December 27, 2015, 02:03:38 PM
Which is exactly how it works in our world, except for one thing. Aurora does not model trade and economical interdependence of the various nations. Because of that, nations A can attack nation B without direct economical consequences.

In the real world nowadays if, say, USA attacks China, there will be catastrophic economic consequences for that. That is why the developed world has been more or less at peace for decades. It's just not worth attacking a nation if that will ruin your economy and cause social problems....

But since in Aurora that's not true, it's free for all out there. Which is nice because it's a game :P
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Zincat on December 29, 2015, 10:18:28 AM
The new commonwealth is going to be a superpower in this setting. The question remains to be seen regarding what those aliens will do...

Still it's quite interesting. Realistically the big contenders for now are Russia, USA, the new Commonwealth and japan in my opinion. The others do not have the same resources, or have more problems to contend with in the short term (Germany). Of course in Aurora, a single war is all it takes to change things a lot.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sematary on December 29, 2015, 11:04:52 AM
Zincat, I agree on part of that.

Japan is certainly a force to be reckoned with as they just showed in the last war. It will be interesting to see where they go with it.

The Commonwealth is a superpower without a doubt BUT that all depends on their future relations with these new aliens. If they are friendly and can even ally with them, or the war they have is easy and over quickly as a complete victory for the Commonwealth, I imagine the Commonwealth would be pretty well unstoppable. If the war goes poorly it will sap a lot of their power, though they can pretend since they won't tell the other powers about the new aliens if anyone tries to call such a bluff the Commonwealth might collapse. The worst case scenario is if the war goes disastrously in which case they will have to call all the other powers in, or at least a few of them, and will have to give up major concessions plus whatever they lose to the new foe.

The US could really go either way in my opinion, they have carved out their section of the expanding sandbox and its just a matter of how they go on from here. The US occupies a top spot but its going to be a bit more difficult for them to expand and they alienated a good chunk of the international community in the last war.

Russia has been so quiet for so long its hard to gauge where they are, especially compared to the other powers. France has that issue too. They are both off doing their own thing in what I imagine is comfortably second tier power-wise.

If Germany can solve its problems regarding fuel, and in a few years they will at the outside, I think they are set to sit at the big boy's table that the Commonwealth, US, and Japan sit at. Its just a real question of how long will it take them and how much ground will they lose in that time.

I think the Second Colonial War will solidify the tiers of power, as it will any of the following.The minors fighting over the left over scraps and have a two tier system with France, Russia, Germany, Japan, the US, and the Commonwealth at the higher tier and everyone else at the lower one. France, Russia, Germany against each other, which will push the winner(s) into the top tier and the loser(s) into the bottom, again with a two tier structure. Or the minors against one of the larger powers which would set up a three power tier set up.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on December 29, 2015, 01:17:06 PM
The Commonwealth is doing too well. Am I the only one kind of hoping something bad happens so they don't run away with the lead?  ;D

Muwahahahaha!

I find the aliens interesting for meta reasons; IIRC the campaign was set up to have only low tech aliens until the big bad were introduced, so this might be them. Which will be interesting if so; while they're a long distance from Earth and the non-Commonwealth powers, they're also positioned to cut off some of the Commonwealth's colony worlds if they advance, which potentially sets up a much more interesting strategic situation than just smashing two fleets together.

Or maybe I'm misremembering and they'll turn out friendly. Which would mean they'll start exploring on their own and potentially contact the other nations. Either way, this campaign is getting even more exciting.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Garfunkel on December 30, 2015, 04:35:09 AM
Exciting things indeed!

Steve, I thought it's impossible to move shipping lines from one country to another? How are you going to model that in the Commonwealth unification?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on December 30, 2015, 06:12:33 AM
Interesting question. I'm assuming either a database hack or, more likely, a new SM option?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on December 30, 2015, 07:35:37 AM
Interesting question. I'm assuming either a database hack or, more likely, a new SM option?

I was going to use a database hack :) but I probably should build in the transfer code and make it available to everyone.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: IanD on December 30, 2015, 01:36:23 PM
I was going to use a database hack :) but I probably should build in the transfer code and make it available to everyone.

Yes Please!!! It was possible briefly but was soon discontinued
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: hyramgraff on December 30, 2015, 04:20:42 PM
Steve, did you intend to give the Kennedy class carrier zero flight crew berths?

I am also interested in what's going to happen with the new aliens.  I was just wondering how there had been only one new NPR spawned in over 250 new systems.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on December 30, 2015, 06:43:24 PM
Steve, did you intend to give the Kennedy class carrier zero flight crew berths?

I am also interested in what's going to happen with the new aliens.  I was just wondering how there had been only one new NPR spawned in over 250 new systems.

Fixed the Kennedy :)

I didn't turn on high tech NPRs until quite recently.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Nathan_ on December 31, 2015, 03:33:38 PM
Looks like the US and the commonwealth have managed to secure a decisive advantage in pop terms over everyone else, but how valuable is that considering the UN pop available to all? How is everyone doing on colonyship construction, and mercassium?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sheb on January 04, 2016, 12:51:33 PM
This is one of my favorite campaigns of yours Steve. I hope it continues for quite awhile.

I wonder how closely the Commonwealth will integrate, it's be fun if there was still some leftover tensions between the various parts, issues with different missile size, etc etc.

Also, are the rest of the world aware of the US invasion of the aliens?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Hydrofoil on January 13, 2016, 02:50:54 PM
Just had a thought its not got a massive bearing on the game but ive noticed that RL country flags atleast not the major ones USA, UK, Russia, China ect arnt included with the default fkags and stuff. Why is this?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sematary on January 13, 2016, 07:02:22 PM
Yes they are.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: MarcAFK on January 13, 2016, 08:37:18 PM
I think Acidweb's instal package uses the alternate flags, but included the origonals in a zip.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Person012345 on January 31, 2016, 02:09:30 AM
"The Eben are humanoid, with elongated heads protected by bony armour plate and have natural colouration similar to terrestrial Zebras."

Like a Grimm but stripey. >u>
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on January 31, 2016, 01:00:13 PM
I wonder what Brazil with their boarding party focus thought when the Caliphate launched a million ton immobile ship. My guess it involved dollar signs appearing in their eyes while little Ching Ching! sounds played.

I wonder if the Caliphate are going to be this game's China and constantly get hosed :p

Edit: Though actually now that I look at it it's surprisingly cheap, I guess due to the new structural shell option. Still a tempting target.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on February 06, 2016, 04:01:32 PM
Great update. I have one question though.
Can there even theoretically be an alien empire on par technologically to any human empires or are any possible aliens only a cannon fodder in a humanities showdown?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 07, 2016, 05:19:00 AM
Great update. I have one question though.
Can there even theoretically be an alien empire on par technologically to any human empires or are any possible aliens only a cannon fodder in a humanities showdown?

This campaign is inspired by an old RPG called 2300AD. In that game, humanity was split into many factions and ran into a powerful alien empire. Eventually they had to unite to defeat it. About three years ago (game time) I added an alien empire that is just as powerful as any current human Empire and is already in one human system, although neither side knows. However, that is not intended to be the main bad guy.

Within the next year or two of game time I will be adding a very powerful alien race. I haven't decided on the theme yet but I am leaning towards a few fictional empires for inspiration :)

1) Galactic Empire from Star Wars
2) Imperium from WH40k, although with aliens not humans.
3) Kafers from 2300AD
4) Cylons
5) Dilgar from Bablyon 5

etc.

Any other suggestions welcome. I'm not looking to build exact copies but use them as inspiration for a large, very powerful enemy.

Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Haji on February 07, 2016, 05:27:43 AM
I was thinking about making a similar campaign to this one but my current one is taking too much of my time already. In that case the big bad was to be a coalition of races who were scared as hell that humanity is taking over every other alien race seemingly for the evlulz so they banded together, their rivarilies forgotten, for the express purpose of eliminating humans as a threat. Seeing as in your campaign you already ended up with two alien empires absorbed by human nations (I think; I haven't finished reading the newest update yet, it's quite long) a coalition like that may make an interesting big bad, especially since they wouldn't be evil per se, just driven by fear of humans, which could be a little more interesting than just adding "I'm evil and I want you race" enemy.

Edit: Such a coalition could also be interesting in that since they aren't exactly evil and bend on exterminating mankind just because they feel like it, they could potentially start playing politics and involve themselves with some of the human nations.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on February 07, 2016, 06:31:52 AM

1) Galactic Empire from Star Wars
2) Imperium from WH40k, although with aliens not humans.
3) Kafers from 2300AD
4) Cylons
5) Dilgar from Bablyon 5

etc.

Any other suggestions welcome. I'm not looking to build exact copies but use them as inspiration for a large, very powerful enemy.

 Stagnating Old Empire dealing (or failing to do) with emerging Xenos threat would be pretty thematic only this time with Humans instead of Tau.

Also it could be nice to see a devious and calculating alien race exploiting its stealth capabilities (akin to Romulans) to sow chaos and discord between various human powers.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on February 07, 2016, 03:40:43 PM
This campaign is inspired by an old RPG called 2300AD. In that game, humanity was split into many factions and ran into a powerful alien empire. Eventually they had to unite to defeat it. About three years ago (game time) I added an alien empire that is just as powerful as any current human Empire and is already in one human system, although neither side knows. However, that is not intended to be the main bad guy.

Within the next year or two of game time I will be adding a very powerful alien race. I haven't decided on the theme yet but I am leaning towards a few fictional empires for inspiration :)

1) Galactic Empire from Star Wars
2) Imperium from WH40k, although with aliens not humans.
3) Kafers from 2300AD
4) Cylons
5) Dilgar from Bablyon 5

etc.

Any other suggestions welcome. I'm not looking to build exact copies but use them as inspiration for a large, very powerful enemy.

As could probably be expected my vote is for 3!

though does Aurora's NPR build sets include anything as er Sturdy as a Kafer Alpha?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 07, 2016, 06:03:01 PM
As could probably be expected my vote is for 3!

though does Aurora's NPR build sets include anything as er Sturdy as a Kafer Alpha?

I'm playing all the alien races too so that is not a problem :)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Spaceman Spiff on February 07, 2016, 07:24:45 PM
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=7890. msg86026#msg86026 date=1454843940
Any other suggestions welcome.  I'm not looking to build exact copies but use them as inspiration for a large, very powerful enemy.

Are you familiar with C.  J.  Cherryh's work? Aurora makes me think so much of some of the nail-biting ship combat in books of hers like Downbelow Station, where ships are traveling at such high speeds that sensor contact will be preceded only seconds before potential missile strikes.  Her The Chanur novels setting and Alliance-Union universe might provide some good inspiration for a powerful alien empire.       

Also, I've been really curious to know, are you familiar with the Alternity science-fiction RPG? Some of its aliens could provide good inspiration, and Aurora has made me think a lot of the free Alternity ship combat and construction compendium, Warships, which comes pretty close to what Aurora would be like as a paper-and-pencil game, I think, and also might be a tremendous source of ideas and inspiration for Aurora, in general!

Edit, links:
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on February 08, 2016, 03:16:20 PM
ok,  Now I really want you to do Kafers,  I'd love to see an Aurora version of the Kafer battlefleets.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sematary on February 08, 2016, 04:56:06 PM
My preference would be the Tau if we are going WH 40k.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 08, 2016, 06:31:00 PM
ok,  Now I really want you to do Kafers,  I'd love to see an Aurora version of the Kafer battlefleets.

What's the best source of material on Kafer warships?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: drejr on February 08, 2016, 07:59:41 PM
Online, Etranger is probably the best.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on February 08, 2016, 08:48:47 PM
Invasion is probably best canon for the Kafer Invasion fleets (there were 3),  Kafer Sourcebook has some seriously cool background info as well to help with the er mindset? half mindset? er Kaferishness.  Actually one of the secrets in the Sourcebook would work really well in an Aurora version of Kafers.  Plus they are really the implacable, almost impossible to understand foes harkening back to the Arachnoids  that you dealt with in the olden days.

as above Etranger is pretty good for everything 2300,  though not crunchy for obvious copyright reasons

pity Aurora combat isn't quite the hide and seek with Bazooka's that Star Cruiser was ;)  though it's certainly closer than anything else I've seen.


Uh oh,  my 2300 trigger has flipped,  I'm gone now!

heh  unfound warp points work as the backdoors into and out of Human/Kafer Space!

incidentally I loved what you did with the Eben,  so very much like the Eber,  even down to the colonising of their homeworld!
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Andrew on February 09, 2016, 03:43:30 AM
This
http://www.foxx-industries.com/

Has some information on two attempts to refight the kafer invasion, which is all derived from 2300ad's invasion
This web blog also has information
http://2300ad-uk.blogspot.co.uk/2014/01/space-battles-of-kafer-invasion.html

and this one has some information of post war attempts to deal with the kafers and their subject race
https://sites.google.com/site/2300adcollective2/our-company/operation-backdoor
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: hubgbf on February 09, 2016, 04:58:12 AM
Hi,

There is also the enigma aliens in the lost fleet series. They are rather xenophobic.
They use computer virus to create false ship on sensors which appear invulnerable. (It would perhaps need a refactoring of the ECM and ECCM system)
They also covertly give humanity some dangerous technology and managed to create a war between human factions. (false ruins ?)

Perhaps one or several of aurora's spoiler are proof of their past actions, killing any potential threatening race or protecting valuable worlds for future expansion.
These spoilers can also send back some form of signal to inform their pasters that there is a problem.

Thanks for this great story,
H.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: BwenGun on February 09, 2016, 07:41:58 AM
As a potential alternative, maybe a civilisation that starts off a bit more advanced than Humanity but is vastly more powerful than any single human faction in terms of population and industry.  The quirk of said civilisation would be that their initial technological renaissance came about because of ancient ruins found on their homeworld around which a minor religion had existed for millennia.  The unlocking of the ruins true secrets prompted this minor religious sect to conquer their homeworld and from there spread out into the stars.  However, due to the nature of their religion they view technological progress as something that they must seize themselves, either in the form of ruins scattered across the galaxy which they view as sacred gifts from their Gods or by the conquest of other sentient races and the seizure and re-adaptation of any technology they posses. 

The idea being that Humanity may be able to attain a technological edge, but will still have to contend with being outnumbered and once they cotton on the knowledge that every ship and colony lost represents another potential for their already mighty foe to field even deadlier ships. 
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on February 09, 2016, 11:23:35 AM
Hi,

There is also the enigma aliens in the lost fleet series. They are rather xenophobic.
They use computer virus to create false ship on sensors which appear invulnerable. (It would perhaps need a refactoring of the ECM and ECCM system)
They also covertly give humanity some dangerous technology and managed to create a war between human factions. (false ruins ?)

Perhaps one or several of aurora's spoiler are proof of their past actions, killing any potential threatening race or protecting valuable worlds for future expansion.
These spoilers can also send back some form of signal to inform their pasters that there is a problem.

Thanks for this great story,
H.

Elaborating on this, the Enigma aliens are evolved from ambush predators something like an alligator. They absolutely hate being seen (they self destruct their ships rather than allow wrecks to be examined, Humanity only learned what they look like by happening to find one partially intact body) and it was Humanity's constant curiosity that drove them to attack. They struck me as pretty interesting, and could be an inspiration for a race of aliens with stealthy ships.

Anyways, onto the campaign, wow, those were some really nice finds by Germany. Maybe the Commonwealth isn't in as dominant a position as I thought.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 09, 2016, 11:37:50 AM
As a potential alternative, maybe a civilisation that starts off a bit more advanced than Humanity but is vastly more powerful than any single human faction in terms of population and industry.  The quirk of said civilisation would be that their initial technological renaissance came about because of ancient ruins found on their homeworld around which a minor religion had existed for millennia.  The unlocking of the ruins true secrets prompted this minor religious sect to conquer their homeworld and from there spread out into the stars.  However, due to the nature of their religion they view technological progress as something that they must seize themselves, either in the form of ruins scattered across the galaxy which they view as sacred gifts from their Gods or by the conquest of other sentient races and the seizure and re-adaptation of any technology they posses. 

The idea being that Humanity may be able to attain a technological edge, but will still have to contend with being outnumbered and once they cotton on the knowledge that every ship and colony lost represents another potential for their already mighty foe to field even deadlier ships.

One of the reasons a 40K Terran Empire equivalent is appealing is that I can create a large and powerful enemy that doesn't research (although your ruins idea is a good one). So while humans may be initially outclassed, they can begin to overcome the gap. Otherwise, if I make the starting gap too large, the humans may never catch up.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 09, 2016, 11:59:53 AM
Invasion is probably best canon for the Kafer Invasion fleets (there were 3),  Kafer Sourcebook has some seriously cool background info as well to help with the er mindset? half mindset? er Kaferishness.  Actually one of the secrets in the Sourcebook would work really well in an Aurora version of Kafers.  Plus they are really the implacable, almost impossible to understand foes harkening back to the Arachnoids  that you dealt with in the olden days.

I've just downloaded Invasion and the Kafer Sourcebook from DriveThruRPG so I'll read through them.

Quote
incidentally I loved what you did with the Eben,  so very much like the Eber,  even down to the colonising of their homeworld!

Eben was actually a random name, despite the similarity :)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: BwenGun on February 09, 2016, 12:23:50 PM
One of the reasons a 40K Terran Empire equivalent is appealing is that I can create a large and powerful enemy that doesn't research (although your ruins idea is a good one). So while humans may be initially outclassed, they can begin to overcome the gap. Otherwise, if I make the starting gap too large, the humans may never catch up.

True, it's a bit of a balancing act to achieve but an interesting scenario to play out. Especially as even if Humanity can unite and throw them back internal politics will be much more interesting amongst the human races in a way that wouldn't be the case if the fight was against a foe that advanced and kept pace with humanity. After all if they don't advance, or don't advance quickly once a technological advantage of a significant amount has opened there will be room for complacency and politics to creep into decision making with the supposed victors seeking to have their own faction win the peace.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: illrede on February 09, 2016, 12:41:16 PM
It wouldn't have been even remotely cost-effective to start building Forced Labor units there, I suppose.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on February 09, 2016, 02:53:52 PM
Kafer aren't really what you'd call research giants either,  theres a fairly specific way they get pretty much all their tech advancement in the 2300 canon,  and it doesn't involve Kafer Labs!

Kafer warships are also more advanced as well as larger than any Human ones,  though they are still hidden even in GM info on their exact techs,  all I know is it's impossible to build any Kafer ship using the ship design rules in Star Cruiser (those rules are pretty much only usable for Humans)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Feralkoala on February 09, 2016, 03:18:44 PM
I would like to see a race based on the Shaa and their philosophy of the Praxis from Dread Empire's Fall
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheRequimen on February 09, 2016, 05:49:39 PM
My vote is Imperium first, Kafer second, Galactic Empire third.

Imperium-(chance of uniting humanity: high) An ancient, vast, powerful, yet stagnant and corrupt empire that seeks to totally annihilate all Xenos. A empire that has vast fleets at its disposal, with large numbers of strong warships. Some of those warships are highly advanced, beyond anything humanity has ever seen, at or beyond the limit of current theory, yet the retrograde empire is no longer able to produce, or even in some cases maintain or supply the somewhat small number of these ancient vessels. Ditto ground forces. I'm guessing the economy aspects of the empire be nominally vast, but inefficient and nearly crippled by the weight of maintaining the ever increasing burden of the empire.

Kafer- (chance of uniting humanity: high) I don't know much about the setting, but I vote for it second because it looks like it would be unique, and seems to be a fairly popular choice. Any threat that is hellbent on destroying humanity is always going to be interesting and highly entertaining.

Galactic Empire- (chance of uniting humanity: medium) I imagine they would be stronger than any single human faction, but not the whole. They would be a bit more advanced than humanity, and would have the advantage of a strong, centralized government, military, and economy. Humanity would have its hands full with this threat. I'm not sure if you would give this faction internal problems, perhaps some rebel alliance that humanity could link up with. Of course, a rebel alliance could allow for a stronger Empire, and a more interesting war. (Empire mauls humanity, takes large losses, rebellion starts, forcing the Empire to shift its focus. Humanity gets breathing space, and doubles down on defeating the Empire.)

Just some of my thoughts on what these, "endgame" threats could be.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 09, 2016, 06:00:32 PM
My vote is Imperium first, Kafer second, Galactic Empire third.

Imperium-(chance of uniting humanity: high) An ancient, vast, powerful, yet stagnant and corrupt empire that seeks to totally annihilate all Xenos. A empire that has vast fleets at its disposal, with large numbers of strong warships. Some of those warships are highly advanced, beyond anything humanity has ever seen, at or beyond the limit of current theory, yet the retrograde empire is no longer able to produce, or even in some cases maintain or supply the somewhat small number of these ancient vessels. Ditto ground forces. I'm guessing the economy aspects of the empire be nominally vast, but inefficient and nearly crippled by the weight of maintaining the ever increasing burden of the empire.

Kafer- (chance of uniting humanity: high) I don't know much about the setting, but I vote for it second because it looks like it would be unique, and seems to be a fairly popular choice. Any threat that is hellbent on destroying humanity is always going to be interesting and highly entertaining.

Galactic Empire- (chance of uniting humanity: medium) I imagine they would be stronger than any single human faction, but not the whole. They would be a bit more advanced than humanity, and would have the advantage of a strong, centralized government, military, and economy. Humanity would have its hands full with this threat. I'm not sure if you would give this faction internal problems, perhaps some rebel alliance that humanity could link up with. Of course, a rebel alliance could allow for a stronger Empire, and a more interesting war. (Empire mauls humanity, takes large losses, rebellion starts, forcing the Empire to shift its focus. Humanity gets breathing space, and doubles down on defeating the Empire.)

Just some of my thoughts on what these, "endgame" threats could be.

I am currently leaning toward a similar priority list. The Imperium would make an ideal alien menace in this setting, although I am reading the Kafer sourcebooks at the moment so still chance to change my mind :)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on February 09, 2016, 08:05:54 PM
Steve


Ylii



Interestingly TheRequimen almost everything you've written about the Imperium also applies to the Kafer,  well except the corrupt,  Kafer psychology is a bit to alien for that concept to work,  though the Kafer "Empire" IS very factionalised, (the only thing a Kafer leader trusts less than Aliens,  is another Kafer leader), which gives the same sort of effect, and Kafer are still capable of producing new, and even introducing new designs, but the procedure for that is kinda limiting,  I won't go into any further detail because if I convince Steve it would be major spoilerage!




Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: drejr on February 09, 2016, 09:37:27 PM
One of the reasons a 40K Terran Empire equivalent is appealing is that I can create a large and powerful enemy that doesn't research (although your ruins idea is a good one). So while humans may be initially outclassed, they can begin to overcome the gap. Otherwise, if I make the starting gap too large, the humans may never catch up.

This idea is also very similar to the Vilani from the Traveller Interstellar Wars era.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on February 09, 2016, 09:46:43 PM
Though by the stage the Vilani had stagnated technologically they were also not especially agressive
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on February 09, 2016, 11:42:29 PM
Imperium-(chance of uniting humanity: high) An ancient, vast, powerful, yet stagnant and corrupt empire that seeks to totally annihilate all Xenos. A empire that has vast fleets at its disposal, with large numbers of strong warships. Some of those warships are highly advanced, beyond anything humanity has ever seen, at or beyond the limit of current theory, yet the retrograde empire is no longer able to produce, or even in some cases maintain or supply the somewhat small number of these ancient vessels. Ditto ground forces. I'm guessing the economy aspects of the empire be nominally vast, but inefficient and nearly crippled by the weight of maintaining the ever increasing burden of the empire.

Actually Imperium does produce new warships. If it wasn't able to do so it would have perished long ago as its decline has been going on for thousands of years marred with constant conflict on all fronts. The problem is that knowledge to produce advanced machinery is confined to forge worlds or some hive worlds and there is almost no transfer of technology either due to envy between Tech Magos or because the act of production is more of a ritual than industrial production.

Imperium also has a kind of technological advances which is finding ruins (or STC  -standart template constructs). They are crazy about that and could be another reason for Imperium to go after Earth powers (as if they needed another one).
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Gyrfalcon on February 10, 2016, 01:37:33 AM
Oh, they most certainly do, but one of the major themes from the Warhammer40K novels is that the technological level of the Imperium isn't anywhere near what it once was. STC warships such as an Ark Mechanicus deploy weapons such as black hole generators, chrono-cannons and vortex weapons that can suck the target into the Warp so they can have happy-fun times with the daemons.

It makes the slave-labor loaded macro-cannons, energy lances and even Nova cannons seem rather... simplistic after those weapons.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: BwenGun on February 10, 2016, 03:37:53 AM
True enough, but it's often left ambiguous as to why that's the case. Part of it is due to highly localised manufacturing centres which can't or won't share that information as Jakalo said, but there are hints that another big part of it is due to Imperial Doctrine from on high and the Adeptus Mechanicus' habit of really hating to share the cool toys with the rest of the Imperium on the off chance that the Inquisition and others will take the opportunity to finally purge the Adeptus Mechanicus. Though the same can be said for the Space Marine Chapters who also tend to have a higher technological base (sometimes maintained since the Great Crusade) but tend to be conspicuously lacking when it comes to the spirit of sharing.

Of course one facet of that might not be politics so much as sheer cold blooded pragmatism. The Imperium gives the Navy and the Guard just enough tech to get the job mostly done, but never actually gives what they fully know because the chances of Guard or Navy units rebelling or becoming tainted by Chaos is always there and with more technological prowess that could make them a serious threat to the Imperium as a whole. Meaning that the Imperium really could have the capability to produce some of the older Crusade Era (and earlier) Warships but will only ever start putting them into production again over Mars if an enemy really starts pushing them back in a way that necessitates it. Which is unlikely to ever happen because the Imperium of Man is mind-bogglingly vast, able to absorb the loss of most of a sector with nothing more than some mild irritation.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: hubgbf on February 10, 2016, 05:28:30 AM
As a fan of the rigellian's diary, why not the arachnid ?

A terran exploration ship has a malfunction and crash on a planet dominated by an arachnid hive mind.
The hive mind manage to retro engineer several key technology, and start expanding furiously. They could have a very high reproduction rate, a large range of colonisable planets, and a lot of productivity bonus. While unable to research, they would be able to retro engineer any captured technology very fast. This would be an incentive for the hive mind to hunt human ships, and planets.

Humanity has to unite to find and destroy all the arachnids before it's too late, but at first each power will hesitate, or try to use this threat to gain political avantages.

The arachnid will be a new faction, but it won't be too hard to manage like a huge WH40K imperium with hundred of worlds. It will also lead to a lot of roleplaying amongst earth factions. Some faction looking for revenge could also try to show the arachnid the path to their ennemy's most valuable world. Or desesperate ones can try to lure the arachnid fleet toward one of their neighbours which is avoiding to fight the arachnids, perhaps waiting to grab some chunks of the attacked terran power?

It could also be a recurrent threat : even after the eradication of their homeworld, who knows if an arachnid colonization fleet is not looking for a new home before expanding and coming back for revenge? Who will pay for the patrol fleet ? How long ?

If you like WH40K, there is tyranids too.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: JacenHan on February 10, 2016, 08:06:01 PM
Stargate has a lot of aliens to draw inspiration from. The Ori or Goa'uld would probably be best, given that both the Wraith and the Replicators aren't really supported very well by Aurora's system.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Felixg on February 11, 2016, 07:03:08 AM
I am curious why the nations suffering fuel shortages aren't trading some of their excess resources for fuel to keep themselves from stalling out?

I would think as well that someone like the Centauri and/or Mars would work out such a deal to move closer to Manchu for example to better check future Japanese aggression
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Jakalo on February 14, 2016, 08:18:11 AM
I just want to see the all forgotten Russians to turn up at some time and destroy some poor schmuck with one salvo.

The way things are going on now I wouldn't be surprised to see the Brasil exploit the Second Alpha Centauri war either by attacking one of their premeditated targets or joining in on the Japanese gangbang.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Bremen on February 14, 2016, 07:08:27 PM
Is the new alien race's flag a smiley face? Because that's what I see when I look at it  ;D

The new update format sounds fine; I look forward to seeing where things go from here. I can't even begin to imagine how big this game is getting at this point!
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on February 17, 2016, 06:14:51 AM
would love to see aliens with a legit Casus Belli against humanity. Perhaps invasion by one of the human factions that doesnt realize how powerful the aliens are, perhaps Opium Wars-ish purveyance of a drug or trade good viewed as societally toxic.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: mrwigggles on February 17, 2016, 07:12:04 AM
There isn't really a 'real' CB for space 4x games, besides idealogical. There isn't any issue with maps, so there no border tensions. Its cheaper to just find other places with resources then to try and militarily take it.  Without the first two, you won't have a diplomatic reasons to go to war, through obligation. Even Ideological is hard to deal with, as meme to how I understand, try to propagate itself with the least amount of cost. And interstellar war is super duper expensive. Easier to colonized uncontested worlds and have the newly born population accept the meme.


As the solarian powers move away from Earth, they too are losing reasons to really go to war. Its cheaper to expand away from each other then to attack each other.

Look at the Caphilate, if they didnt decide to try and contest the Ebens from the US, they would be in an infinite stronger position then they are now, and will be more then likely forever weaker then the other solarian powers. Even if they combine with Martian Union, they're still going to be the runt.

If the game wasn't being played to help ensure conflict, the solorian powers would be better off long term, ignoring the industrialize base left on earth, making a new industrial base with new stuff. Leave earth, negate it as a security risk, negate the tension.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: xeryon on February 17, 2016, 07:33:20 AM
Ahh...yes, but...  There's always a but.

Humans are not all rational thinkers.  Bias, prejudice, discrimination, heritage, emotion and many other purely internal inputs go into the decision making process.  The same rationalization could be applied to our modern world as well and look at what we have now.  :(  The irrational decision making of human actors is what makes almost every story arc interesting. 
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Nyvis on February 17, 2016, 08:58:48 AM
Quote from: mrwigggles link=topic=7890. msg86696#msg86696 date=1455714724
. . .

Short term, you're definitely right.  But as time passes, distance between the core parts of a nation and resources will increase, and expanding in only one direction will make for complicated logistics, when opening a way through another nation could make for a more compact empire.  There is also cases where war is pretty much needed for expansion because you're surrounded.  Population is also a resource which is easier to obtain through conquest.  If you wanted to increase the rate of conflict, creating more connections between existing systems rather than expanding space would be helpful.

As for the aliens, I'd be happy to see the game keep going as it has, rather than being centred around one big threat.  I've always disliked this trope in fiction.  I feel it's too limiting.  The interactions between the empires have been interesting so far. 
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TMaekler on February 17, 2016, 10:06:11 AM
Just a technical question: reading through the first chapters of this story and was wondering what those UK mobile jump gates are? Just simple jump ships large enough for any kind of ship to jump them? Or is there something I yet do not know about Aurora?  :D
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on February 17, 2016, 10:09:26 AM
I don't think I've seen the design anywhere, but the UK's starting OOB indicates that it's an 80,000 ton commercial design consisting primarily of a large jump drive and 2 cargo holds to fill out the tonnage (as well as a tiny # of engines).

Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TMaekler on February 17, 2016, 10:11:32 AM
No haven't seen any design specs, too.  8)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 17, 2016, 11:50:33 AM
River class Mobile Jump Gate    80,000 tons     160 Crew     962.6 BP      TCS 1600  TH 600  EM 0
375 km/s    JR 2-25(C)     Armour 1-165     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/6/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 0
MSP 8    Max Repair 218 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 2   
Cargo 50000   

JC80K Commercial Jump Drive     Max Ship Size 80500 tons    Distance 25k km     Squadron Size 2
Rolls-Royce Commercial Ion Drive (2)    Power 300    Fuel Use 6.19%    Signature 300    Exp 5%
Fuel Capacity 2,000,000 Litres    Range 72.7 billion km   (2243 days at full power)

Navigation Sensor (1)     GPS 1920     Range 10.5m km    Resolution 120
EM Detection Sensor (1)     Sensitivity 6     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  6m km
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Nyvis on February 17, 2016, 04:24:25 PM
Why is it necessary to add cargo holds? Can't you put a jumpdrive with a max size larger than the ship and use it this way? Or do you need the ship to be as big as what he ferries through?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: QuakeIV on February 17, 2016, 04:35:09 PM
You need that, yeah.  Much to my irritation when I made a formation leader that was too small but had an otherwise adequate jump drive.

e:  Guy below me phrased it better.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Cassaralla on February 17, 2016, 04:50:32 PM
Why is it necessary to add cargo holds? Can't you put a jumpdrive with a max size larger than the ship and use it this way? Or do you need the ship to be as big as what he ferries through?

Yes, the size of ship it can jump is the lower of jumpdrive rating and jumpship tonnage.  ie a 20k tonne jumpship with a 50k tonne jumpdrive can still only jump 20k ships.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Haji on February 17, 2016, 05:49:05 PM
I'm sorry to see you change formats. I know why you're doing it but I have to admit I loved how the nation-by-nation report gave every single player a spotlight, even if it was just a glorified way of saying 'nothing to see here, move along'. Than again I'm mostly a builder when it comes to strategy games so for me seeing those simple struggles of small powers to stay relevant was as satisfying, if not more so, than reading about battles.
Thank you for the ongoing reports and I hope you have enough fun with this campaign to continue it for a long time to come, as it's quite a good one.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Person012345 on February 17, 2016, 06:42:30 PM
Quote
This is probably a good place to change as by now, to use Churchill's phrase, we have reached the "End of the Beginning".

plzno, I am triggered.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: mrwigggles on February 17, 2016, 07:20:34 PM
Ahh...yes, but...  There's always a but.

Humans are not all rational thinkers.  Bias, prejudice, discrimination, heritage, emotion and many other purely internal inputs go into the decision making process.  The same rationalization could be applied to our modern world as well and look at what we have now.  :(  The irrational decision making of human actors is what makes almost every story arc interesting.
The world is growing more open, more transparent, tolerant, less dpangerious, the standard of living is on the rise everywhere and has been for a long time, and for at least industrialized countries, all crimes have been going down since the 80s. Your access to bad things happening, isn't the same as more bad things happening.

Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Sheb on February 18, 2016, 04:04:11 AM
MrWiggles, don't argue with real-life data about what is happening in a fantasy timeline.

Also, how come no one is pumping anti-greenhouse gas on Earth?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Felixg on February 18, 2016, 05:27:02 AM
I am guessing because no one wants to use their much needed terraformers on something that would benefit others. If I were the caliphate though I would be sweating bullets and trading for someones terraformer to come to the rescue xD
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: 83athom on February 18, 2016, 07:11:39 AM
The world is growing more open, more transparent, tolerant, less dpangerious
Would you like me to provide examples that go against what you say?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Nyvis on February 18, 2016, 10:32:46 AM
Quote from: 83athom link=topic=7890. msg86780#msg86780 date=1455801099
Would you like me to provide examples that go against what you say?

You could, but it would be missing the point.  The world is statistically growing the way he hints at.  But since we tend to notice the things going badly more than the ones going well, we do not perceive it this way.

Quote from: Sheb link=topic=7890. msg86776#msg86776 date=1455789851
MrWiggles, don't argue with real-life data about what is happening in a fantasy timeline.

This is one of the worst fallacies in writing fiction.  The world still works similarly and is modelled around Earth.  Taking real life data with a pinch of salt, sure.  Throwing them out just because you're writing fiction is ridiculous though.  Especially when writing fiction taking root in our own world or an alternate/future version of it.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 18, 2016, 11:45:31 AM
I'm sorry to see you change formats. I know why you're doing it but I have to admit I loved how the nation-by-nation report gave every single player a spotlight, even if it was just a glorified way of saying 'nothing to see here, move along'. Than again I'm mostly a builder when it comes to strategy games so for me seeing those simple struggles of small powers to stay relevant was as satisfying, if not more so, than reading about battles.
Thank you for the ongoing reports and I hope you have enough fun with this campaign to continue it for a long time to come, as it's quite a good one.

I'll still try to put in national-related reports regarding the economy, etc.. It was just getting more complex to keep everything separate. For example, in the last set of reports I reversed the order of the Commonwealth and Centauri reports from the normal alphabetical because the Centauri received ships built by an alien race the Commonwealth had defeated. I couldn't report the former without spoiling the latter.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: formicae on February 19, 2016, 05:52:21 PM
The countries with logistics problems, how much have they been able to contract with civilians to help with that?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 20, 2016, 03:38:22 AM
The countries with logistics problems, how much have they been able to contract with civilians to help with that?

Russia and Japan are both using civilians to move things around at the moment.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Felixg on February 20, 2016, 07:13:09 AM
Russia and Japan are both using civilians to move things around at the moment.

Any reason those with fuel shortages arent trading minerals and wealth for fuel?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on February 20, 2016, 07:26:24 AM
/imagines military press conference

"Our ships arn't laid up for lack of fuel!  They're engaged in, ahem, military exercises. We are unquestionably strong and secure in every way.  Next question."
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Nyvis on February 20, 2016, 07:49:05 AM
Quote from: TheDeadlyShoe link=topic=7890. msg86905#msg86905 date=1455974784
/imagines military press conference

"Our ships arn't laid up for lack of fuel!  They're engaged in, ahem, military exercises.  We are unquestionably strong and secure in every way.   Next question. "

They could just say they're buying for their state commercial shipping rather than for the military arm.  Or say they have a strategic stockpile but do not want to expand it outside emergency.  Or just buy from a nation they're friendly with.  There is some wiggle room.

Of course, people may choose not to sell.  But having the opportunity for a expansion-locked nation to turn towards fuel extraction and sale (or wealth trading) to compensate for resources they can't have would be interesting.  We could imagine having long term exchange treaties rather than punctual trade.  The caliphate may be interested in reconverting!
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 21, 2016, 06:51:42 AM
Any reason those with fuel shortages arent trading minerals and wealth for fuel?

There is some trading going on, although not specifically for fuel. The main problem is that the nations with a fuel shortage need to trade something the other side wants and they need to trade with someone who isn't happy to see them struggling. Those factors can make it difficult to find a deal.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Spaceman Spiff on February 29, 2016, 08:33:19 PM
I'm dying! When is there going to be another national update post? ^^ :-*
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on March 01, 2016, 12:24:50 PM
I've got a little distracted by two things.

1) Adding a major alien empire called The Imperium. Example ship spoilered below:

Lunar class Cruiser    32,000 tons     966 Crew     7641.68 BP      TCS 640  TH 4000  EM 2700
6250 km/s     Armour 8-89     Shields 90-300     Sensors 22/28/0/0     Damage Control Rating 21     PPV 193.12
Maint Life 2.04 Years     MSP 3134    AFR 390%    IFR 5.4%    1YR 1009    5YR 15135    Max Repair 500 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 12 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 792   

Vulkan-Gavinus VG-1000 Internal Fusion Drive (4)    Power 1000    Fuel Use 25%    Signature 1000    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1,030,000 Litres    Range 23.2 billion km   (42 days at full power)
Void Shields (30)   Total Fuel Cost  450 Litres per hour  (10,800 per day)

Particle Lance (4)    Range 320,000km     TS: 6250 km/s     Power 55-5    ROF 55        18 18 18 18 18 18 18 18 18 18
Defence Turret (2x8)    Range 40,000km     TS: 25000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 4    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
25cm Weapon Battery (2x4)    Range 250,000km     TS: 6250 km/s     Power 15-5     RM 5    ROF 15        5 5 5 5 5 4 3 3 2 2
Defence Turret Fire Control (1)    Max Range: 96,000 km   TS: 25000 km/s     90 79 69 58 48 38 27 17 6 0
Energy Weapon Fire Control (2)    Max Range: 384,000 km   TS: 6250 km/s     97 95 92 90 87 84 82 79 77 74
Fusion Reactor (4)     Total Power Output 32    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Torpedo Launcher (6)    Missile Size 12    Rate of Fire 75
Torpedo Fire Control (1)     Range 128.8m km    Resolution 120
Vortex Torpedo (18)  Speed: 50,000 km/s   End: 22.7m    Range: 68m km   WH: 36    Size: 12    TH: 166/100/50
Maelstrom Torpedo  (30)  Speed: 70,000 km/s   End: 12.7m    Range: 53.3m km   WH: 24    Size: 12    TH: 233/140/70
Tempest MWH Torpedo (18)  Speed: 7,500 km/s   End: 103.4m    Range: 58.5m km   WH: 0    Size: 12    TH: 25/15/7

Torpedo Detection Augur Array (1)     GPS 28     Range 3.9m km    MCR 427k km    Resolution 1
Cruiser Active Augur Array (1)     GPS 20160     Range 257.6m km    Resolution 120
Thermal Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 22     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  22m km
Electromagnetic Augur Array (1)     Sensitivity 28     Detect Sig Strength 1000:  28m km

ECCM-2 (1)         ECM 20


2) I finally started C# Aurora :). This is a very long-term project but it occurred to me that rather than reading while the turns were processing, I could be programming. The problem has always been that I didn't think I could maintain enthusiasm for such a large project, especially when I could be playing or working on VB6 Aurora instead. However, doing it this way allows me to rewrite in C# without actually giving up playing time. The downside is that is will take a long time and I might never get there :) but at least I finally started.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: QuakeIV on March 01, 2016, 12:53:23 PM
Awesome.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Felixg on March 01, 2016, 09:04:55 PM
Awesome to hear! I hope the C programming goes well!
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: bean on March 02, 2016, 12:23:44 PM
2) I finally started C# Aurora :). This is a very long-term project but it occurred to me that rather than reading while the turns were processing, I could be programming. The problem has always been that I didn't think I could maintain enthusiasm for such a large project, especially when I could be playing or working on VB6 Aurora instead. However, doing it this way allows me to rewrite in C# without actually giving up playing time. The downside is that is will take a long time and I might never get there :) but at least I finally started.
Bad Steve!  Please be distracted by getting 7.2 out instead.  I'm enjoying the campaign, but I have a really good idea lined up and ready to go when 7.2 arrives.  (I have no opinion on the programming aspects.)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: QuakeIV on March 02, 2016, 12:25:03 PM
Pretty sure he is testing presently, so to some extent he seems to be doing so.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TheDeadlyShoe on March 02, 2016, 12:26:34 PM
don't be a nagger guys  8)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Haji on March 02, 2016, 01:35:43 PM
don't be a nagger guys  8)

This. I'd also like to point out that in order to release 7.2 he needs to test the changes, which he's doing by playing the current campaign. Ergo there is nothing he can do to speed up the process and the C# programming should not take away from it, as he'll be practicing while playing the campaign.
And again, don't be a nagger.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: bean on March 02, 2016, 02:31:17 PM
That was meant to be in jest, but re-reading my comment and the responses, it looks like it wasn't take that way.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: boggo2300 on March 02, 2016, 02:40:54 PM
you guys are looking at it backwards.  7.2 like all new versions is a PRODUCT of Steve's campaign, his campaign isn't a test of 7.2
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: schroeam on March 02, 2016, 06:58:22 PM
Looking back at the 10 years Aurora has been going, the game today, while reminiscent of the original, is vastly superior in every way.  Whatever Steve does with the C# version will more than likely blow our minds further because it won't just be an improvement here or there, but he will be able to streamline areas of the current version of Aurora that he has been hesitant to do because of the effort to reward ratio being too low.  I'm excited by both 7.2 coming out in the near (relatively speaking) term and what we eventually see from C#.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Spaceman Spiff on March 02, 2016, 10:30:08 PM
Quote from: Steve Walmsley link=topic=7890. msg87492#msg87492 date=1456856690
2) I finally started C# Aurora :).  This is a very long-term project but it occurred to me that rather than reading while the turns were processing, I could be programming.  The problem has always been that I didn't think I could maintain enthusiasm for such a large project, especially when I could be playing or working on VB6 Aurora instead.  However, doing it this way allows me to rewrite in C# without actually giving up playing time.  The downside is that is will take a long time and I might never get there :) but at least I finally started.
That's suuuuuuper exciting news! :D
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: chrislocke2000 on March 03, 2016, 01:58:07 AM
That is awesome news. So the big question: is that going to be C# Aurora or C# Newtonian Aurora? (Fingers crossed for the second!)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Person012345 on March 03, 2016, 02:12:44 AM
you guys are looking at it backwards.  7.2 like all new versions is a PRODUCT of Steve's campaign, his campaign isn't a test of 7.2
Half and half as I understand it. From what I gather steve starts these campaigns mainly to test new features he's adding (and presumably also for fun) but then as he plays he finds new features he could add.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on March 03, 2016, 12:00:30 PM
That is awesome news. So the big question: is that going to be C# Aurora or C# Newtonian Aurora? (Fingers crossed for the second!)

It is a recreation of current Aurora, although as I am starting from scratch I can do things in a much more efficient way (everything is loaded into memory at start-up) and make some fundamental changes (such as removing the need for populations to be based at system bodies) to make further expansion easier. The windows should be cleaner but similar in function and general functionality will be very similar to normal Aurora.

Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Neophyte on March 03, 2016, 12:51:30 PM
Great news! 

I'm not a programmer or familiar with what a C# change will allow, so if somebody could explain it that'd be great.   Will it be able to use multiple cores?  64bit integers?  Resizable windows for tiny screens?  Mobile compatible?  Do my taxes and paint my house?

Thanks for your game and your time, Steve!
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on March 03, 2016, 12:53:59 PM
Great news! 

I'm not a programmer or familiar with what a C# change will allow, so if somebody could explain it that'd be great.   Will it be able to use multiple cores?  64bit integers?  Resizable windows for tiny screens?  Mobile compatible?  Do my taxes and paint my house?

Thanks for your game and your time, Steve!

It won't be available for mobile or tiny screens :). It should be more flexible than current because you can set up controls to order themselves to the available space. I haven't given much thought to resolution yet though - still very early stages.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Grunden on March 03, 2016, 01:05:33 PM
WPF or Winforms?
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on March 03, 2016, 01:27:47 PM
WPF or Winforms?

Tempted by WPF as it is more flexible and I have used it a little in the past. However, as this is more of rewrite than a completely new version, Winforms is a lot easier.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Zincat on March 04, 2016, 06:01:51 AM
This is really really really great news. No matter how long term it is.

Thank you :)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TMaekler on April 24, 2016, 03:03:48 PM
Will you continue this campaign in C# Aurora? Would love to hear more of this fiction ;-)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on April 26, 2016, 11:43:11 AM
Will you continue this campaign in C# Aurora? Would love to hear more of this fiction ;-)

I plan to continue it, although it will probably be a few months now. I am building the C# application using the database from this campaign.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: awesomesauce478 on February 10, 2019, 09:11:54 PM
Hey Steve,

I have returned to reading this fiction after awhile and am curious if you plan on continuing this campaign in C#? This is by far my favorite campaign of yours, it is truly a masterpiece. 
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: The Forbidden on February 11, 2019, 01:16:23 AM
Hey Steve,

I have returned to reading this fiction after awhile and am curious if you plan on continuing this campaign in C#? This is by far my favorite campaign of yours, it is truly a masterpiece.

I think he used that campaign to develop C#, if I remember well some of the sensor and combat demonstration screenshots showed Japanese and Centauri ships shooting at each other. Also given the numbers he gave there's a high probability he tested the new civilian shipping pathfinding and performance with that campaign as well.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on February 11, 2019, 03:34:50 AM
Hey Steve,

I have returned to reading this fiction after awhile and am curious if you plan on continuing this campaign in C#? This is by far my favorite campaign of yours, it is truly a masterpiece.

No, I won't continue this now, although I intend to create something similar in C# in the future.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Xkill on September 27, 2022, 03:07:19 PM
Read this one again after a long ass time and forgetting half the events that transpired.

My god, what a masterpiece! By far your best write-up! The Nato vs Soviets one comes somewhat close, but the sheer scale of this game has no precedent, and sadly, no successor. I know 'tis been a long time and this game was probably becoming almost unmanageable, but - acknowledging your last statement on the subject - is doing something like this with C# interesting to you? Please? Pretty please?  :)
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: Steve Walmsley on September 27, 2022, 06:46:08 PM
Read this one again after a long ass time and forgetting half the events that transpired.

My god, what a masterpiece! By far your best write-up! The Nato vs Soviets one comes somewhat close, but the sheer scale of this game has no precedent, and sadly, no successor. I know 'tis been a long time and this game was probably becoming almost unmanageable, but - acknowledging your last statement on the subject - is doing something like this with C# interesting to you? Please? Pretty please?  :)

Not yet. C# seems to have a lot more setup involved than VB6, because there are more elements to it, so I am starting to work on making startup easier. Once I make some progress in that area, I will return to the multi-faction games.
Title: Re: National Updates Comment Thread
Post by: TallTroll on October 02, 2022, 04:04:24 PM
Still too hard to completely bone the Chinese, huh? It's OK, Steve, we can wait until you have NPR enslavement of player races set up right