Author Topic: Mines and Minefields  (Read 10800 times)

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Offline liveware (OP)

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #45 on: May 18, 2020, 05:20:57 PM »
Code: [Select]
Palantir Sensor Buoy
Missile Size: 2.000 MSP  (5.0000 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 0 km/s     Fuel: 1,055     Flight Time: 1 seconds     Range: 0 km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.2   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 8
Resolution: 100    Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 3,312,464 km
Thermal Sensor Strength: 0.1    Detect Sig Strength 1000:  2,500,000 km
EM Sensor Strength: 0.1    Detect Sig Strength 1000:  2,500,000 km
Geo Sensor Strength: 0.01     Geo Points Per Day: 0.24
ECM Modifier: 10%     
Cost Per Missile: 1.156     Development Cost: 116
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 0%   3k km/s 0%   5k km/s 0%   10k km/s 0%

Materials Required
Corbomite  0.5
Boronide  0.246
Uridium  0.41
Fuel:  1055

This design works as expected. When deployed at a waypoint, it sits there and does nothing except provide sensor coverage.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 11:42:48 PM by liveware »
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Offline consiefe

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #46 on: May 18, 2020, 05:27:08 PM »
It's very interesting. I didn't come across any information about active sensors need fuel. Why actual mines are not dedecting though?
 

Offline liveware (OP)

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #47 on: May 18, 2020, 05:57:24 PM »
I'm clueless.

I've deployed perhaps 100 mines of the various designs described in this thread. None of them are visible in my current campaign.

At various times I have been able to see evidence of some of the Vengeance IIB design mines posted to this thread, however they are gone now. Perhaps they ran out of fuel? I'm not sure and continue to test my designs.
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Offline DFNewb

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #48 on: May 18, 2020, 07:47:15 PM »
Have you tried using really weak and slow size 0.01 engines or something?
 

Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #49 on: May 18, 2020, 09:16:23 PM »
It's very interesting. I didn't come across any information about active sensors need fuel. Why actual mines are not dedecting though?

Active sensors don't need fuel. For the specific part of the mine, you need to flag no engine in missile design so that you would have constructed a buoy. On top of the buoy as second or third stage your will have you actual missile (mine)

If I read properly what is happening is this:

1st stage buoy (no engine no fuel only sensor)
2nd stage engine and fuel to reach the target plus active to get direction (here the tricky part, the missile will engage at a certain range only which you will set in the separation range box as the ships are passing through you don't want too close or too far)
3rd stage engine fuel active and warhead to obliterate (again with separation range to keep in mind)

Looks like the above works fine however, any different designed I tried doesn't work. Example:

1st stage long-range missile to waypoint for deployment
2nd stage buoy
3rd stage missile

Looks like the above is recognized as cheating design and intentionally not working. So you will be able to launch the missile, reach the waypoint (out of your MFC) and use the sensor. Once a target is in range the missile will fire but will remain static on the waypoint either it's still there or it has been removed from the tactical map. I have figured that as it recognizes the launch of a missile which will have to be then operated by an MFC the missile simply does not know where to go.  To get this design to work you need the buoy to be launched as intended then you will have to use the buoy sensor to fire at target which has to be still under your MFC. Pointless pretty much, at that stage better have a ship or a fleet all equipped properly.

My guess is that the code recognized a "mine" only under the "launch ready ordnance" command but not if you fire the missile. I know it's weird but I spent a day to test this for another post where somebody wanted  to use a very long-range missile.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 09:23:44 PM by froggiest1982 »
 
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Offline consiefe

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2020, 09:41:21 PM »
Then my thought on two stage would be more reliable with mines seems true.
 

Offline liveware (OP)

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #51 on: May 18, 2020, 09:50:53 PM »
Looks like the above is recognized as cheating design and intentionally not working. So you will be able to launch the missile, reach the waypoint (out of your MFC) and use the sensor. Once a target is in range the missile will fire but will remain static on the waypoint either it's still there or it has been removed from the tactical map. I have figured that as it recognizes the launch of a missile which will have to be then operated by an MFC the missile simply does not know where to go.  To get this design to work you need the buoy to be launched as intended then you will have to use the buoy sensor to fire at target which has to be still under your MFC. Pointless pretty much, at that stage better have a ship or a fleet all equipped properly.

My guess is that the code recognized a "mine" only under the "launch ready ordnance" command but not if you fire the missile. I know it's weird but I spent a day to test this for another post where somebody wanted  to use a very long-range missile.

This I think is what is happening. It is impossible for a 'mine' to function correctly unless a missile fire control is in range. Since it is impossible to build a MFC into a missile, it is impossible for a true 'stand-alone' mine to function as expected. So mines appear to require a dedicated mine tender which maintains an active MFC presence.

IMO it should be possible to design 'trap' missiles or mines, so this is arguably a bug? I would be happy to have someone correct me.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 11:44:51 PM by liveware »
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Offline Conscript Gary

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #52 on: May 19, 2020, 12:32:46 AM »
As far as I can tell independent targeting from missiles (including buoys, which is what a mine is) with their own sensors is currently bugged. Frustratingly I won't have access to my Aurora-capable device for a short while to properly report it.

Missile sensors/reactors do not require fuel.
The expected behavior is that a buoy, with no engines, will persist in space indefinitely. When a neutral or hostile contact is detected by any of its onboard sensors within the separation range of its subsequent stage, it should launch said stage. That stage would then use its own sensors to acquire a target, and attack it.

Currently something is frakky in the 'picking a target based on its own sensor detection' code, and possibly also in the logic of what missiles should be culled after a while and which should be allowed to linger in space.
 

Offline liveware (OP)

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #53 on: May 19, 2020, 12:03:02 PM »
So it does appear that fuel-less sensor buoys work correctly. Attached is a screenshot of two different sensor buoy designs I tested. The original Palantir design has fuel, and the Palantir II does not. Both seem to work.
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Offline liveware (OP)

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #54 on: May 19, 2020, 12:17:05 PM »
After attempting to adapt my successful sensor buoy as a first stage for a mine, I can confirm that the mine concept still does not work. With or without fuel.

Unfortunate. I guess I will need to go on the offensive.

FWIW, here is the final mine design I attempted:

Code: [Select]
Missile Size: 30.00 MSP  (75.000 Tons)     Warhead: 0    Radiation Damage: 0    Manoeuvre Rating: 10
Speed: 0 km/s     Fuel: 925     1st Stage Flight Time: 1 seconds    1st Stage Range: 0k km
2nd Stage Flight Time: 5 minutes    2nd Stage Range: 3.99m km
3rd Stage Flight Time: 1 seconds    3rd Stage Range: 20k km
Active Sensor Strength: 0.2   EM Sensitivity Modifier: 8
Resolution: 100    Maximum Range vs 5000 ton object (or larger): 3,312,464 km
Cost Per Missile: 34.52     Development Cost: 3,452
Second Stage: Archimedes IIC Anti-Ship Missile x1
Second Stage Separation Range: 3,300,000 km
Chance to Hit: 1k km/s 0%   3k km/s 0%   5k km/s 0%   10k km/s 0%

Materials Required
Corbomite  1
Tritanium  5
Boronide  0.36
Uridium  0.6
Gallicite  27.56
Fuel:  925
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Offline consiefe

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #55 on: May 19, 2020, 12:18:34 PM »
After attempting to adapt my successful sensor buoy as a first stage for a mine, I can confirm that the mine concept still does not work. With or without fuel.

Unfortunate. I guess I will need to go on the offensive.

Did you try 2 stage simple design as well?
 

Offline liveware (OP)

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #56 on: May 19, 2020, 12:53:19 PM »
Not as a mine...

When I started this adventure my engine tech was terrible so I required at least a 2 stage missile to have any hope of hitting a target. So a mine would have needed to be 3 stages minimum.

Now my engine tech is much better, but my need for mines has decreased, so I will probably now just build missiles instead. The 2 stage missile I have been using as the basis for my mine design is somewhat useful on its own, but still needs a lot more R&D to really shine.
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Offline liveware (OP)

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2020, 03:56:55 PM »
So I have now combat tested a 2 stage missile that also does not appear to work. 1st stage (the booster stage) works as intended and closes towards the target, but after the 2nd stage separates, it disappears. No event log entry or anything, just vanishes.

I'm sticking to single stage designs for a while.
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Offline Father Tim

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #58 on: May 22, 2020, 06:48:22 PM »
So I have now combat tested a 2 stage missile that also does not appear to work. 1st stage (the booster stage) works as intended and closes towards the target, but after the 2nd stage separates, it disappears. No event log entry or anything, just vanishes.

I'm sticking to single stage designs for a while.

Did your second stage have onboard sensors?

A missile that runs out of fuel is deleted.  That means it is a mistake to put engines (or fuel) on your 'buoy' or mine (stage), as that will only shorten its life.

A missile that entirely loses sensor lock is deleted.  If a later stage fails to properly inherit control from the firing ship, the missile poofs.  If the 'mine' stage loses lock (or range) to the target then a warhead without sensors has also lost its lock, and poofs.

The Aurora missile system wasn't designed with mines in mind; some clever folk figured out a way to make 'mines' with it and ever since we've been dealing with the fallout.
 

Offline Froggiest1982

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Re: Mines and Minefields
« Reply #59 on: May 22, 2020, 07:34:02 PM »
So I have now combat tested a 2 stage missile that also does not appear to work. 1st stage (the booster stage) works as intended and closes towards the target, but after the 2nd stage separates, it disappears. No event log entry or anything, just vanishes.

I'm sticking to single stage designs for a while.

Did your second stage have onboard sensors?

A missile that runs out of fuel is deleted.  That means it is a mistake to put engines (or fuel) on your 'buoy' or mine (stage), as that will only shorten its life.

A missile that entirely loses sensor lock is deleted.  If a later stage fails to properly inherit control from the firing ship, the missile poofs.  If the 'mine' stage loses lock (or range) to the target then a warhead without sensors has also lost its lock, and poofs.

The Aurora missile system wasn't designed with mines in mind; some clever folk figured out a way to make 'mines' with it and ever since we've been dealing with the fallout.

Also there is a bug where any 2nd or 3rd or 4th stage won't work even if with active sensors unless the missile is constantly under the MFC range.