Author Topic: Is diplomacy fixed by now?  (Read 2206 times)

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Offline Ekaton (OP)

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Is diplomacy fixed by now?
« on: August 31, 2020, 07:34:24 AM »
I haven’t played Aurora in a while and wondered, are the diplomacy bugs fixed by now, making it work as intended? I remember AI ships just standing in my system, refusing to be contacted, rendering diplomacy impossible.
 

Offline non sequitur

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Re: Is diplomacy fixed by now?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2020, 08:03:23 AM »
So far it's working for me. In my current campaign several years of diplomacy ships from the North Atlantic Union and the Empire of Runk have resulted in trade access.
 

Offline Elvin

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Re: Is diplomacy fixed by now?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2020, 04:28:20 PM »
I find it kinda hit and miss, but maybe I'm misunderstanding exactly how it should work. I find it very hard to actually communicate with aliens - they have a habit of not leaving diplomatic ships anywhere where I can access them, meaning I have to park in their systems, which seems to trigger both a relations malus and an interupt on every turn - both of which are very frustrating to deal with. The interupt most so.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Is diplomacy fixed by now?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2020, 04:54:11 PM »
From what I understand you basically cannot engage in long term diplomacy with aliens who are still only at their home system. They are touchy to the point where even a lone diplomatic ship will eventually be shot at (can take some years but it will happen eventually).

This is different in other systems that they control / have ships in and you can have a diplomatic ship follow theirs without attracting their ire I imagine.

I cant really say much beyond that since my version of diplomacy tends to be somewhat.... unconventional.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Is diplomacy fixed by now?
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2020, 05:51:04 PM »
From what I understand you basically cannot engage in long term diplomacy with aliens who are still only at their home system. They are touchy to the point where even a lone diplomatic ship will eventually be shot at (can take some years but it will happen eventually).

This is different in other systems that they control / have ships in and you can have a diplomatic ship follow theirs without attracting their ire I imagine.

I cant really say much beyond that since my version of diplomacy tends to be somewhat.... unconventional.

If an NPR don't have any presence outside their starting system they should actually allow you to maintain a diplomatic ship in their home system. But as soon as they establish a base outside they will no longer do that. So if that system is inaccessible to you it can be difficult to maintain diplomatic relations.
 

Offline Andrew

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Re: Is diplomacy fixed by now?
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2020, 06:27:53 PM »
When  I leave a diplomatic ship in a home system it tends to get blown up before full communication is established. With contact in other systems  I have got to the point of being considered freindly by at least one alien , it tends to help if they are several jumps away to cut down conflict over vital systems
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Is diplomacy fixed by now?
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2020, 06:44:36 PM »
When  I leave a diplomatic ship in a home system it tends to get blown up before full communication is established. With contact in other systems  I have got to the point of being considered freindly by at least one alien , it tends to help if they are several jumps away to cut down conflict over vital systems

Did they have any bases in systems outside that home system?!?

Steve have said that there is a special circumstance for NPR that only have the home system.
 

Offline Tikigod

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Re: Is diplomacy fixed by now?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2020, 12:59:39 AM »
When  I leave a diplomatic ship in a home system it tends to get blown up before full communication is established. With contact in other systems  I have got to the point of being considered freindly by at least one alien , it tends to help if they are several jumps away to cut down conflict over vital systems

I think a big factor is how your 'diplomatic ship' gets reported as a sensor contact.

For a example a 15,000 ton ship with military graded sensors, military engines, military J-Engine, cloak and a diplomacy module will be picked up by NPRs as being effectively the same as having a offensive capable military ship parked in their home system, as pretty much all components on that thing are screaming "Military ship" on sensors.

In one of my recent campaigns I fielded a joint stealth surveillance and diplomacy ship design that had ELINT, reduced thermal output military engines, long range EM sensor, cloak and a diplomacy module. As soon as a NPR detected the ship monitoring them on their sensors, they'd immediately react telling me the ship needs to leave immediately or be destroyed. Until they detected the ship, even though it was communicating with them and building diplomacy they had no problems.

I then fielded a 2nd design, this time with just reduced thermal output civilian engine and diplomacy module and sent it out. And they never said a thing about the ship being there even though I highly suspect the lack of cloak has meant they'd picked it up sitting there easily enough.



As far as the OP question of 'Is diplomacy fixed now?'..... it's a bit mixed. For example I've had situations where I have had colonies in systems neighbouring my empires home system with a few million population on them. My survey ships exploring generate a new NPR 3 or 4 systems away and within a year or two that new NPR has gated a path right up to my border colonies. Even with communications established and despite being flagged as a "Request/Demand leave" the NPRs will refuse to recognise things like a system with 2 planets with 300 automated mines with each sending their minerals to a populated planet with a population of 5-6 million as being 'evidence' that I have any actual activity in the system and will ignore my warning and begin setting up operations in the system themselves and then quickly deciding I am the one intruding.

Other times once I've had border colonies that have 100 million+ population and spawned a NPR that's quickly gated across 4-5 systems and made its way to my colony in a year or less since being spawned by my exploration ships, and the NPRs have happily listened to demands of leaving and respected my territory.

So diplomacy sort of works... but the NPRs criteria for what counts as evidence of another empire having operations in a system seems a bit off and really discourages on-going exploration whilst you got border colonies getting established as NPRs even friendly ones will just locust swarm over there in no time flat after being spawned via exploration and refuse to recognise millions of people and multiple mining operations as being note worthy.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2020, 01:14:17 AM by Tikigod »
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Offline mike2R

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Re: Is diplomacy fixed by now?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2020, 04:38:26 AM »
For a example a 15,000 ton ship with military graded sensors, military engines, military J-Engine, cloak and a diplomacy module will be picked up by NPRs as being effectively the same as having a offensive capable military ship parked in their home system, as pretty much all components on that thing are screaming "Military ship" on sensors.

According to this: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg118318#msg118318

Quote
NPRs deduct 10,000 tons from the tonnage of one Diplomatic Ship (see Part 8) per system for threat purposes if that class type has never fired weapons and the Diplomatic Ship is in a non-Core system. If the NPR only has one system, it is not treated as core for this purpose.

In my own limited experience, keeping a diplomatic ship below 10,000 tons has let me make contact in NPR claimed systems, without generating messages to leave.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Is diplomacy fixed by now?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2020, 10:17:09 PM »
As far as the OP question of 'Is diplomacy fixed now?'..... it's a bit mixed. For example I've had situations where I have had colonies in systems neighbouring my empires home system with a few million population on them. My survey ships exploring generate a new NPR 3 or 4 systems away and within a year or two that new NPR has gated a path right up to my border colonies. Even with communications established and despite being flagged as a "Request/Demand leave" the NPRs will refuse to recognise things like a system with 2 planets with 300 automated mines with each sending their minerals to a populated planet with a population of 5-6 million as being 'evidence' that I have any actual activity in the system and will ignore my warning and begin setting up operations in the system themselves and then quickly deciding I am the one intruding.

Other times once I've had border colonies that have 100 million+ population and spawned a NPR that's quickly gated across 4-5 systems and made its way to my colony in a year or less since being spawned by my exploration ships, and the NPRs have happily listened to demands of leaving and respected my territory.

So diplomacy sort of works... but the NPRs criteria for what counts as evidence of another empire having operations in a system seems a bit off and really discourages on-going exploration whilst you got border colonies getting established as NPRs even friendly ones will just locust swarm over there in no time flat after being spawned via exploration and refuse to recognise millions of people and multiple mining operations as being note worthy.

This is because it seems to work on a hard-limit basis where if a system has less than 10 million population it might as well be unoccupied.

I think it should be made so that alongside the actual population the AI should consider the amount of actual presence - installations (how much on how many different bodies) and military ships.

In fact, something similar to the PPV score is actually perfect for this purpose you could have it so that if the system doesn't have a population below 10m population that the AI looks at the PPV rating of the system. If its high enough, then it wont try to push a claim. If a frontier system doesn't have a very high PPV score then the AI will send a fleet corresponding to the PPV level that it would expect.

The way that the AI considers expected PPV would be to use a small fraction of the PPV that is on all of its neighbouring systems as well as the known resource content - the players PPV against the AIs. The AI should try its best to match or be somewhat near the PPV score of the other AI in order to protect its own territory. This would mean that military buildups on the frontiers would crop up organically and have meaning beyond just being the prelude to invasion.

Using something like the PPV score is also useful because it avoids the problem of letting the AI directly gain vision/locations of ships etc. All you have to do is reveal the PPV score to the player/NPR which is what they do to decide if a system is well established. I've been using PPV as an example because it is a system-wide value that already exists in the game but it should probably be something a little different like PP (Presence Points).

PP should not replace the hard cap on population as that would allow the player to cheese the AI out of territory (probably) but the hard-cap could be lifted to 100m or something. PP itself could incorporate things such as but not necessarily limited to: PPV in system, %PPV incoming from neighbouring systems (probably small %), no. of installations, amount of population in system, population of the largest population in system.

You could even pit the PP score against a systems value (which the AI already computes) in order for a "boxed in" NPR to decide whether or not it wants to wage an entire campaign to take a system.

Idk what do you guys think, should I post to suggestions?
 

Offline Elvin

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Re: Is diplomacy fixed by now?
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2020, 01:46:06 AM »
In fact, something similar to the PPV score is actually perfect for this purpose you could have it so that if the system doesn't have a population below 10m population that the AI looks at the PPV rating of the system. If its high enough, then it wont try to push a claim. If a frontier system doesn't have a very high PPV score then the AI will send a fleet corresponding to the PPV level that it would expect.

From this post, it sounds like Military Strength is already factored in to whether NPRs accept diplomacy or not: http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg118362#msg118362
 

Offline Steve Walmsley

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Re: Is diplomacy fixed by now?
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2020, 03:17:06 AM »
This is because it seems to work on a hard-limit basis where if a system has less than 10 million population it might as well be unoccupied.

I think it should be made so that alongside the actual population the AI should consider the amount of actual presence - installations (how much on how many different bodies) and military ships.

There is no hard limit and military is considered. This post has the details:

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg118362#msg118362
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Is diplomacy fixed by now?
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2020, 06:22:38 AM »
This is because it seems to work on a hard-limit basis where if a system has less than 10 million population it might as well be unoccupied.

I think it should be made so that alongside the actual population the AI should consider the amount of actual presence - installations (how much on how many different bodies) and military ships.

There is no hard limit and military is considered. This post has the details:

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg118362#msg118362

I had only heard about the 10m population thing so was unaware that this is how it was handled. Oops