Post reply

Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Unless you're sure you want to reply, please consider starting a new topic.

Note: this post will not display until it's been approved by a moderator.

Name:
Email:
Subject:
Message icon:

shortcuts: hit alt+s to submit/post or alt+p to preview

Please read the rules before you post!


Topic Summary

Posted by: Michael Sandy
« on: February 21, 2020, 03:26:09 PM »

The biggest problem for a stealthed boarding craft is always going to be that you need a 10x speed edge in your boarding craft to have a successful boarding, and you are better off with a greater speed edge to avoid massive casualties in your boarders.

And while you might be able to get that speed edge vs slow commercial ship, normally you have to cripple an enemy in order to board.  Which means you need some fleet component designed to disable the enemy prior to boarding, or approaching with your boarders.

It is why my design philosophy for fast beam capital ships includes a cryo boarding module.  I don't need to worry about them being destroyed on approach, because they have already approached.
Posted by: Paul M
« on: February 20, 2020, 11:15:37 AM »

It pays to consider that the defenders are even better suited to launching boarding ships then the attackers...the attackers will not be able to see them coming and won't be able to engage them.

One thing with the stealth raider where I think you could use it...   If you are playing like the ISW3 Rigillians and are keen to interrogate prisoners for info then in conjunction with stealth armed raiders you could pick off a civilian ship and capture the crew.  A civilian ship would see the raider on its 1 thermal at 48k km so basically never as you could close to 100k and launch the boarding pod.   I don't see this as "roleplaying" but I can't really see this as a standard sort of activity but for races with contact with an unsuspecting vic-I mean neighbor it might be worth the investment.
Posted by: iceball3
« on: February 20, 2020, 07:30:16 AM »

Actually, this all suddenly makes me wonder.
How long is the delay for the boarding action when breaking through a jump point?
I know fire control, active sensors, and the like are jammed, as well as a slight orders delay, but if it's much shorter than using weapons you could probably do some spicy jump assaults that heavily rely on boarding hostile vessels in range of the jump point.
Not pertinent to stealth ships though, obviously, except for the fact that it'd be sneaky in of itself.
Posted by: Paul M
« on: February 16, 2020, 07:21:56 AM »

I wrote 80 for the detection value above but the calculation was done with 48 so that works.  A current NCN warship would detect the full speed thermal emission of the raider at 1.5m km.

My problem is I see no point to the stealth raider except against an undefended target, and only so they don't spook on approach.  Against a disabled ship I can't see why you need to sneak up on it.   One of my auxiliary carriers could carry three of the pods and so the two of them in the squadron could launch 6 at the ship from close enough range there is no chance most of them won't make it.

I'm just not seeing why BuEng in any navy would fight for this project as a package.  The boarding pod...yes clearly if you want to board there you go.   But the raider ship...that I just can't see being justifiable.   I would see a marine assault ship getting through a review long before I can imagine the raider.
Posted by: Michael Sandy
« on: February 15, 2020, 02:24:22 PM »

Because boarding only works at all if you have an enormous speed advantage, it is really only useful against commercial ships, disabled ships, and space stations.

For the first two, you still want enormous speed, because getting a ship all the way to zero speed risks destroying it.  If you have mostly crippled an enemy ship, it will likely be separated from their fleet, and therefore have less point blank fire power.  If you want to be safe, you can send a sacrificial 80 ton scout to check, but otherwise you are going to have to enter their envelope.  A tactic is to bait out their firepower at the edge of their range envelope, and close before their weapons can recycle, but that isn't going to protect against point defense shredding your boarding ship.

A lot depends on what you know about the enemy ships.  If they are dedicated missile combatants, you can just wait until they are out of missiles, or if they are on a 10 minute reload cycle.  If they are a beam combatant or mixed with integral point defense, you will have to risk losing boarding pods.  So the question is what are the effective and efficient ways to boarding, losing the least boarding pods?  Numbers?  Armor?  Speed? ECM?  ECM, unless you have a significant tech lead with it, is an expensive way for a fighter or FAC to defend against a capital ship.  ECM and numbers might work, if the target has a limited number of ECCM to apply to whatever is swatting the boarding pods.

Speed is going to help a bit more against missiles than point defense.  But being able to soak AMMs is going to increase the number of missiles required to disable more than pure speed is likely to.  A solo disabled ship isn't likely to have the missile density to penetrate the point defense that railgun fighters escorting the boarding pods can bring to bear.  Unless you are talking pvp, where the player will hold fire until point blank to bypass PD.

On a pure cost basis, I would generally prefer a speed + armor solution.  And it would also depend on whether I was more limited in shipyard capacity or marine companies.

Another solution is to have the boarding modules on your fast beam combatants, in cryo modules.  They are already fast, already close, and already have the armor and/or shields to be survivable, especially vs a disabled ship.  Having non-cryo boarding pods on fighters or FACS is great where you want absolute speed, for going after intact commercial ships, where you couldn't afford that engine ratio on a beam combatant.

Boarding a space station, the calculus is slightly different.  You can cross a point defense envelope before the enemy fires, and then all you lose is the boarding pod.  So cheap boarding pods would be the efficient method there, and possible have a ship at the edge of its main beam envelope drawing fire as the pods approach.

I don't see stealth boarding pods working by themselves, so evaluating them depends a lot on your doctrine of who they are working WITH.  And on whether you are talking about fighting the AI, or fighting in duels.  Or whether you want anti-player designs for RP purposes.

ECM helps most (in my opinion) in combats where both sides are using similar ranged weapons.  It can help you get off the first shot in a missile duel, or more effective in a beam engagement.  However, unless you can close the entire enemy envelope before it runs out of missiles or before it can reload, ECM isn't going to help beam ships much vs missiles, or a boarding pod versus beams.
Posted by: Paul M
« on: February 15, 2020, 06:57:33 AM »

The part that I don't understand is how you expect to get close enough to any warship to launch the boarding pod.  Thermal of 80 is something than any NCN warship would pick up at around 1.5 m km and those ships are around 2 tech levels below the ship in question.   You would have to be sneaking up a very low velocity.   I shudder to think where a colony would pick it up.   And at that range the main fire controls likely would be effective against cross-section 7 and the CM sensor would pick them up with no trouble.   Launching the boarding pod from outside of 125k km would be instant death for it.   It has to arrive in 5s or else it would be shredded...worst case you might launch it 375k km and hope it survives 3 rounds of fire.  Some anti-shipping lasers could engage it nearly at that range.

But how against anything that isn't stationary this would work is beyond my imagination.  Most of my thought experiments end up with both ships detected and destroyed outside a range you could expect to launch and survive.

The ECM is effective against beam weapons but well...don't you expect your enemy has ECCM?

Where I can see this working is against bases that lack defenses and a garrison but most other military ships will see you well outside a range where you can launch the boarder.  Ok...any military ship I design would pick them up on thermals outside of range so potentially this is far from a general statement.
Posted by: hubgbf
« on: February 14, 2020, 04:29:48 AM »

My mistake about beam effects of ECM.

And yet you lack armor. One laser shot go through your armor and start destroying componnt. You loose your drop cryopod and it is a mission kill. You lost your engine, and it is a mission kill too. How much shots to kill your chip ? 2 ? 3 ?
Even without ECCM, a defensive turret designed to kill ASM will have a good chance to hit you as it is designed to kill far faster missiles with a huge salvo missile number.

But the true problem is not beam defense. At 25 kkm/s, you will go through their defensive range in 2 to 4 round at most. They will only get one good shot or two, with or without ECM.
But you will be destroyed by AMM fire from 2-3 millions kilometers. Do you think your design will be able to survive 16x5-sec increment ? (and more if you are chasing them ?)
You start getting internal damage with 2 to 9 AMM.

Or do you plan to expand lots of missiles to make them use all their AMM before?
IF it is your stratgy, then the ennemys ships could be fleeing, which means a lower relative speed and more time in laser range.

You need a cryopod, speed , and armor, everything else is nearly useless IMHO.
And your stealth CV lacks armor too.

In my curent game, I'm designing ships for a boarding attempt on huge spoiler defensive stations, somewhat like in the crusade campaign.
Tons of AMM and defensive beam weapon. I'll be going with several assault carriers with huge armor and some shields and CIWS, covered by huge salvoes of missile to make the AI choose between missiles and my assault carriers. Once at the laser range limit, I will launch FAC designed for boarding, with speed and armor, hoping enough will survive. plan is 3-4 assault carrier and 20-30 boarding FAC.
I plan to use the assault carrier later, as they are costly. They'll have less hangar bay than standard CV, but they will be far more hard to kill

Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: February 14, 2020, 01:40:35 AM »

Yup, and Compact ECM is only 50 Tons or 1 HS, not much more engine overall. Plus, at higher tech the Small Craft ECM is only 25 Tons or 0.5 HS, which is VERY get up into ECM 8-10.
Posted by: iceball3
« on: February 14, 2020, 12:50:44 AM »

ECM affects the accuracy of beam weapons all the way up to near point blank. Considering beam weapons will be engaging from farther than point blank, it can have a measurable affect on being engaged by long range, long cooldown beam weapons. Considering it will have an impact on missile fire control too, it means you can get closer to the hostile ship before missiles start firing, assuming he missile fire control isn't significantly overengineered.
In either case, reducing the time it takes for your ship to move into drop pod range by 10% will have a similar affect to reducing the effective range of enemy weapons by 10%, with ECM only significantly reducing hit chance of beam weapons, so it's a good ideas to compare it to engines in these respects.
Posted by: hubgbf
« on: February 13, 2020, 04:14:00 PM »

ECM only reduce range. IMHO it is useless for boarding ship.

Better to have some armor.
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: February 13, 2020, 02:29:11 PM »

Which is why I re-designed the Dagger into the Dagger II and offloaded the stealth to the Cloak-Class Carrier. The Dagger was built under the assumption that you could fire a Combat Drop module at a target from range, so the cloak would allow it to stay outside the range of AM/AF sensors (Res 1-10) and fire the Combat Module from there. Unfortunately the good people here clarified that boarding is in fact at range 0, so the Dagger II was designed with greater speed. The ECM helps you to not get hit by reducing the range/accuracy of the enemy FCS.
Posted by: hubgbf
« on: February 13, 2020, 04:41:22 AM »

If you are getting close, they will spot you.

Most ships or fleet have active sensors designed to spot small sized missile, so you will be spotted and fired on by anti missiles defense (turret, railgun, AMM, and so on)
ECM, stealth and so on are far less usefull than speed, and a bit of armor, but for RP purposes.
Posted by: xenoscepter
« on: February 12, 2020, 11:14:00 PM »

Yes, eventually they will see you, but that is the point of the stealth. You don't want to get shot at on the approach, so the cloak is there to keep the enemy from seeing you until the last possible moment. However, with the speed so low, it wouldn't matter anyway, so I offloaded the cloak to the carrier, which can use it to skulk around and launch the boarding craft at the target at the closest possible range.
Posted by: Akhillis
« on: February 12, 2020, 10:11:21 PM »

Nice design for RP purposes, but the stealth is a bit redundant. You can only board at 0 range, so if they've got any active sensors at all they'll spot you.
Posted by: Gabethebaldandbold
« on: February 12, 2020, 04:00:07 PM »

never pulled of boarding actions, does it work? what happens when you do it?