Author Topic: Anybody Still Have the UMT?  (Read 14448 times)

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Offline crucis

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Re: Anybody Still Have the UMT?
« Reply #105 on: April 23, 2010, 10:08:28 PM »
Quote from: "procyon"
Terraforming is a neat, but probably complicated idea.  If simplified, it probably doesn't required much more of a suspension of 'reality' than everyone having reactionless drives capable of relativistic speeds and conversion of matter to energy.  
Is it worth the effort to put together for the game, I don't know.  I like to write the stories, not the rules.

As you point out below, procyon, Terraforming is probably only a useful concept if Type T/ST planets are sufficiently rare and if Terraforming was capable of being carried out in a sufficiently short time (even within the game's compressed time scale) at something approaching an affordable cost.


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As for body location and habitability, that actually is a lot more mutable than what some might think.  If you popped into Sol system through a warp point a sufficient amount of time ago, Mars would have had a magnetosphere, slightly denser atmosphere, and liquid water on it.  I don't think there are many people left who will argue whether Mars used to hold liquid water, its just a question of how much and when.  Depending on the time frame, Venus might be much closer to habitable than what we currently see.  Earth has managed a much longer habitable period, but as you say, location, location, location.

As for Mars and its magnetosphere, you'd have to have showed up about 4 billion years ago, since that's the current estimate for how long ago Mars lost its magsphere.  And remember that the solar system is about 4.5 or so billion years old.  AND IIRC, Earth's atmosphere is younger than that.  As I mentioned earlier, from what I've read on the topic, smaller planets appear to have difficulty retaining magnetospheres due to their small size.  Also, smaller planets have weaker gravities and thus a weaker ability to prevent lighter molecules from escaping its gravitic influence.

Regarding Venus, yes, it's possible that that is true for a couple of reasons.  First of all, it's believed that liquid water zones migrate outward as stars age and emit more energy.  So, it's likely that Venus was closer to the inner edge of the LWZ at some point in the distant past.  Secondly, Venus may have had a decent magsphere at some point in its past, though I don't recall reading anything on when it's believed that Venus lost its magsphere.  I've also read that it's been hypothosized that Venus may have been hit by one or two moons over the eons and that those collisions are responsible for its very slow rotation.

I agree that there may be some "slop" in the "habitability zone".  But a part of the "problem" in Starfire is the relatively simplistic model being used.

A. Orbits are only measured in single LM increments.  This prevents planets from existing every so slightly closer to LWZ borders and having slightly better and friendlier black body temperatures that could mean the difference between being uninhabitable and being barely habitable.  The use of single LM increments causes each planetary orbit to have some very specific black body temperatures, which are used to produce the various planetary zone borders, and tends to make those borders appear be very "bright lines".  However, trying to do the Titius-Bode tables in non-whole numbers is probably nothing but a total horror show, and only realistically do-able on a purely computer model.


B. The Star Types used only represent a single semi-average sub-type within the actual range of spectral classes represented by that star type.  That is, the Yellow star type represents Spectral Class G0-G9 stars.  However, the purposes of limiting the number of planet-producing star types to a reasonable number, the Yellow star type is represented by the G5 spectral sub-class's planetary zone range values.  If I were to used all of the spectral sub-types represented by the White, Yellow, Orange, Red, and Red Dwarf star types, you'd have a 35 different star type rows in the planetary formation zone tables.  But on the flip side, you'd have star systems that had a considerably more granularity in differentiation from subtype to subtype.  That is, a Class G2 star (Sol is a G2) wouldn't have the same planetary formation zones as a Class G8 star.  A G8 would have PFZ ranges closer to the current Orange type than the current White type.  


I've actually considered doing this, but it may be a bit too much for some people, though it would create a very realistic feel when you could say that your binary system was a G3/K7 binary, rather than just a Yellow/Orange binary.  If all of these sub types were used, on the primary star type table, you'd instead first roll for Spectral Class F, G, K, or M (rather than a star "color"), then you'd roll 1d10 (0 to 9) for the sub type, with values of 0-4 being ignored for Class F stars.  The fact of the matter is that I actually constructed the tables for all 35 spectral sub-types from F5 thru M9, so putting them into the rules wouldn't be difficult at all, aside from the fact that the table itself would be rather more sizeable.  The rules for using such a table would be no different than the way the PFZ tables currently work... there'd just be about 7 times as many rows ... but a lot more variety.


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Tempature could be moderated with liberation of CO2 from most rocks on a planet/moon, is opaque to IR light so it absorbs heat well (as is methane and several other gases), and would in sufficient quantity would allow for plant/bacterial life if temperatures were adequate.  I'm sure 'super science' could come up with equally useful compounds that weren't as toxic as high concentration CO2 would be.  

Protection from ionizing radiation would be the problem, as would be the soil of most planets without an atmosphere.  Radiation isn't going to care about CO2, and sterile plants would be poor at repopulating themselves.  Soil exposed to this same radiation will form compounds that are peroxides and would be a great anticeptic in and of themselves.  Not impossible to overcome, just tedious and most likely expensive.

Is terraforming worth it in a game where you can just survey and jump to the next system?  I don't know... that is a hard one.  If T's got rare (devious SM thoughts at work for a future game if this became an option)  and terraforming was competitive with multi month colonization transport, maybe.  With the current availability of T's, and the ease of looking for more, I just don't see it getting used unless it was cheaper than looking for one, which would only increase the number of habitables and speed of the economic spiral.

Unless T's got rare, I just don't see terraforming (increasing the number of T's) helping the game.

As I said above, I tend to agree regarding terraforming, for the same reasons as you detail.
 

Offline procyon

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Re: Anybody Still Have the UMT?
« Reply #106 on: April 23, 2010, 10:27:19 PM »
Spectral class could be fun, especially if you get into realistic star sizes (one that reaches the orbit of Mars - like Antares).

Problem - most folks wouldn't have a clue what they were looking at unless you put together a fairly long explanation of the classes.  

The rules for starfire seem to be long enough without adding more.  Fun thought, but if you hope to be able to draw in more players, I doubt adding a seven page table and description section just for stars, let alone the zones and habitibility of the bodies, is going to help much.

Keeping some things simple isn't always a bad thing.
(Although a supplement with that table for we old physicists would be AWESOME!) :D
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Offline crucis

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Re: Anybody Still Have the UMT?
« Reply #107 on: April 23, 2010, 10:53:35 PM »
Quote from: "procyon"
Spectral class could be fun, especially if you get into realistic star sizes (one that reaches the orbit of Mars - like Antares).

Problem - most folks wouldn't have a clue what they were looking at unless you put together a fairly long explanation of the classes.  

The rules for starfire seem to be long enough without adding more.  Fun thought, but if you hope to be able to draw in more players, I doubt adding a seven page table and description section just for stars, let alone the zones and habitibility of the bodies, is going to help much.

Keeping some things simple isn't always a bad thing.
(Although a supplement with that table for we old physicists would be AWESOME!) :D

Yes, I agree that there will be a segment of the player population that may have no clue what spectral classes are.  But I've always had a perception (perhaps an incorrect one) that Starfire players are sci-fi fans at heart, and sci-fi fans will have a bit of science geek in them (some more than others, of course)... so I don't think that most Starfire fans would be so ignorant of astronomy to not know what spectral classes are at a very basic level, or at least lack the ability to understand what they are.  It's
really not THAT difficult to explain.  

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Stars come in different sizes and temperatures, and while for a basic table, star "types" are grouped into rather large "buckets", in reality, those buckets are a bit smaller, and are referred to as Spectral classes and subclasses. Starting at the smallest and coolest subclass used (M9) and going up thru the largest and hotest (F5), stars grow increasingly large and hot as the spectral classes and subclasses increase from 9 to 0, and from M to F.  And as those spectral subclasses grow hotter, their planetary formations zones are pushed increasingly farther from the star... with the zones being very, very close to very cool M9 stars and much more distant for hot F5 stars.
 

That would seem to cover most of the high points without delving into serious detail.

As for the length of the planetary formation zone table, actually a 35 row table should really only be about the same size as the Titius-Bode table, which is also about the same number of rows.

Please note that I wouldn't inflict this on anyone as the standard rule.  But it could make a very interesting optional rule for some people, and it would inject a good deal of variety in star systems since, for example, a G0 and a G9 would no longer have the same PFZ's, since the outer edge of the G0's LWZ might place planet at a similar distance from a G9 in that star's gas zone.

Anyways, it's just a vague thought... and not of any real importance at this point in time...
 

Offline miketr

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Re: Anybody Still Have the UMT?
« Reply #108 on: April 24, 2010, 12:01:25 AM »
I will give a more detailed response Sunday or Monday.

For now just keep in mind that we don't have to worry about Terraforming needing to last in the long term, IE millions or even billions of years.  Thousands is a fine time scale.  Again looking back to classic Science Fiction Mars is often shown as a dying world, or having once held a highly advanced civilization but that civilization collapsed or was destroyed for whatever reason it and human explores or adventures discover the tech and make Mars green once more.

Or what I am trying to say is we don't need to worry about terraforming be a permanent change to a world.  

Michael
 

Offline crucis

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Re: Anybody Still Have the UMT?
« Reply #109 on: April 24, 2010, 12:11:31 AM »
Quote from: "miketr"
I will give a more detailed response Sunday or Monday.

For now just keep in mind that we don't have to worry about Terraforming needing to last in the long term, IE millions or even billions of years.  Thousands is a fine time scale.  Again looking back to classic Science Fiction Mars is often shown as a dying world, or having once held a highly advanced civilization but that civilization collapsed or was destroyed for whatever reason it and human explores or adventures discover the tech and make Mars green once more.

Or what I am trying to say is we don't need to worry about terraforming be a permanent change to a world.  

Michael

That's a fair point, Michael.  

Sort of reminds me of the terraforming of the "Spacer" worlds in Isaac Asimov's Foundation/Robots universe.  In the time of the Robot novels, the Spacer worlds had been terraformed into great places.  But by the time of the Foundation series (about 20,000 yrs later), some of the Spacer worlds had degenerated considerably (Aurora, in particular).  The only Spacer world that had retained its environment intact (that was seen in the stories) was Solaria, which was still inhabited by millions of robots, as well as its roughly 10,000 Solarian "humans".  Of course, I'm not sure that these terraformed worlds were actually desolates that had been terrformed into habitables.  They may have been more like TF'd harsh or hostiles to benigns.... (which I suppose could be another terraforming option...)


Crucis
 

Offline procyon

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Re: Anybody Still Have the UMT?
« Reply #110 on: April 24, 2010, 12:14:27 AM »
Of course 'terraforming' for an O2 race would be a whole different thing.
Giant mass drivers blowing off your atmosphere into space, etc.  :shock:
'nuff with that thought.
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Offline crucis

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Re: Anybody Still Have the UMT?
« Reply #111 on: April 24, 2010, 12:21:44 AM »
Quote from: "procyon"
Of course 'terraforming' for an O2 race would be a whole different thing.
Giant mass drivers blowing off your atmosphere into space, etc.  :mrgreen:
 

Offline rmcrowe

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Re: Anybody Still Have the UMT?
« Reply #112 on: June 23, 2010, 12:16:36 PM »
One thought I did not see in the "slow down colonization" thread is to hark back to a truly old rule.  The one requring that an OP be in place for a time before placing a colony, then a time to build infrastructure for a settlement, etc.  Time interval can be set to slow things down as much as needed, I recall the originals as 5, 10, 15 . . . months.

robert
 

Offline procyon

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Re: Anybody Still Have the UMT?
« Reply #113 on: June 25, 2010, 06:57:10 AM »
ISF definitely had the wait time built in, with pop's going up in jumps from one level to the next and TL affecting the pop's value. The PU/PTU model has more of a sliding scale with TL only affecting the max population on habitables.  The two don't tend to mix well, as trying to grade values of PU by TL tends to really speed up the runaway economic problem, while making someone wait months to go from 20 PU to 21PU, when he didn't have to wait at all for 1-19 just doesn't feel right to me at least.  Especially when going from 20 to 21 doesn't increase your income any more than 19 to 20 did.

I think crucis is planning on using the PTU model for Cosmic, but that's just based on what I've read of his posts.  If it goes that way, the wait times just don't work so well.  But that is all just my opinion.

Hope that helps.
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Offline Tregonsee

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Re: Anybody Still Have the UMT?
« Reply #114 on: September 17, 2010, 01:39:10 PM »
Wow guys, just wow.  I have been away for several months, and look what happens...

Several things:

1) Is there a chance that someone (Steve W, Administrators) break off this thread?  I mean, I came back thinking that this thread was about getting the UTM, something I still want, and it has morphed to Starfire economics and scaling issues.  Someone looking for these new issues might never find it, based on the thread title.

2) I don't think it is the economics that is stretching out things in Starfire, but it is a symptom.  The problem seems to be scope of command.  One single person cannot easily manage all of the decisions that need to be made in a timely manner.  Whether it is economics of 20+ planets or fleets of several hundred corvettes, it is too big and clunky to easily handle without computer aid, and even then it is hard-

     2a) In a battle, you take a ship, find out what weapons you have usable, find a suitable target ship(s) (by determining what is shields down, breathing atmosphere, fired a certain weapon type last turn, etc), figure range, fire weapons, figure missile interceptions if any, and apply damage.  Imagine trying to do that for a 400 ship simultaneous WP assault against a fleet, deployed Base Stations of varying types, minefields, DSB-s, and IDEWs of multiple types.  It actually got to be work, not a fun battle.  This took place over 5+ nights and then I had to finish it up using SA because the logistics of getting together to finish the battle was just too great...


3) As for such a battle, even in SF classics, there was an acknowledgement of the complexities involved.  There is such a big span of control that no one person can control it all.  In 2nd Stage Lensman by E. E. "Doc" Smith, they built huge special ships that all it was was a "tank" by which the battle could be "seen" by the Admirals.

4) The economics seem to be more like a runaway petri dish without the petri dish capping growth.


THEREFORE, I make the following suggestions for discussion-


A) A limit be placed on the number of ships an Admiral can control, and limit on how one gets admirals.  This could be a limit like the old personnel points without having to track so hard.  It would induce players to have smaller amounts of larger ships over massive "swarm attacks", and would force a player to be a little more conservative in tactics, in that they have to conserve the number of Admirals they have, and would even have an inducement for more diplomacy between players (Admiral prisoner exchanges).

B) Economics is based on two basic concepts- population and its growth, and the money derived thereof.  Now in every military that I know of, the budget is based on a yearly basis.  People can grow and die and be born all of the time (monthly population growth) but the money is given on a yearly basis.  You get that amount and it has to last the entire year.  This does several things:

     B1)  Chops amount of money available for shipbuilding, etc by a factor of 12.  We only get taxed once a year, right?  Government gets yearly budgets and doles the money out by quarter for various things.

     B2)  Since you don't get money again for 12 more turns, it forces more planning, and for you to set aside money for emergencies.

     B3)  Less bookkeeping.  Now a colony placed at the end of the year will produce the same amount of tax revenue as one that has been around for awhile, but it is also true (at least in the US) that a wedding or childbirth affects the whole tax year for income taxes, even if it occurrs on 31 December.  Sorry, it can't be easily helped.

     B4)  If emergencies occur, one can sell ships or IUs for fast cash.

     B5)  These changes would lead to smaller fleet sizes as well, which lead to smaller and more manageable battles.




I hope everyone does not mind me getting on this soap box, but I read the whole thread without replying, having to read 6+ pages...