Author Topic: Free fighter/pdc/ship refits  (Read 2242 times)

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Offline Sharp (OP)

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Free fighter/pdc/ship refits
« on: April 14, 2014, 04:59:54 PM »
Bit of a powerful bug. 

Fighters can get upgraded on the fly.   Changing the design of the fighter in the ship design menu instantly changes all existing fighters, it also doesn't seem to care if the new design is not a fighter anymore, I can send a swarm of fighters and turn them from having 1-5 armour 475 tons into 150,000 ton behemoths with 40-253 armour and 20 meson cannons and 1000 engines. 

My guess is the game needs to lock built and building fighter designs like it does for other ships and then be able to obsolete old fighter designs so they don't clog up the ship designs list.

Quote from: Charlie Beeler
You're supposed to lock all designs prior to building(fighter/ship/pdc).   Steve added to lock control to the design screen for this purpose.   If I recall correctly, the reason Steve has not added a check to constuction is that in SM mode the lock can be turned off.

All ship designs are auto-locked once a shipyard is retooling for it and locked while it is tooled for a design.   Fighters though aren't built in shipyards so they don't get locked.   I can understand the SM mode to unlock existing designs on shipyards for when people forget to add that one component to their design.   The optional lock design option is so you don't make accidental changes if you are just browsing your design.   This bug exists for fighters and PDC's and any ships which don't have design on shipyard. 

What needs to be changed though is locking designs if there are ships existing with that design, the same bug occurs if you retool a shipyard from one design to another but still have ships on the old design, any changes to that design will affect any ships in existence. 

Current
If shipyard has design as assigned class or shipyard is retooling to design then lock design

Proposal
If shipyard has design as assigned class or shipyard is retooling to design or population industry building design then lock design
If ship has design then lock design

----

My understanding is that SM mode is for RP purposes and bypassing any minor bugs that might occur (like PDC going on Task Group training and ending up in the middle of the Sun), while playing without SM mode the game should run as a normal challenge and shouldn't really have exploits, im guessing this is true because ship designs in shipyards are automatically locked by the game and cannot be unlocked unless using SM mode or no longer having a shipyard tooled for the design.

It just looks like PDC's and Fighters are overlooked as well as Ships that are no longer tooled for in the Shipyard, so my idea of solving the problem would be checking if the ship exists (so is on ships list, doesn't matter if dead) and if ship exists then the design is automatically locked by the game, it will also lock the design if fighter or PDC/PDC component is being built.  Wrecks aren't affected by design change (I think, not 100% confirmed as don't have presence in sector where I have a wrecked ship of my design) so that shouldn't be a problem.  I don't think Aliens can board your ships yet and I'm not sure what happens if you gift/surrender a ship to an alien and then change the design, I suppose that could be solved when ship changes ownership the faction that gets the ship automatically creates a design of the ship which is locked so the original faction of the ship can change the design if that was the last ship of theirs and it shouldn't affect the new owners.

Right now it's a bit silly to be able to put a bunch of layers of armour on a ship just before missile impact, although would be interesting to see how the game reacts when you take away that armour and then when you add it again, I wonder if it would refresh the armour or if it would remember the damage allocation.
 

Offline Nathan_

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Re: Free fighter/pdc/ship refits
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2014, 12:44:04 AM »
It is not quite a bug, it is an SM feature. you can also unlock your ship designs if you want to alter them as well, but in general you aren't supposed to do that. care has to be taken with oribtals and PDCs as well I believe. and FastOOB might also create issues.


Quote
My understanding is that SM mode is for RP purposes and bypassing any minor bugs that might occur
Or if you forgot something minor on your ships and just don't want to bother with refitting them all.

Quote
Wrecks aren't affected by design change (I think, not 100% confirmed as don't have presence in sector where I have a wrecked ship of my design) so that shouldn't be a problem.
If you delete the design associated with a wreck it reverts to an unknown class wreck, I don't know if this affects minerals or components within however.

Quote
Right now it's a bit silly to be able to put a bunch of layers of armour on a ship just before missile impact, although would be interesting to see how the game reacts when you take away that armour and then when you add it again, I wonder if it would refresh the armour or if it would remember the damage allocation.
Well if you are using SM you can rearm/refuel/repair any ship at any time.  As to damage, I'd bet that it is stored, though if you reduce the size of the design to the point that armour damage occupies columns that do not exist or a depth that no longer exists that will probably create issues.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 12:50:11 AM by Nathan_ »
 

Offline Sharp (OP)

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Re: Free fighter/pdc/ship refits
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2014, 03:29:31 AM »
Quote from: Nathan_ link=topic=6972. msg71552#msg71552 date=1397540644
It is not quite a bug, it is an SM feature.  you can also unlock your ship designs if you want to alter them as well, but in general you aren't supposed to do that.  care has to be taken with oribtals and PDCs as well I believe.  and FastOOB might also create issues.

My point is that this is done without SM mode.  SM mode having designs unlocked is fine but this is changing designs of active ships/pdc's while not in SM mode, being able to alter an active ship while SM mode if off is an exploit/bug.
 

Offline alex_brunius

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Re: Free fighter/pdc/ship refits
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2014, 06:07:34 AM »
My point is that this is done without SM mode.  SM mode having designs unlocked is fine but this is changing designs of active ships/pdc's while not in SM mode, being able to alter an active ship while SM mode if off is an exploit/bug.

It would be good if you had to lock the design manually before it shows up as possible to build when it comes to fighters/PDCs or is locked automatically when you start production.

Currently this bug is in the greyzone I think since you can argue that you should always manually lock the design anyways before starting production.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Free fighter/pdc/ship refits
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2014, 08:24:01 AM »
A little background.  For the first several versions there was no lock feature.  It was added to help with the very issues you've noted, it's not perfect.  Initially it was only controlled from the design screen and unlocking did not require SM Mode.  Later the auto-lock was added to shipyard retooling and the SM Mode requirement to "unlock" was included. 

The current advised procedure is to manually lock your own designs prior to starting retooling or building projects.  At this time fighters do not have an upgrade/refit capability, PDC's have one that does not function correctly, and ships have functioned well for several versions.

Yes, this is a known exploit, which is why the advised procedure is to manually lock all designs.

Once you've started building anything the only reason too need to unlock a design is to fix an egregious error (ie forgetting to add fire controls). 

What you're describing sounds like you're using the original design and making changes that are intended as refit/upgrades of already build designs.  The correct method is to copy a class design, rename, make all desired changes, lock the design, then retool shipyards.  Following this method should have zero impact on built/deployed ships.  Do the same for fighters and PDC's(with the exception of not being able to retool and refit of course).
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline Sharp (OP)

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Re: Free fighter/pdc/ship refits
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2014, 09:03:05 AM »
What you're describing sounds like you're using the original design and making changes that are intended as refit/upgrades of already build designs.  The correct method is to copy a class design, rename, make all desired changes, lock the design, then retool shipyards.  Following this method should have zero impact on built/deployed ships.  Do the same for fighters and PDC's(with the exception of not being able to retool and refit of course).

Thanks for the BG info

:) Yup, that's what I'm doing now, not too bad what I did exploit as it was just changing armour type so it saved me 25 tons and I can't reverse it even if I tried (other then adding a junk 0.5 module), maybe I will just SM myself out of some minerals to pretend the fighters got a refit.

I'm hoping for future versions though it will auto-lock for fighters and PDC's but I can understand if that is too hard to fit in the current structure.
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Free fighter/pdc/ship refits
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2014, 09:43:29 AM »
Thought that might be the case. 

Something else to remember.  If you change a design that has deployed ships those ships are going to have potential issues.  Unless you open each individual ship/fighter/pdc in the F5 screen the changes aren't registered to the ship and you have potential errors during combat damage allocation (as well as other areas). 

Do some searchs of the bug threads for the last few versions and you'll find several postings and the work-arounds.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley
 

Offline MarcAFK

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Re: Free fighter/pdc/ship refits
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2014, 05:32:48 PM »
I'm a bit tired so maybe the first post went over my head a little, But it seems reasonable enough that once you start construction on a fighter/PDC the game should Autolock the design, I see no reason why it shouldn't.
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Offline sloanjh

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Re: Free fighter/pdc/ship refits
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2014, 06:26:48 AM »
I'm a bit tired so maybe the first post went over my head a little, But it seems reasonable enough that once you start construction on a fighter/PDC the game should Autolock the design, I see no reason why it shouldn't.

Because Steve forgot to code it up :)

The issue (I'm pretty sure, and as I think was said above) is that the locking happens in the "add to SY queue" event.  Since fighters/PDC are added to the factory queue, this code doesn't get called.  It's not WAI; I even have a vague recollection that he might have even said so the first time this came up and got logged.  Don't remember if it's fixed on his machine, though - I suspect not since I think it came up before the most recent release.

John
« Last Edit: April 16, 2014, 06:31:40 AM by sloanjh »
 

Offline Charlie Beeler

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Re: Free fighter/pdc/ship refits
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2014, 07:10:47 AM »
That's my recollection as well. 

The lock feature/tool was added because of issues related to ship refit design issues.  Since all of this predates PDC refits (which still doesn't work correctly) and fighters have no refit ability It's my understanding that Steve did not consider an auto-lock to their designs when projects are started as a priority when it was noted.
Amateurs study tactics, Professionals study logistics - paraphrase attributed to Gen Omar Bradley