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Posted by: Brian Neumann
« on: September 02, 2011, 04:47:42 PM »

Actualy i did not notice maintance clock rising while they are in hangars on carrier vessel.
That is the only place that the maintenance clock will not rise.  Anywhere else that is not a boat bay, or hanger bay and they will be adding time to the mainenance clock.

Brian
Posted by: Arwyn
« on: September 02, 2011, 04:24:09 PM »

How would the fare against an opponent that uses squadron transit with a jump radius that allows them to recover from jumpblindness before your fighters can reach attack range?

By themselves, poorly. I coordination with other defenses, rather well. It depends on the jump range. I had an NPR who had a pretty big jump radius, which was playing hell with my existing defenses that were based on mines. I had to move everything back from the warp point, which made concentration a challenge.

I built some smaller stations that only had a squadron each, that gave me at least one squadron within distance, and two others that could close quickly. In conjunction with bigger mines with longer range missiles, it works reasonable well.
Posted by: deoved
« on: September 02, 2011, 04:20:56 PM »

Actually it is not that easy to horde your fighters.  The only place that will keep them from running up time on the maintenance clock is in a hanger bay.  If they are just at a planet that doesn't do it, even if there is more than enough maintenance facilities available.  This means that you can't just produce fighters and have them available whenever you need them.  You need a hanger bay and the installation it is in is going to require minerals to maintain.

Brian

Actualy i did not notice maintance clock rising while they are in hangars on carrier vessel.
Posted by: Arwyn
« on: September 02, 2011, 04:20:39 PM »

Thats correct. I have defense stations that are nothing more than hangers, maintenance  and missile defense. They are armored heavily to take point blank missile shots. I have additional stations that sit back at range and provide either beam defense up close, or missiles at range.

The way the AI selects targets right now, they enemy usually goes for the stations first, letting the fighters close. Turrets tend the be the biggest issue. Short range lasers/mesons/Gauss tend to open up on the fighters as they have no other targets, assuming there are no missiles inbound.

The big advantage is that the fighters can sit in their stations for very long periods of time and launch instantly. I can also crank out a couple a month due to the low build points required, making them pretty cost efficient.

They are not perfect, but for that specific role of jump point defense, they do a good job and are cheap.

A few stations, some fighters and a chunk of mines, and I can pretty much close down a warp point to squadron transits.
Posted by: Brian Neumann
« on: September 02, 2011, 04:00:37 PM »

But you can horde fighters, they are expendable, nothing more than flesh and steel! If Steve only allows us to use kamikaze fighters...
Actually it is not that easy to horde your fighters.  The only place that will keep them from running up time on the maintenance clock is in a hanger bay.  If they are just at a planet that doesn't do it, even if there is more than enough maintenance facilities available.  This means that you can't just produce fighters and have them available whenever you need them.  You need a hanger bay and the installation it is in is going to require minerals to maintain.

Brian
Posted by: deoved
« on: September 02, 2011, 03:40:55 PM »

How would the fare against an oponent that uses squadron transit with a jump radius that allows them to recover from jumpblindness before your fighters can reach attack range?

But you can horde fighters, they are expendable, nothing more than flesh and steel! If Steve only allows us to use kamikaze fighters...
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: September 02, 2011, 12:41:59 PM »

I have found that Gauss armed fighters for WP defense are pretty nasty.

I was using 10 of these per squadron, along with sensors from a large well armored defense station/hanger.

Code: [Select]
F-5 Mako class Fighter    250 tons     6 Crew     52.5 BP      TCS 5  TH 16.8  EM 0
9600 km/s     Armour 2-3     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 2
Annual Failure Rate: 5%    IFR: 0.1%    Maint Capacity 13 MSP    Max Repair 14 MSP    Est Time: 5.6 Years

Rolls Royce E740 MPD Fighter Drive (1)    Power 48    Fuel Use 6000%    Signature 16.8    Armour 0    Exp 25%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres    Range 0.6 billion km   (17 hours at full power)

Gauss Cannon R3-33 (1x3)    Range 30,000km     TS: 9600 km/s     Accuracy Modifier 33%     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Durant Indigo/1 Fighter Cannon Control (1)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

Two to four squadrons on a warp point shredded enemy ships coming through. I was seeing a ship die about every 10 seconds with these guys attacking, the NPR armor was fairly light though, 4 or 5.

How would the fare against an oponent that uses squadron transit with a jump radius that allows them to recover from jumpblindness before your fighters can reach attack range?
Posted by: Arwyn
« on: September 02, 2011, 12:07:28 PM »

I have found that Gauss armed fighters for WP defense are pretty nasty.

I was using 10 of these per squadron, along with sensors from a large well armored defense station/hanger.

Code: [Select]
F-5 Mako class Fighter    250 tons     6 Crew     52.5 BP      TCS 5  TH 16.8  EM 0
9600 km/s     Armour 2-3     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 0     PPV 2
Annual Failure Rate: 5%    IFR: 0.1%    Maint Capacity 13 MSP    Max Repair 14 MSP    Est Time: 5.6 Years

Rolls Royce E740 MPD Fighter Drive (1)    Power 48    Fuel Use 6000%    Signature 16.8    Armour 0    Exp 25%
Fuel Capacity 5,000 Litres    Range 0.6 billion km   (17 hours at full power)

Gauss Cannon R3-33 (1x3)    Range 30,000km     TS: 9600 km/s     Accuracy Modifier 33%     RM 3    ROF 5        1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Durant Indigo/1 Fighter Cannon Control (1)    Max Range: 48,000 km   TS: 16000 km/s     79 58 38 17 0 0 0 0 0 0

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

Two to four squadrons on a warp point shredded enemy ships coming through. I was seeing a ship die about every 10 seconds with these guys attacking, the NPR armor was fairly light though, 4 or 5.
Posted by: Brian Neumann
« on: September 02, 2011, 07:32:12 AM »

One thing I have found beam armed fighters good for is basically a maned weapon pod for defending a fixed location.  A fighter with an any sized engine a little bit of maintenance can be left for a really long time guarding a point (ie jump point or planet) and they will be able to fire really quickly when an enemy comes through.  Also because of their small size they actually work fairly well as point defense vs missiles or fighters.  A fighter with a 12cm laser has a pretty good chance of killing another fighter on its first hit at close range.  As close range is what you are likely to get with a jump point assault this works well.

Brian
Posted by: chrislocke2000
« on: September 02, 2011, 06:41:16 AM »

To me, attacking a hostile fleet with beam weapons is like attacking a current carrier group with just machine guns on your fast jets. Granted, if you sent enough aircraft you are going to do some damage but not without loosing a whole host of fighters.

Compare that to the same fighters attacking some commercial shipping or a very lightly armed ship and you get a far better result, again reflected in current mechanics.

So all in all think beam armed fighters v hostile fleets about work. I would however like to see something that makes them better in fighter to fighter combat.
Posted by: Andrew
« on: September 02, 2011, 04:36:15 AM »


Do fighters need a conceptual overhaul?
I would say no. Fighters are just very small spacecraft . The difference between then and normal ships is the difference between a Motor Torpedo Boat and a Battleship , not the difference between an F-18 and an Aircraft carrier. This arguement keeps coming round and I have yet to hear a good explanation about why fighters should be different from ships. For Beam fighters that means they will not be effective against ships , they are simply a bad idea .
Posted by: voknaar
« on: September 01, 2011, 09:22:17 PM »

The only use beam armed fighters have to me would be against fleets that have expended their defencive and offensive missile stocks, as a clean up crew to run & gun them down. As such only a small number would be used.
Posted by: Thiosk
« on: August 31, 2011, 12:55:35 PM »

Not by much.  Yes armor does get lighter, but not much else does.  Really the only other relevent tech the can help with hull space useage in a fighter is fire control.  Even that doesn't have much wiggle room. 

This is a thing: I always thought of a fighter as a guy (or girl, or wormlike alien) who pointed their fighter at something and pulls the trigger-- so the pilot IS the fire control...

Do fighters need a conceptual overhaul?  I have always felt that the best counter for fighters should be fighters, so fighter ECM should dramatically increase in effectiveness to protect against missiles and ships, but that shouldn't effect fighter on fighter combat.  But if we made them much more effective at short ranges... I don't know that the AI could handle it too well.  As it stands, im just going to use them as glorified planetary defense squadrons and intense strike groups.
Posted by: Charlie Beeler
« on: August 31, 2011, 08:33:35 AM »

I was primarily commenting on the fact that, as your tech progresses, you'll be able to carry a larger number of GC fighters in each hanger deck. I fail to see the relevance of the tech cost.
Not by much.  Yes armor does get lighter, but not much else does.  Really the only other relevent tech the can help with hull space useage in a fighter is fire control.  Even that doesn't have much wiggle room.  Keep in mind that a single hanger is limited to a capacity of 1000t(20hull spaces).  Yes, you can build a carrier with more hangers to support the increased number of fighters. 

Quote
The comparison to a full sized system isn't completely accurate, either, as a full sized system will get only a single burst, while the fighters can get in multiple, the exact amount depending on the enemy's reload speed.
No it's not accurate.  I only did an off the cuff hs usage comparison.  The accuracy comparison is actually worse, the .5hs GC is 1/12th the size of the full size system and 1/20 as accurate.  The real point is that logistics side increases at a higher rate to field enough fighters with the reduced systems to equal to potential of the full size system. 

For agruements sake assume that it takes a 500t fighter to field a 6hs GC and 125t fighter to field a .5hs GC.  Assuming a carrier with only 1 hanger you can field 2 500t fighters or 8 125t fighters.  The larger fighters are fielding 12hs of weapons and the light fighter are only fielding 4hs of weapons.  To make matters worse there is a much lower damage potential in the smaller fighters for the same hanger capacity.  You need 3x the hanger capacity too field the same weapons hs and 5x to field the same damage potential.

Quote
Sure, fighters in an anti-missile role can be countered in numerous ways (ECM, armor, faster), but all of the counters result in weaker warheads hitting your ships.
Tech, counter tech doesn't always result in weaker hits.  It's also a recursive loop argument.

Quote
And once you get to the end game engines/BFC, the fighters will almost match their full sized counterparts in a strict PD role simply because they have twice the tracking speed for their BFC and weapon.
Max tech arguments are also pointless.


This has really drifted from the OP's question.  No matter what beam system you place in a fighter it has to survive to attack range, in the current Aurora environment this is a low order probability. 
Posted by: Peter Rhodan
« on: August 31, 2011, 03:23:17 AM »

Missiles are still better than any of these options - improve you missile tech and ordenance production rate :)

My new Mk IV AMM corvette has 6 launchers and 3 MFCs (372 missiles)- can see and hit a fighter at 10mK and can  engage 3 targets with 2 missiles on each every 5 second pulse.... you a going to need a LOT of fighters to get anywhere near beam range of 6 of these things -