Author Topic: Early Warships  (Read 5763 times)

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Offline coco146 (OP)

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Early Warships
« on: December 29, 2012, 08:50:49 AM »
I've begun building building my first proper fleet:

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Ark Royal-I class Carrier    18,000 tons     280 Crew     2188.4 BP      TCS 360  TH 1260  EM 0
3500 km/s     Armour 2-61     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 8     PPV 0
Maint Life 2.28 Years     MSP 608    AFR 324%    IFR 4.5%    1YR 159    5YR 2378    Max Repair 63 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Flight Crew Berths 0   
Hangar Deck Capacity 8000 tons     Magazine 425   

126 EP Ion Drive (10)    Power 126    Fuel Use 71.17%    Signature 126    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1,700,000 Litres    Range 23.9 billion km   (78 days at full power)

ASM-I "Supernova" (106)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   End: 44.5m    Range: 48.1m km   WH: 6    Size: 4    TH: 138/82/41

Strike Group
18x Viper-I Fighter-bomber   Speed: 6279 km/s    Size: 8.6

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

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Trafalgar-I class Missile Destroyer    9,000 tons     263 Crew     1544.4 BP      TCS 180  TH 756  EM 0
4200 km/s     Armour 4-38     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 6     PPV 50
Maint Life 4.6 Years     MSP 644    AFR 108%    IFR 1.5%    1YR 49    5YR 742    Max Repair 180 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 220   

126 EP Ion Drive (6)    Power 126    Fuel Use 71.17%    Signature 126    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1,000,000 Litres    Range 28.1 billion km   (77 days at full power)

Size 5 Missile Launcher (10)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 30
Missile Fire Control FC43-R100 (2)     Range 43.2m km    Resolution 100
ASM-5 Sunburn (40)  Speed: 21,600 km/s   End: 74.2m    Range: 96.2m km   WH: 6    Size: 5    TH: 115/69/34

Active Search Sensor MR144-R100 (1)     GPS 18000     Range 144.0m km    Resolution 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

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Viper-I class Fighter-bomber    430 tons     14 Crew     85 BP      TCS 8.6  TH 54  EM 0
6279 km/s     Armour 1-5     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 1     PPV 1.8
Maint Life 61.34 Years     MSP 124    AFR 1%    IFR 0%    1YR 0    5YR 1    Max Repair 18 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 3   
Magazine 12   

18 EP Ion Drive (3)    Power 18    Fuel Use 218.25%    Signature 18    Exp 15%
Fuel Capacity 10,000 Litres    Range 1.9 billion km   (3 days at full power)

ASM Launch Rails (3)    Missile Size 4    Hangar Reload 30 minutes    MF Reload 5 hours
Missile Fire Control FC43-R100 (1)     Range 43.2m km    Resolution 100
ASM-I "Supernova" (3)  Speed: 18,000 km/s   End: 44.5m    Range: 48.1m km   WH: 6    Size: 4    TH: 138/82/41

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Fighter for production, combat and maintenance purposes

I have two carriers and I plan to build 4 destroyers and also design an AMM destroyer and a jump capable ship, any advice?
 

Offline Jumpp

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2013, 11:02:01 AM »
Since that carrier is going to be traveling with those missile destroyers, it's best if they're equally fast.  With the carrier being exactly twice the size of the destroyer, that's easy to manage.  You just have to give it exactly twice as many of the same engine--so maybe add two to the carrier or pull one from the destroyer.

It's also worth going with fewer, bigger engines instead of a big cluster of small ones.  I bet those 126-EP drives are 1.05 engine power, fuel consumption 0.7, and size 10HS?  So your carrier is packing 5,000 tons of engine and with 1,700 tons of fuel has a range of 24 billion km.  Instead try a 634.8-EP engine (46HS, power mod 1.15).  Two of those on the carrier will give you the same speed and range (slightly better, actually: 3527 speed and 25.2 billion km range) for only 4,600 tons of engine and 1,350 tons of fuel.  You'll be a lot more fuel-efficient and save 750 tons besides.

I'd put one of that same engine on the various carrier escorts, provided that they're exactly half the carrier's size.


 

Offline coco146 (OP)

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2013, 11:41:30 AM »
Thanks, I'll try that when I get back to my computer.

 

Offline Marski

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2013, 11:59:16 AM »
In your Missile Destroyer design, the missile guidance systems have shorter ranger than the missiles it's supposed to be firing.
 

Offline coco146 (OP)

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2013, 09:37:59 AM »
Won't that make me very susceptible to the effects of ECM?
 

Offline Marski

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2013, 11:03:15 AM »
Won't that make me very susceptible to the effects of ECM?
With that design you'll be forced to fight practically on point-blank range, I seriously recommend upgrading your guidance systems to have atleast 120-130 million kilometer range for newer missile designs.
 

Offline coco146 (OP)

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2013, 02:30:05 PM »
Sorry didn't realize that I was using my fighter FC.
 

Offline coco146 (OP)

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 03:56:36 PM »
Okay, that game didn't work, new game so far 2 main combat ships plus a couple of obsoletes that were only produced in limited number.

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Broadsword Mod2 class Missile Destroyer    4,000 tons     128 Crew     584 BP      TCS 80  TH 180  EM 0
2250 km/s     Armour 2-22     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 2     PPV 30
Maint Life 4.46 Years     MSP 182    AFR 64%    IFR 0.9%    1YR 15    5YR 222    Max Repair 52 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 90   

60 EP Ion Drive (3)    Power 60    Fuel Use 85.5%    Signature 60    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 550,000 Litres    Range 28.9 billion km   (148 days at full power)

Type 53 ASM Tube (6)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 50
Missile Fire Control FC25-R100 (1)     Range 25.2m km    Resolution 100
ASM-3 "Shimmer" (18)  Speed: 25,200 km/s   End: 38.4m    Range: 58.1m km   WH: 4    Size: 5    TH: 84/50/25

Active Search Sensor MR42-R100 (1)     GPS 5250     Range 42.0m km    Resolution 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

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Trafalgar Mod1 class Missile Destroyer    7,500 tons     216 Crew     1054.5 BP      TCS 150  TH 360  EM 0
2400 km/s     Armour 3-34     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 4     PPV 50
Maint Life 4.68 Years     MSP 351    AFR 112%    IFR 1.6%    1YR 26    5YR 393    Max Repair 52 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Spare Berths 4   
Magazine 200   

60 EP Ion Drive (6)    Power 60    Fuel Use 85.5%    Signature 60    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1,150,000 Litres    Range 32.3 billion km   (155 days at full power)

Type 53 ASM Tube (10)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 50
Missile Fire Control FC25-R100 (1)     Range 25.2m km    Resolution 100
ASM-3 "Shimmer" (40)  Speed: 25,200 km/s   End: 38.4m    Range: 58.1m km   WH: 4    Size: 5    TH: 84/50/25

Active Search Sensor MR42-R100 (1)     GPS 5250     Range 42.0m km    Resolution 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

I currently have 6 of each.  I also have a Cruiser design which hasn't begun construction yet:

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Iron Duke class Missile Cruiser    10,000 tons     261 Crew     1309.5 BP      TCS 200  TH 540  EM 0
2700 km/s     Armour 4-41     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 68.3
Maint Life 2.55 Years     MSP 246    AFR 266%    IFR 3.7%    1YR 53    5YR 794    Max Repair 52 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 6 months    Spare Berths 0   
Magazine 250   

60 EP Ion Drive (9)    Power 60    Fuel Use 85.5%    Signature 60    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 1,200,000 Litres    Range 25.3 billion km   (108 days at full power)

Single R1.5/C1 Meson Cannon Turret (2x1)    Range 15,000km     TS: 10000 km/s     Power 3-1     RM 1.5    ROF 15        1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Fire Control S01.5 15-1250 (1)    Max Range: 30,000 km   TS: 1250 km/s     67 33 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Pebble Bed Reactor Technology PB-1 (1)     Total Power Output 3    Armour 0    Exp 5%

Type 53 ASM Tube (10)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 50
Size 5 Box Launcher (10)    Missile Size 5    Hangar Reload 37.5 minutes    MF Reload 6.2 hours
Missile Fire Control FC25-R100 (1)     Range 25.2m km    Resolution 100
ASM-3 "Shimmer" (50)  Speed: 25,200 km/s   End: 38.4m    Range: 58.1m km   WH: 4    Size: 5    TH: 84/50/25

Active Search Sensor MR42-R100 (1)     GPS 5250     Range 42.0m km    Resolution 100

Missile to hit chances are vs targets moving at 3000 km/s, 5000 km/s and 10,000 km/s

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes

I'm not so sure about the meson turrets on the cruiser but I don't really have the resources to build a dedicated PD ship.
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 05:32:56 PM »
I would say that they can work, though I spoted some strange things.

The Iron Duke has a FC with a tracking speed of 1250... I think you did something wrong when you designed that one and just missed it.

Over all I think your ships might be a bit slow for Ion tech. In general I view each engine tech with a standard engine at 25% of the ships total weight to be the base line speed of ships. For Ion tech this should be 3000km/s. In my opinion most ships military combat ships engines should be between 25-33% of their hull space. If you go lower you should increase the power multiplier to compensate some to get at least to the techs base speed.

This is obviously not law or anything, just what I prefer. ;)

When it comes to point defense then Meson cannons are usually regarded as a good choice as are Lasers and Gauss cannons. If you play against the AI I doubt that they use armored missiles which is where Lasers and Mesons shine the best. Gauss cannons need at least three shots to be better than a laser on the PD duty. Lasers are also good because they have much greater range and can be doubled as anti-ship weapons as well. Gauss cannons are not as good and Meason have relatively lousy range in the early tech eras, but otherwise are good in combat.

When I create a point defense turret of Lasers (which are the same wight as a Mesons) I always put them in quad mounts. In general, when looking at the cost, fire controls are very expensive. I usually view two quad PD turrets (or one Gauss in quad) to be an effective PD system over all. They should have about 50% chance to bring down a same tech missile per shot.
The total weitght with a lased PD defence battery on my ships are generally about 1200 tons and have the potential to shoot down on average about 4 missiles at a reasonable cost in production.

In general Gauss guns are much better as you go forward as PD on your ships and don't neglect CIWS systems either. I always put one or more CIWS on bigger ships such as ships above 10000 tons. As far as my experience goes the AI don't use armoured missiles (but don't quote me on that) and as such Gauss guns is the best final defense PD system you can have.

You might also look at you engine design. Can you make them bigger and save on better fuel efficiency. There might also be different opinions on the amount of fuel you should keep on your ships. I generally don't keep more than around 20 billion range on my bigger capital ships and slightly less on my escorts. I rather keep the tanks on civilian tankers. around 20 billion range is enough for battle maneuvers most of the time. It would also save you some space for more combat goodness. ;)

Another thing I note was your lack of armour on your ships. I never launch combat ships with less than four amour strips unless it is a very small escort or scout, then it is a minimum three layers of armour. A cruiser with less than five armour is rather weak too. That is the type of armour I put on destroyers at about 6000-10000 tons, Cruisers get more.
I always find this worth wile unless you intend to totally smother the enemy with AMM and never close to beam combat, then you might be able to afford low armour on your combat ships.
 

Offline coco146 (OP)

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 06:16:30 PM »
Looks like I made a few oversights regarding FC on the Iron Duke, I reckon I might scrap the Trafalgars and the Broadswords and go with an updated version of the Iron Duke, I think I might remove the mesons in favor of greater engine power, and I think I might try to get a dedicated Anti-Missile ship.  I have pretty poor tech ATM.
 

Offline Anarade Relle

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2013, 09:00:10 PM »
Probably faster to just upgrade. Ripping out the old FC and putting in a new one, especially if you manufacture the new FC's with your factories, will take only a few months at the maximum. In any case don't scrap until you have replacements.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 09:02:36 PM by Powergirl »
 

Offline Icecoon

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2013, 02:37:43 AM »

You might also look at you engine design. Can you make them bigger and save on better fuel efficiency.

Yes, those engines need upgrade. 60 EP on Ion tech is a little bit low. In my game i prefer two engine types for my warships. A 10 HS medium military engine for the survey ships and warships under 10kt and a 20 HS Capital Ship Engine for those big guys. For instance that medium drive has 102 EP and that big one has 204 EP.

Edit: On a 13000t ship i have four of the big ones and they give the ship a decent speed of 3060 km/s with the range of around 30b with 1m litres of fuel
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 02:41:17 AM by Icecoon »
If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid.


If fire fighters fight fire and crime fighters fight crime, what do freedom fighters fight?
 

Offline coco146 (OP)

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2013, 03:19:54 AM »
I'm afraid 1250 is the best tracking speed I have and I can't seem to design AMMs with any meaningful chance to hit targets, so not sure what to do there.  I can upgrade the Trafalgar class but the broadsword does not really have the weight of fire I'm looking for, unless I use them for defense of extra solar colonies?

Here's the Black Prince Cruiser.  More Armour and I sacrificed the Mesons for greater speed and a slightly bigger first strike:
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Black Prince class Cruiser    10,000 tons     241 Crew     1363.5 BP      TCS 200  TH 630  EM 0
3150 km/s     Armour 5-41     Shields 0-0     Sensors 8/8/0/0     Damage Control Rating 3     PPV 60.5
Maint Life 1.96 Years     MSP 256    AFR 266%    IFR 3.7%    1YR 87    5YR 1312    Max Repair 84 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 3 months    Spare Berths 1   
Magazine 270   

126 EP Ion Drive, Heavy Military (5)    Power 126    Fuel Use 71.17%    Signature 126    Exp 10%
Fuel Capacity 950,000 Litres    Range 24.0 billion km   (88 days at full power)

Type 53 ASM Tube (10)    Missile Size 5    Rate of Fire 50
Size 5 Box Launcher (14)    Missile Size 5    Hangar Reload 37.5 minutes    MF Reload 6.2 hours
Missile Fire Control FC70-R100 (1)     Range 70.6m km    Resolution 100
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 03:33:22 AM by coco146 »
 

Offline Black

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2013, 04:03:37 AM »
You can increase the size of energy weapons fire control to get better range or tracking speed. With ion tech you should be able to get decent AMM. Just be sure to use increased power, fuel consumption will be high, but you don't really need long range AMM as you will be limited by your sensors detection range.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 04:10:49 AM by Black »
 

Offline Jorgen_CAB

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Re: Early Warships
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2013, 05:19:58 AM »
As with everything else in this game there is always priorities to be made.

If your tracking technology is lousy compared to the missiles you think you will face then you need to prioritize. In my experience it is faster but more expensive resource wise to start develop a good AMM before good beam PD. The reason are that AMM only need one extra research which is missile agility in addition to the research you will be doing for your anti-ship missiles. Missiles can be built separately or in parallel with your ships in shipyards.
For beam PD to be effective you generally need allot in terms of hull space and the initial cost is more expensive and take more time than building decent AMM ships. But when you look further down the line beam PD will be much more economical, but only in enough quantity.

In your case I would develop a decent AMM by researching missile agility and better engine power modification.

Also remember that when you design the beam PD fire-control you must increase the tracking speed to maximum (4x). In your case a base 1250km/s tracking speed would translate into a tracking speed of that fire control of 5000km/s (not very impressive for Ion tech engines).

In the beginning of an empires development you will need to specialize your technology and try to capitalize on what you have. You can't really afford being decent in several areas.

Everyone has their own path to success and mine are specialization on construction/production techs early on and rely on small defensive ship designs. There is almost no chance to perform offensive actions early in the game and gain much, unless you face a truly weak opponent. The logistic to feed an invasion fleet is huge, not to mention troops you will need to conquer anything.
I never construct real warships until I can produce decent sized and equipped warships, for me that is 10-20k ton minimum for a main line combat ship. It has to be able to be both offensive and defensive. My design philosophy of any cruiser is that they must be able to defend against their own destructive capacity with a slight margin. Pure offence/defence is left for the small ships, such as missile boats, frigates and destroyers.

Something that I find very important to prioritise in the beginning to make decent attack/defence platforms are "Maximum engine power modification" and "Fuel efficiency". Being able to attack and engage your missiles at a greater range than the enemy is the only way to stay on top against someone stronger than you. You need to operate the ships under the protection of planetary defence complexes.

Once you start building proper ships and take the war to an enemy you will need much better technology or I find the effort a little underwhelming in performance. In general I feel that I need about three-four tech levels of research done in all basic techs in order to have ships perform well. Such as engine, power modification, fuel efficiency, some beam weapon, gauss cannons, turret gearing, tracking speed, EM sensor, Thermal sensor, Active strength, armour, missile warhead, missile agility and shields.
Therefore concentrating on missiles and engines in the early game make this list much shorter but are mainly good for defending your main worlds and colonies.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 05:44:30 AM by Jorgen_CAB »