Aurora 4x
C# Aurora => Development Discussions => Topic started by: Steve Walmsley on January 01, 2020, 11:15:44 AM
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I just realised that I haven't coded the option to use pre-built components when building a ship. I was about to start fixing that when I considered not having that option at all. It makes the game more challenging and require more forward planning.
Interested in feedback on that idea.
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Wouldn't this prevent you from incorporating salvaged and excavated alien components? If so, I'm agin it.
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I think this game _is_ about (roleplaying) forward planning. The more the better!
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I never really cared for it for that reason, and don't use it (it's also more micromanagement). So I approve of not having the option.
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to speak only for myself I would code the possibility use pre-build components into C# - everyone who does not want to use the feature can ignore it, who wants to use it can use it still...
I have played games were I forgot about the feature as well as games I used it...
also, as the question about salvaged ship componets shows, the feature would have to be implemented as far as using salvaged components are involved - so I think/hope it does not add a lot of coding to implement...
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also, as the question about salvaged ship componets shows, the feature would have to be implemented as far as using salvaged components are involved - so I think/hope it does not add a lot of coding to implement...
Unless I remove components from ruins as well and instead add 'blueprints' that would provide research points in the same way as wreck salvage. The components are generally scrapped for tech anyway so this just reduces micromanagement. Instead of physical components, you would learn how to build your own.
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also, as the question about salvaged ship componets shows, the feature would have to be implemented as far as using salvaged components are involved - so I think/hope it does not add a lot of coding to implement...
Unless I remove components from ruins as well and instead add 'blueprints' that would provide research points in the same way as wreck salvage. The components are generally scrapped for tech anyway so this just reduces micromanagement. Instead of physical components, you would learn how to build your own.
Will research progress be universal/shared between planets in C#? It was an important reason to have components instead of just research progress from ruins in VB Aurora.
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Against; as has already been stated, if people find this makes things easier, then they are free not to use it. However, for those who want to, it is a useful feature.
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I would love to continue to have the option of prebuilt and salvaged components in ships. The role-play of being able to have a ramshackle ship built of scavenged weapons and components And the practical aspects of having FACs buildkits or scouts in a box where every you have an appropriate shipyard. I would definitely miss these possibilities
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i liked that you could ship components instead of minerals, made colonies more useful and added flavour to them, if having them on planets is to convenient maybe require a freighter to move them into the shipyard
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While I very, very, very rarely use the feature myself, I'd appreciate it being coded into C# Aurora. More options, the better. Plus, I do want to build a one-off special ship using alien components in my C# campaigns too.
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A few (scattered) thoughts.
1) I've never made much use of it myself, tbh. I generally find my shipyard space is more abundant than my factory space. But then, I'm a relative newbie who hasn't gotten all that deep into the game before.
2) It seems odd to me that they're a way of moving production from a shipyard into a construction factory. On principle, shipyard-made components appeal to me more than factory-made, but I can't think of any way to balance a shipyard producing components instead (it'd sort of make a mockery of the size limits in practice).
3) I like the idea of using components to speed up production, if only because it's a worthwhile usage for salvaged/scrapped ships. I don't know if there's a reasonable way to do this without just keeping the current system, though.
4) For salvaging alien wrecks, "blueprints" work just fine. To avoid the headache of needing to move it around (or to share research), maybe make it something like a 50% cost reduction to the appropriate tech, perhaps.
5) I see why people say "throw it in, people can just choose not to use it", but that seems to ignore the cost of you needing to code it in. If it's a ten-minute job then fine, but if it's a bigger feature(which I assume it is, if it hasn't been done in the years you've been working on this), then it doesn't strike me as a high priority. Perhaps add it in a later version, if that's the main reason.
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1) I like the idea of transitioning alien tech over to blueprints rather than components. It never really made sense to me that alien tech components could be integrated wholesale into a human-designed ships.
2) I too like the idea of building components separately from ships which then could be shipped rather than the minerals. I could easily envision having an industrial Mars or Earth build components then shipped to a Luna shipping yard for final assembly.
3) That being said, I also echo the previous poster that talked about coding difficulty. I think there comes a point where the complexity might be too much and being a coding ignorant person, I imagine it would be difficult/complex to code the necessary conditions for the AI to effectively use. This is a bit of abstraction - i.e not having prebuilt components - which I could easily live with especially if it meant more time spent on features which I do really want like the ground combat, NPR invasions, and the diplomacy system.
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While I usually break components down for research, some of my most beloved designs incorporated alien components that I would never have built that way. Playing as a scavenging civilisation with little real R&D of their own was awesome. Making use of superior captured equipment makes for very good war stories.
I'd be sad to see this aspect go. Aurora is at its best when it throws you something odd, be it disaster or opportunity. Forcing the player into a predictable long-term plan streamlines some of the life away.
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I think the general consensus is leave it in, so I will start coding :)
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Yeah, I vote leave it in too.
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I've added a check box to the Class window which toggles if you want to include alien tech in your designs. If so, any component that is currently stockpiled at any of your populations will be available for class design.
When you create a shipyard task, any components in your stockpile will be used to reduce the cost and mineral requirements of the task. This is mandatory for alien components, but using your own components is optional (new for C#) and you can turn that off if desired (to save components for the most important ships).
You can retool shipyards to any design, regardless of whether you currently have the components, but you can only build or refit a ship if the required components are at the same population as the shipyard. Note this gives you an ability to create a modified version of a captured alien design, using some of your own tech, and then tool a shipyard for that design even though you don't have stockpiled components for all components in your hybrid design. In this case, you won't be able to build a ship of that design, but you will be able to refit the captured alien ship to the new design (because the refit only adds your tech).
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Will I still be able to scrap my own ships for components? When I tear down an old, slow battleship can I save its secondary armament turrets for use on my cruisers? What about recycling CIWS through my auxiliary fleet, or even re-using old-tech jump drives from my DDLs in new tugs or troop transports?
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Will I still be able to scrap my own ships for components? When I tear down an old, slow battleship can I save its secondary armament turrets for use on my cruisers? What about recycling CIWS through my auxiliary fleet, or even re-using old-tech jump drives from my DDLs in new tugs or troop transports?
Yes, you can still do that.
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Will the yards remember which components they took from stockpile, so I can get them back if I cancel the build halfway through? (In VB Aurora, I seem to recall a number of terraforming modules disappearing on me for that reason.)
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Thanks very much Steve. I too like to be able building components separately from ships. It has a variety of uses.
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Will the yards remember which components they took from stockpile, so I can get them back if I cancel the build halfway through? (In VB Aurora, I seem to recall a number of terraforming modules disappearing on me for that reason.)
The components are consumed when you create the task and the task is shortened to account for that.
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I think it will be great, if any alien ship and/or component will have some penalties, reflecting unfamiliar control systems or even incompatibilities with your race/nation standarts, that can be reduced by refitting with mixed design.
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While I do not use to pre-build components that often in my multi-faction campaigns it was regularly used to reflect war production as some part if the regular industry switched to build components so ships could be build allot faster. So I say it is a great role-play tool. Using industry to build components are not really optimal, but you can feel forced to do it if you are forced into a war and you have limited shipyard capacity but a very strong industry.
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Component construction also becomes more available as construction factories become more capable. At the base 10BP per year production speed you are basically always trying to catch up with population growth and getting enough personnel demanding facilities in place to tap that resource fully because your production speed at best increases by 8% per year on average, but most likely a fair bit lower because you need mines to supply the minerals needed for that growth as well as other facilities, so you are most likely growing 1 to 4% per year in construction capacity. Population growth will notably exceed this during most starts.
By the time you hit 20BP per year you are probably matching or catching up to population growth, in part because unless you are constantly expanding at least some of your settled bodies will slow their own population growth and when you hit 30BP per year you'll start exceeding growth speeds even under unfavourable mineral conditions, so at that point not dedicating some of your production capacity to component construction or things that are not solely focused on fueling your construction economy results in wasted production capacity.
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The decision is already made, so this is not to sway any minds, but just wanted to say, that I'm really happy to see that using pre-built components will have a place in C# as I use it a lot. It makes building larger ships more feasible without waiting years and years to use them. Some times the retooling and build times are so long, that my new ships are close to outdated by the time they are build. Using pre-built component is really useful here.
I also find that there is an interesting decision to make; whether to delay access to a new fleet or to sacrifice industry to speed up constructing time by building components, which in turn actually encourages forward planning.
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Echoing Smoelf's sentiment, I agree that pre-building components is a really neat thing that I use a lot. I definitely am glad it's staying in.
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Note this gives you an ability to create a modified version of a captured alien design, using some of your own tech, and then tool a shipyard for that design even though you don't have stockpiled components for all components in your hybrid design. In this case, you won't be able to build a ship of that design, but you will be able to refit the captured alien ship to the new design (because the refit only adds your tech).
Astounding !
Thanks a lot Steve.
it will entice us to capture enemy ships to be able to use them later.
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And on the subject of being challenging not having it: Yes, proper usage of prebuilding components is definitely very strong and allows, and said proper usage does require more micro, but the greatest gains require the least of it. But at the same time making effective use of it also has the issue of foresight: It's very easy to overproduce, and if you do you are left with a number of obsolete components and your only recourse is to scrap them at a net loss. Similarly, it also incentives much heavier standardization in components than might be the strict optimum if not considering the production lines in question.
It's a powerful tool, but I don't quite feel it's outright overpowered, and the efficiency gains have a strongly marginally decreasing benefit, so I don't feel it overly rewards micro (by Aurora standards).
On the note of personal usage, I generally just use it build a few of the biggest components of my ships (generally the "standard heavy civilian engine" that my freighters and other large civilian vessels use and a few high cost military parts for military ships I deploy in some quantity), because beyond that it takes a lot of effort to set up for very little extra gain.
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I was wondering if it would be possible to somehow note which components, either in stock or in a design, are alien components? There have certainly been times I would have found that useful.
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I've always had a stockpile of components, usually outdated engines from retrofits. Came in handy in one run where I had to get ships pronto but lacked the gallicite for engines, so I created a "ersatz" ship design that employed those old engines.