Author Topic: Boarding vs Shields  (Read 9603 times)

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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Boarding vs Shields
« on: October 31, 2021, 08:12:21 AM »
I made a comment in my last campaign update about shields preventing boarding, as I thought that was the case and I already coded it. After a couple of people mentioned they weren't aware of that, I checked the code and found no restrictions on shields :)

So now I'm starting this thread to debate whether I should code it. I'm open to any opinions on the subject.

If it is added, one consideration would be whether shields at a very low percentage of maximum would still prevent boarding.
 
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Offline DeMatt

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2021, 08:39:22 AM »
One idea might be that, when a boarding ship goes to unload its marines, the shields apply damage to the boarder - 1 point of shields = 1 point of damage.  If the shields run out before the boarder gets destroyed, proceed with boarding;  if not, no boarding.  Then the marines can go about their business now that they're on the target's hull, with no further interaction with the target's shields.

Gives you a reason to armour your boarders.
 
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Offline Garfunkel

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2021, 09:16:01 AM »
I'd like shields to prevent boarding until they are at very low strength, that way shield regeneration doesn't instantly neutralize boarding attempts.

 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2021, 09:24:02 AM »
It might make sense to have shields act as a modifier to the default boarding %chance of success which already exists due to the speed difference between ships, or more precisely as an alternate mechanic which works in the same way. So if the enemy ship has shields at 100% strength then it will repulse all boarding attempts effectively, but at 10% strength a boarding attack can expect to take about 10% casualties (separate from casualties suffered due to speed difference). We can also have an exception once shield strength is 10% or lower similar to how boarding speed difference causes no casualties once the difference exceeds 10x.

My only issue with this idea is that it means weak low-tech shields are just as effective as big high-tech shields, although the lower regeneration rate of low-tech shields partially counters this. However I think any other method of calculation would require basically hardcoding against an arbitrary "100%" value which seems even less sensible.
 
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Offline nakorkren

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2021, 10:25:47 AM »
I see a few major concerns with shields impacting the ability to board that need to be addressed by any solution.

First, the facts that shields recharge at least a few points fairly quickly means that a simple shields up equals no boarding type rule would make it almost impossible to get the timing right and effectively preclude real boarding.

Second, if the rule is based on percentage of shields, even a small shield generator will prevent boarding from occurring, and a very small shield generator will actually be more effective at that, because the percentage will increase faster since the recharge rate is fixed and the capacity is small. In theory, the minimum size shield generator would be ideal for preventing boarding.

As a result I think the best solution is that a boarding attempt functions somewhat like ramming, where the boarding ship would take damage and the target ships shield would be consumed. The question then is is it one to one shield to damage, or some ratio. I think this solution works well because it makes it harder to board ships with larger shields, and easier to board ships with smaller shields, reduces but does not eliminate the question of timing the boarding, and still incentivizes using weapons to reduce the shield before attempting to board. One possible caveat is that damage should probably be distributed across the boarding fleet evenly, so you can't just include a single large and heavily armored ship in your boarding party to absorb the damage.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2021, 11:50:05 AM »
First, the facts that shields recharge at least a few points fairly quickly means that a simple shields up equals no boarding type rule would make it almost impossible to get the timing right and effectively preclude real boarding.

Requiring a minimum of 10% or even 20% strength would mitigate this problem. I would expect this minimum to be with respect to the total shields of the class, not the surviving shield generators, so if you shoot out one or two before boarding it will be even less difficult - exactly the same as shooting out a few engines to improve the speed advantage of your boarding shuttle.

Quote
Second, if the rule is based on percentage of shields, even a small shield generator will prevent boarding from occurring, and a very small shield generator will actually be more effective at that, because the percentage will increase faster since the recharge rate is fixed and the capacity is small. In theory, the minimum size shield generator would be ideal for preventing boarding.

Is this really a problem? I'm not sure that using the minimum size (i.e., least efficient, because shields scale superlinearly with generator size) type of shield generator just to prevent boarding, which is usually not the major mode of ship-to-ship combat, would be a good plan even if it does work. And it doesn't work as well as you'd think, because shield recharge rate also scales with the size of the generator so while a weaker shield does recharge faster it is recharging significantly less actual shield points per increment than a large shield which makes it even worse for everything that is not repulsing boarders. Basically, if you want to use very poor shields for the sole purpose of repelling boarders at the expense of ship-to-ship combat ability, I don't see why this is a bad thing to allow a player to choose?

Quote
As a result I think the best solution is that a boarding attempt functions somewhat like ramming, where the boarding ship would take damage and the target ships shield would be consumed. The question then is is it one to one shield to damage, or some ratio. I think this solution works well because it makes it harder to board ships with larger shields, and easier to board ships with smaller shields, reduces but does not eliminate the question of timing the boarding, and still incentivizes using weapons to reduce the shield before attempting to board. One possible caveat is that damage should probably be distributed across the boarding fleet evenly, so you can't just include a single large and heavily armored ship in your boarding party to absorb the damage.

Mechanically I do not like this idea, because to me it sounds like adding micromanagement and not simply another factor to consider. Boarding shuttles are not often very durable ships, so having them take damage from a boarding attempt is likely to cause internal damage or destruction quite often. This becomes problematic because it leaves you with not enough troop transport capacity to recover your troops, especially if you want to do more boarding attempts, scuttle the captured ship, etc. but your transports have been destroyed from bashing onto shields. I think it is better for the risks to be assumed by the boarding marines rather than the transport, as even if the marines take heavy losses they can be recovered after the battle is finished with minimal fuss (it is just giving one more order and sending the transport home).
 

Offline Zincat

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2021, 11:56:32 AM »
In my opinion, shields should absolutely stop boarding. That is a "realistic" consideration, and it also adds meaningful choices when deciding how to approach boarding. How do I design my boarding ships, from which distance shall I launch the shuttles etc. After all, I have to ensure that the shields are down when the shuttles arrive.

As for how, shields should probably work until they go below a certain percentage, say 15-20%. It feels like a decent compromise to avoid excessive micromanagement.

An alternative idea could be that a ship remains "vulnerable" to boarding for a few 5-second turns after a shield has been brought to 0, to simulate a shield "reforming". But I find it more questionable than just having a ship being vulnerable below 20% shields or similar.
 

Offline Lord Solar

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2021, 12:08:08 PM »
I don't think that shields should prevent boarding at all. In general in C# shields are much more preferred than armor without this change (eg regeneration). In most sci fi anyways shields only block fast moving objects or high energy impacts not comparatively slow boarders.
In terms of balance I think it is more worthwhile to consider defenders getting countermeasures of some kind while boarders are planting breaching charges through armor.
 

Offline Blogaugis

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2021, 12:27:52 PM »
Is there an in-game lore explanation on how shields work?
I suppose there can be a setting at the start of the game (shields stop boarding: yes/no), to keep all folks satisfied.

If I remember right, shields are a military component, which means that stations and commercial ships will remain vulnerable to boarding either way.
 

Offline Destragon

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2021, 01:21:47 PM »
If boarders are able to bypass shields, wouldn't that also mean that missiles could also bypass shields by reducing their speed on final approach to the target? I mean why would they stop missiles but not boarders?

Just a random idea, but maybe there could be a technology for shields that influences how effective they are against self-moving objects like boarders and missiles. Something like, your shields need to be reduced below X% of their max health before they let boarders/missiles through and that % can be reduced with higher tiers of that technology.
 
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Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2021, 01:52:59 PM »
If boarders are able to bypass shields, wouldn't that also mean that missiles could also bypass shields by reducing their speed on final approach to the target? I mean why would they stop missiles but not boarders?

Because missiles don't actually directly strike the target, they blow up close to the target and deal blast damage.

If missile actually struck their targets directly, they would not need to bother with a nuclear warhead as the pure kinetic energy of the impact will do the job. A size-1 missile moving at just 13,000 km/s carries as much kinetic energy as the largest nuclear bomb ever detonated (Tsar Bomba, 50 MT). While the units in Aurora are fairly abstracted, I feel fairly comfortable in saying that size-1 missiles in Aurora do not generally deliver 50 MT of damage energy to their targets.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2021, 01:54:53 PM by nuclearslurpee »
 

Offline serger

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2021, 02:01:04 PM »
Because missiles don't actually directly strike the target, they blow up close to the target and deal blast damage.
Why then missile's damage pattern is so local? It's inconsistent.

If missile actually struck their targets directly, they would not need to bother with a nuclear warhead as the pure kinetic energy of the impact will do the job. A size-1 missile moving at just 13,000 km/s carries as much kinetic energy as the largest nuclear bomb ever detonated (Tsar Bomba, 50 MT). While the units in Aurora are fairly abstracted, I feel fairly comfortable in saying that size-1 missiles in Aurora do not generally deliver 50 MT of damage energy to their targets.
I think about it as missile blast is in real space, while TN ship is in Aether, and only a small portion of special blast-pomped impact can penetrate trans-dimentional barrier.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2021, 02:07:42 PM »
Because missiles don't actually directly strike the target, they blow up close to the target and deal blast damage.
Why then missile's damage pattern is so local? It's inconsistent.

Steve has said in another thread where the same topic came up that it is a compromise between mechanics and flavor.
 

Offline db48x

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2021, 02:23:26 PM »
The answer is obvious: the boarders land on the shield and use explosives to penetrate it just like they do the hull.
 
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Offline Black

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Re: Boarding vs Shields
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2021, 02:32:13 PM »
I like the idea that shields prevent boarding until they are reduced to some 10-15% of strength. It would also increase use of microwave weapons that could be used in support of the boarders to take down shields more quickly. And the Star Swarm already uses microwaves so they have access to tools that can help their boarders.