C# Aurora Changes Discussion

[Hazard]

Although only infantry units may participate in a boarding attempt, are non-infantry units capable of acting at all during boarding combat if a troop transport gets targeted for boarding?

And regarding surrender rules; I would say that non-combatant ships (civilian ships with not even self defense equipment) should surrender on boarding, armed merchant ships (ships with CIWS) and troop transport ships should surrender if the battle is clearly against them, possibly after at minimum 1 combat round to account for surprise and confusion, and military ships surrender when they are being overwhelmed.

All subject of course to the militancy and determination ratings of the race in question. A highly militant race might find non-combatant ships willing to go a couple of rounds of combat, while a high determination might find denying a ship and information to a race more valuable, especially if they're very xenophobic.

Diplomatic relations and reputation regarding POWs may change reactions to being boarded.

[Steve Walmsley]

Although only infantry units may participate in a boarding attempt, are non-infantry units capable of acting at all during boarding combat if a troop transport gets targeted for boarding?

They really would be unlucky - survive the boarding and realise you landed on a troop transport.

Theoretically, only infantry would take part. You can't really drive a tank along the corridors

[Kurt]

Although only infantry units may participate in a boarding attempt, are non-infantry units capable of acting at all during boarding combat if a troop transport gets targeted for boarding?

They really would be unlucky - survive the boarding and realise you landed on a troop transport.

Theoretically, only infantry would take part. You can't really drive a tank along the corridors

No, you can't drive a tank or fire artillery, but the tank drivers, commanders, and gun loaders/operators would likely have side-arms and would be a lot more capable of resistance than civilian passengers or crew. 

Kurt

[Whitecold]

One question regarding boarding combat: The defending ship will very likely be damaged to some extend, which means any troop bays may well have been damaged. Does this kill all the marines?
Logically any marines would be spread about the ship on combat stations, and should not be taken out by a single hit.

[Steve Walmsley]

Although only infantry units may participate in a boarding attempt, are non-infantry units capable of acting at all during boarding combat if a troop transport gets targeted for boarding?

They really would be unlucky - survive the boarding and realise you landed on a troop transport.

Theoretically, only infantry would take part. You can't really drive a tank along the corridors

No, you can't drive a tank or fire artillery, but the tank drivers, commanders, and gun loaders/operators would likely have side-arms and would be a lot more capable of resistance than civilian passengers or crew. 

Kurt

True, although I don't want to get into the detail of how many crew per vehicle, gun, etc. This is such an edge case though, it probably isn't worth coding anything detailed. Even if I just add 1 'driver' for a light vehicle, 2 for medium, 3 for large, etc and create a formation from them, I will then have to figure out how casualties affect the vehicles. I think for the sake of (relative) simplicity, non-infantry can't fight on ships.

[Steve Walmsley]

One question regarding boarding combat: The defending ship will very likely be damaged to some extend, which means any troop bays may well have been damaged. Does this kill all the marines?
Logically any marines would be spread about the ship on combat stations, and should not be taken out by a single hit.

Good point. Normally, a hit on a transport bay would cause casualties so I have coded an exception for the case where the damage is caused by collateral damage from boarding combat.

[Hazard]

Although only infantry units may participate in a boarding attempt, are non-infantry units capable of acting at all during boarding combat if a troop transport gets targeted for boarding?

They really would be unlucky - survive the boarding and realise you landed on a troop transport.

Theoretically, only infantry would take part. You can't really drive a tank along the corridors

Sure, but any members of the boarding party that enter the transport bays are probably going to get flattened by the concentrated firepower and lack a response.

The real trick would be how to simulate the response to there being heavy ordnance units on the ship and the boarding party's attempts to avoid them.

Just saying they're not involved would work fine with large ships, but a landing capable dropship probably can only be accessed through the troop transport bay anyway.

Eh, it's a difficult question that doesn't really come with easy answers. Just going with 'not involved' is fine. Trying to figure it out precisely is a head ache.

Good point. Normally, a hit on a transport bay would cause casualties so I have coded an exception for the case where the damage is caused by collateral damage from boarding combat.

A ship with marines should probably have those marines stationed throughout the ship anyway just as standard operating procedure.

[Scandinavian]

Sure, but any members of the boarding party that enter the transport bays are probably going to get flattened by the concentrated firepower and lack a response.

For lighter weapons, possibly, but then we get into the same trouble as with vehicle crew - you can probably unmount the machine gun from a technical relatively easily, but the integrated coaxial machine gun on a battle tank's turret... not so much.

For the heavier weapons, there's no reason to think that vehicles are transported with weapons loaded, or even with their ammunition in the same place as the vehicle body. And certainly not facing the right direction, or easily able to reorient themselves. Even if they were, there's no reason to think you'd want to fire one in a confined space like a starship interior.

[Whitecold]

One question regarding boarding combat: The defending ship will very likely be damaged to some extend, which means any troop bays may well have been damaged. Does this kill all the marines?
Logically any marines would be spread about the ship on combat stations, and should not be taken out by a single hit.

Good point. Normally, a hit on a transport bay would cause casualties so I have coded an exception for the case where the damage is caused by collateral damage from boarding combat.

I more meant before boarding actually starts. I would imagine marines being spread out already. Of course, you should not be able to spread out an entire division in the ship.

[Garfunkel]

Sure, but any members of the boarding party that enter the transport bays are probably going to get flattened by the concentrated firepower and lack a response.

For lighter weapons, possibly, but then we get into the same trouble as with vehicle crew - you can probably unmount the machine gun from a technical relatively easily, but the integrated coaxial machine gun on a battle tank's turret... not so much.

For the heavier weapons, there's no reason to think that vehicles are transported with weapons loaded, or even with their ammunition in the same place as the vehicle body. And certainly not facing the right direction, or easily able to reorient themselves. Even if they were, there's no reason to think you'd want to fire one in a confined space like a starship interior.

The integrated coaxial machine gun can actually be taken out in just a few minutes and operated manually, albeit in an awkward fashion. At least they can in Russian tanks, I don't have hands-on experience with Western tanks. But that's nitpicking, your point is valid. And I fully agree that while it would be damn cool to have a Kelly's Heroes moment of tank-fighting inside a huge troop ship, in our reality, transports - both sea and air - are loaded to the gills and vehicles (and heavy weapons if static) are impossible to move or turn around.

Since weapon and vehicle crews are not modelled, I agree with Hazard that Steve's choice of "not playing a part" is the best option at least for now. Boarding combat in troop ships will likely never happen, or only once in a blue moon, so it's not necessary - and if you want to model extensive boarding combat aboard a space station, for example, you can give your space marines (infantry) heavier weapons (crew-served anti-personnel etc) in addition to personal weapons. I know I'm going to want to re-create some of the insane boarding combats from John Ringo's and Ian Douglas' books.

[Steve Walmsley]

For example, you can give your space marines (infantry) heavier weapons (crew-served anti-personnel etc) in addition to personal weapons. I know I'm going to want to re-create some of the insane boarding combats from John Ringo's and Ian Douglas' books.

Yes, I am definitely going down the route of heavy powered armour and CAP with boarding capability. Go Space Marines!

[Ynglaur]

True, although I don't want to get into the detail of how many crew per vehicle, gun, etc. This is such an edge case though, it probably isn't worth coding anything detailed. Even if I just add 1 'driver' for a light vehicle, 2 for medium, 3 for large, etc and create a formation from them, I will then have to figure out how casualties affect the vehicles. I think for the sake of (relative) simplicity, non-infantry can't fight on ships.

Could you abstract it by adding to the "effective crew" count of the ship based on something dead simple, like tonnage?  I'm not very familiar with these mechanics, so apologies if it's a silly suggestion.

[Steve Walmsley]

True, although I don't want to get into the detail of how many crew per vehicle, gun, etc. This is such an edge case though, it probably isn't worth coding anything detailed. Even if I just add 1 'driver' for a light vehicle, 2 for medium, 3 for large, etc and create a formation from them, I will then have to figure out how casualties affect the vehicles. I think for the sake of (relative) simplicity, non-infantry can't fight on ships.

Could you abstract it by adding to the "effective crew" count of the ship based on something dead simple, like tonnage?  I'm not very familiar with these mechanics, so apologies if it's a silly suggestion.

Yes, I could do something on those lines. However, if any of those vehicle crews are killed, what happens to the vehicles?

[King-Salomon]

Yes, I could do something on those lines. However, if any of those vehicle crews are killed, what happens to the vehicles?

I would stay with the "easy" solution to ignore non-inf at the moment - it could be a point for a future update but for 1.0 I would leave it abstract

[Bremen]

I've been running a campaign lately where one side made use of boarding combat, and it struck me that five minutes per increment is a long time, possibly too long.

The basic situation was a jump point assault, where the defenders had a combination of mobile ships and also weapons platforms on the jump point. The attackers jumped in and, after considerably battering down the defenses, started boarding on the weapons platforms and some disabled ships.

It turned out that five minutes is an extremely long time in this scenario. Even with most of their weapons disabled and holes in their armor for instant boarding, the weapons platforms were able to inflict considerable damage, mostly emptying their magazines, in that time. Even though the attackers had such superiority in numbers that they were able to take every ship on the first increment of boarding combat.

I do think that boarding shouldn't instantly remove a ship from the fight, but I can't help but think five minutes per increment is too long, especially without any mechanic that diminishes a ship's fighting ability while it's being boarded if the attackers have overwhelming force.