C# Aurora Changes Discussion

[Bughunter]

Will the NPR be able to identify a ship as the same one after a refit or would that inflate your threat level?

What about scrapped or destroyed out of sight ships, will they keep being counted forever? Maybe a time limit for how many years they are seen as relevant unless a refitted version is spotted. If nothing else they would eventually be too old to be any threat.

[Zincat]

Will the NPR be able to identify a ship as the same one after a refit or would that inflate your threat level?

What about scrapped or destroyed out of sight ships, will they keep being counted forever? Maybe a time limit for how many years they are seen as relevant unless a refitted version is spotted. If nothing else they would eventually be too old to be any threat.

These are very good questions.

Regarding the "please don't colonize" vs "you can pass through" issue... isn't that a matter of specific pacts? I mean, if a nation wants a system to be exclusively theirs, I cannot ever see them granting free passage through it.

Only in case of a trade pact of some kind, and/or some other "open borders" treaty. In any other situation, I think a nation would want its "claimed" systems to be completely empty of foreign ships. Like any modern nation does.

[Steve Walmsley]

Will the NPR be able to identify a ship as the same one after a refit or would that inflate your threat level?

What about scrapped or destroyed out of sight ships, will they keep being counted forever? Maybe a time limit for how many years they are seen as relevant unless a refitted version is spotted. If nothing else they would eventually be too old to be any threat.

When a race refits a ship, it is removed from the intelligence information of other races. This is a little draconian, but prevents confusion over class and armament when it is seen again. I didn't have this restriction at first, so the same ship ended up with weapon data from multiple classes. This removal will also help with insuring that NPRs do not double-count ships. The alternative was to have the ship change classes once detected again and clear the associated data, but I thought that was open to potential bugs, plus I would be checking every detected ship in every detection phase to look for class changes.

The point about removing ships if they have not been detected for a long time - perhaps 5 years - is a good one. I'll add that when I get home tonight.

[Father Tim]

These are very good questions.

Regarding the "please don't colonize" vs "you can pass through" issue... isn't that a matter of specific pacts? I mean, if a nation wants a system to be exclusively theirs, I cannot ever see them granting free passage through it.

Only in case of a trade pact of some kind, and/or some other "open borders" treaty. In any other situation, I think a nation would want its "claimed" systems to be completely empty of foreign ships. Like any modern nation does.

What about Panama Canal system, or Suez Canal system, or St. Lawrence Seaway system?  What about 'Huge Chunk of the Pacific Ocean between Hawai'i and California' system?  I can think of many cases where two empires basically form an 'X' through a starless nexus, crappy little red dwarf, or 'interesting space terrain' system and don't want the other one to colonize or build bases there, but recognize their right to pass from A to C.

[Alsadius]

What about Panama Canal system, or Suez Canal system, or St. Lawrence Seaway system?  What about 'Huge Chunk of the Pacific Ocean between Hawai'i and California' system?  I can think of many cases where two empires basically form an 'X' through a starless nexus, crappy little red dwarf, or 'interesting space terrain' system and don't want the other one to colonize or build bases there, but recognize their right to pass from A to C.

Yeah, I think the concept of an open borders treaty is the right fix here(conditional, as always, on Steve's free time), which is why a lot of 4X games do things that way.

In a perfect world, I'd also love to set up trade orders at particular colonies, to be fulfilled by nations I have trade treaties with (i.e., open borders for civilian ships only, or maybe civilian+commercial), in exchange for Wealth, not just my own civilians.

[Father Tim]

In a perfect world, I'd also love to set up trade orders at particular colonies, to be fulfilled by nations I have trade treaties with (i.e., open borders for civilian ships only, or maybe civilian+commercial), in exchange for Wealth, not just my own civilians.

"Trade treaty" is basically 'non-military shipping only' access in VB Aurora, so I assume it will be the same for C# Aurora.  And once you ahve a trade treaty in place, both your and their civilians will attempt to move trade goods regardless of ownership of the origin & destination colonies.

[Bughunter]

It would be great if you could agree to allow access to only some systems and not just an all or nothing open borders treaty. It would have the same effect of course if no one is claiming that border system. And empty systems would not be valued very high unless they are right next to your core. Maybe there could be some agreement that both empires agree to not make claims on a certain system? A neutral zone. But would be tricky for the AI to value that correctly.

[Steve Walmsley]

The point about removing ships if they have not been detected for a long time - perhaps 5 years - is a good one. I'll add that when I get home tonight.

I've added this and updated the original post. Only ships detected in the last five years are counted. Destroyed ships will be counted, unless the NPR knows they were destroyed.

[Hazard]

IIRC the intelligence system allows for the acquisition of information from a system that is otherwise not immediately visible, like data on the production or ship construction in systems you have no presence in or even have never physically visited. This includes data on ships, classes, and the number of ships of a given class in operation by an empire. This information probably should reset the timer on ships that haven't been seen for a while, even if that ship is strictly speaking on the other end of the empire rather than on your own border and exposed to your sensors.

[Garfunkel]

I don't think that's possible in the Intelligence system:

http://aurora2.pentarch.org/index.php?topic=8495.msg109678#msg109678

When 100 Alien Race Intelligence Points have accumulated, a check is made for any intelligence gained. This is the same check as in VB6 for espionage teams and can result in new technology, survey data, new system knowledge or details of an enemy ship class. I will probably add information on alien sensors, ground units and populations to that list.

Nothing about numbers of ships or the existence of specific ships.

[Jovus]

The new independence/rebellion possibilities look amazing.

Given that this spawns a new race that's a copy of the old race, if a player or NPR resubjugates a colony he will now have two (identical) races in his empire, and in order to move 'original race' colonists back to the recently resubjugated body will have to start a new colony, correct?

It seems useful to have a system of re-identification of the two races so problems can be avoided in the long run. Probably only after the resubjugated colony reaches regular imperial population status, and probably only if the two races are actually mechanically identical would be best.

[Kristover]

The new independence/rebellion possibilities look amazing.

Given that this spawns a new race that's a copy of the old race, if a player or NPR resubjugates a colony he will now have two (identical) races in his empire, and in order to move 'original race' colonists back to the recently resubjugated body will have to start a new colony, correct?

It seems useful to have a system of re-identification of the two races so problems can be avoided in the long run. Probably only after the resubjugated colony reaches regular imperial population status, and probably only if the two races are actually mechanically identical would be best.

I mentioned something similar about communications in the suggestions page.  I really like your idea of re-identification - I think it would be hard to code though given the movement of populations around the Empire which would inevitably happen.  I personally would like to see the racial modifiers (xenophobia, expansionism, etc - but same environmental tolerances) change to reflect the new colonies's ideology that made them different and want to rebel in the first place and if that happens, reintegration as the original race might not be possible. 

[Steve Walmsley]

The new independence/rebellion possibilities look amazing.

Given that this spawns a new race that's a copy of the old race, if a player or NPR resubjugates a colony he will now have two (identical) races in his empire, and in order to move 'original race' colonists back to the recently resubjugated body will have to start a new colony, correct?

It seems useful to have a system of re-identification of the two races so problems can be avoided in the long run. Probably only after the resubjugated colony reaches regular imperial population status, and probably only if the two races are actually mechanically identical would be best.

Even though they are two different empires, they are still the same species. So you can re-capture the colony, it is immediately part of your Empire again, albeit with a low political status. You may have to create a temporary colony to hold ground forces as part of an invasion, but that is no different that attacking any alien colony.

[Jovus]

I mentioned something similar about communications in the suggestions page.  I really like your idea of re-identification - I think it would be hard to code though given the movement of populations around the Empire which would inevitably happen.  I personally would like to see the racial modifiers (xenophobia, expansionism, etc - but same environmental tolerances) change to reflect the new colonies's ideology that made them different and want to rebel in the first place and if that happens, reintegration as the original race might not be possible.

I think we're thinking about it in two different ways. You're coming at it from a simulation or story point of view, which I laud. I'm considering it from a code point of view strictly.

I'm under the impression (maybe this is different for C#) that only one race can occupy a given colony at a given time. If that restriction holds true, the new race isn't going to move about the Empire - there's nowhere they can go unless you set up new colonies for them. Further, they'll be a bit of a pain for the player, as you have to consistently make sure the correct brand of actually-identical human is ending up on the new colony you want to set up. Not a big deal for just taking back one rebellious colony, but what about ten?

[Jovus]

Even though they are two different empires, they are still the same species. So you can re-capture the colony, it is immediately part of your Empire again, albeit with a low political status. You may have to create a temporary colony to hold ground forces as part of an invasion, but that is no different that attacking any alien colony.

Thanks, Steve. That underlined part shows my concern not to be an issue. Appreciate it.