Author Topic: No Thermal when Stationary  (Read 11207 times)

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Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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No Thermal when Stationary
« on: March 26, 2019, 02:37:27 PM »
In VB6 Aurora, a ship always has its max same thermal signature even when not moving. The fleet can be set to a lower speed if desired, which reduces the signature, but that isn't directly related to movement. Part of the rationale was that a ship would need to have engines warmed up to dodge incoming fire.

However, it doesn't seem realistic that a stationary ship and one moving at full speed should have the same thermal signature so I am going to change that for C# Aurora. The 'dodge argument' doesn't really hold given the instant acceleration rates of TN ships. I'm just debating between two options:

1) If the ship has no movement orders, it has zero thermal signature. Otherwise, the signature is (current speed / max speed) * max thermal signature. This is the simplest to implement and easiest to understand. The current movement orders condition would apply regardless of whether the order at that point involved movement, so a freighter in transit and one loading cargo are both 'moving'. 

2) A ship without orders has some baseline thermal output, probably based on 1% to 5% of size in hull space, so using 5% a 10,000 ton ship would have a thermal signature of 10 (200 HS x 5%). I could make a distinction for commercial but probably easier to leave as is on the basis that some commercial functions (mining, terraforming, harvesters) would generate heat and even freighters would have less thermal shielding than similar size warships. This removes the idea of being invisible to thermal sensors when motionless, but it is still a low signature compared to VB6.

This has some implications for scouting, as there could be large stationary alien warships that you will only detect if they move or activate sensors, or if you activate sensors.
 
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Offline PlasmaXJ

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2019, 03:17:08 PM »
Number 2
Fits with real thermodynamics better.
If your reading this, your not reading my post.
 
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Offline King-Salomon

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2019, 03:21:36 PM »
I would also go with option 2 ... sounds like the better way to go for me..

if it works, it may open a possibility for C# 1.1 - higher base output but the possibility to reduce it with a new research tech...

but for 1.0 I think 2) as you mentioned it would be great :)
 

Offline Father Tim

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2019, 03:29:08 PM »
I'm assuming Option 2 also includes the "otherwise, the signature is (current speed / max speed) * max thermal signature" part?  That we're only debating how to handle non-moving ships?

I would prefer the second.  I would also prefer that unloading/refueling/etc. ships also have a reduced thermal signature, since due to my reliance on cycling orders my freighters & colony ships will always have a 'Move to (at max speed)' order queued.
 

Offline CheaterEater

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2019, 03:30:54 PM »
I vote for #1. Easier to understand is better, and with the changes to active sensors it would encourage using those to search for hidden vessels.
 

Offline jonw

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2019, 03:36:25 PM »
No 2, it means a thermal sensor will always be able to detect SOMETHING, you're not totally blind - but also seems largely consistent with actual physics

Also, good shout - this has always bothered me!
 

Offline Tree

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2019, 03:52:46 PM »
I'm all for 2.
Doesn't sound like those ships would be all that much easier to detect than the occasional DSTS or other small base, that's fine.

But oh wait, does this mean orbital platforms will have a heat signature too now? That's even better.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 03:55:04 PM by Tree »
 

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2019, 04:01:41 PM »
No 2, it means a thermal sensor will always be able to detect SOMETHING, you're not totally blind - but also seems largely consistent with actual physics

Also, good shout - this has always bothered me!

This is a tough one. As I agree with the quote I also understand the mechanism Steve is trying to implement. Question: wouldn't be then better have a way to switch off the ship? This could have a button same to the active sensor. To get on again you could suffer a jump shock alike penalty which depends on training crew etc. This should impact only thermal and EM as I don't like mothballing features to be back again.

Otherwise, I vote number 1: it sounds better than the 2nd just because the latter doesn't actually move things forward but just make them more complicated.

Offline Alucard

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2019, 04:03:00 PM »
I also vote for #1. I don't think the passive heat helps in any way. If anything, it would be more interesting if the change was not instant but it cooled gradually. That would presumably be a lot harder to code.

Then again, something like:
current_temp += (calc_temp() - current_temp) / 100.0;

Or this for computing with time.
Code: [Select]
diff = calc_temp() - current_temp;
diff * pow(0.99, time);
current_temp = calc_temp() - diff;

This would make a residual heat be present until it disappears with rounding errors and would prevent just stoping to disapper suddenly and shake heat-seeking missiles...
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 04:25:39 PM by Alucard »
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2019, 04:20:56 PM »
I'm all for 2.
Doesn't sound like those ships would be all that much easier to detect than the occasional DSTS or other small base, that's fine.

But oh wait, does this mean orbital platforms will have a heat signature too now? That's even better.

Yes re orbital platforms.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2019, 04:22:00 PM »
I'm assuming Option 2 also includes the "otherwise, the signature is (current speed / max speed) * max thermal signature" part?  That we're only debating how to handle non-moving ships?

I would prefer the second.  I would also prefer that unloading/refueling/etc. ships also have a reduced thermal signature, since due to my reliance on cycling orders my freighters & colony ships will always have a 'Move to (at max speed)' order queued.

Yes, that is for non-moving, although I would code it so that very slow-moving ships would not drop below their 'base thermal signature'.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2019, 04:23:09 PM »
I also vote for #1. I don't think the passive heat helps in any way. If anything, it would be more interesting if the change was not instant but it cooled gradually. That would presumably be a lot harder to code.

Then again, something like:
current_temp += (calc_temp() - current_temp) / 100.0;

This would make a residual heat be present until it disappears with rounding errors and would prevent just stoping to disapper suddenly and shake heat-seeking missiles...

Yes, I considered residual heat but decided it would be a pain to code :) and only make a difference on very rare occasions.
 

Offline Steve Walmsley (OP)

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2019, 04:24:24 PM »
No 2, it means a thermal sensor will always be able to detect SOMETHING, you're not totally blind - but also seems largely consistent with actual physics

Also, good shout - this has always bothered me!

This is a tough one. As I agree with the quote I also understand the mechanism Steve is trying to implement. Question: wouldn't be then better have a way to switch off the ship? This could have a button same to the active sensor. To get on again you could suffer a jump shock alike penalty which depends on training crew etc. This should impact only thermal and EM as I don't like mothballing features to be back again.

You can already 'switch off' the ship by using the 'Picket 1 km/s' order. This is to avoid having to do that every time you end your orders.
 

Offline Alucard

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2019, 04:30:41 PM »
Number 2
Fits with real thermodynamics better.
I kind of disagree. I just can't see the few degrees kelvin being detectable from thousands of kilometers. It also punishes large ships for no particular reason, as having one big ship or 10 small ones should be simillar for detection, when the heat is spread out (larger hull), not concentrated around engines...
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 04:34:36 PM by Alucard »
 

Offline Bremen

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Re: No Thermal when Stationary
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2019, 09:28:04 PM »
I like 2. Not from any realism argument - I've made my speech before that I think mechanics should be based on gameplay instead of realism. Rather, it's because 1 would enable you to hide perfectly from passive sensors, and I like that 2 allows for the possibility of sub warfare style fights, where both sides are trying to remain stealthy while finding the other first.
 
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