First Guns

[Jumpp (OP)]

I've been all-missiles since I started playing.  I wanted to try some point-defense guns instead of missiles.  I worked on gauss cannon tech for a while, and then came up with this gun:

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Damage Output 1     Rate of Fire: 4 shots every 5 seconds     Range Modifier: 4
Max Range 40,000 km     Size: 6    HTK: 2
Cost: 48    Crew: 12
Materials Required: 48x Vendarite
Development Cost for Project: 480RP
Fastest enemy anti-ship missiles I've seen so far are about 20,000.  I've come up with this turret:

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Damage Output 1x8      Rate of Fire: 5 seconds     Range Modifier: 4
Max Range 40,000 km    Turret Size: 19.3    SPW: 9.65    Turret HTK: 4
Cost: 132    Crew: 23
Maximum Tracking Speed: 40000km/s
Materials Required: 36.5x Duranium  96x Vendarite  

I've got two question:

1. Am I doing this right?

2. How on earth is this gun ever going to hit anything with a range of 40,000 km?  Even slow antiship missiles will do upwards of 60,000 km in a 5-second pulse and I've seen missiles that can do 100,000 km in 5 seconds.  Will these guns even shoot?

[draanyk]

I've seen missiles from one of the spoiler races fly at 60,000 kps. I'm starting to think that gauss cannons are only good as final fire weapons, if my understanding of the mechanism is correct. My inner defence layer consists of CIWS on every ship, more on those I expect to get targeted first (like my sensor ships), and every ship has some gauss turret set to final fire, which I am hoping means that it will fire at anything about to hit anywhere in the fleet. The idea is that if one ship is the target of the salvo, every ship's gauss turret will open fire right before the salvo strikes.

[Hawkeye]

Gauss turrets are indeed best used in final defense fire mode.
draanyk´s assumtion is correct. In that mode, they fire at any missile attacking the task group once the enemy missiles reach a distance of 10.000km, so 40k range is quite enough.

40k tracking speed is quite a bit. Remember that this will do you no good, unless your targeting system can track at that speed too, however, as only the lower of both applies.

On CIWS:
Personally, I don´t use them on my combat ships (explorers, colliers, troop transports,... yes, but not combat ships).
 
As they only protect the ship they are on and I am a big believer in the "No ship will ever operate on its own" doctine, it is more efficient to put PD-turrets on them, to create a PD network.

[orfeusz]

Gauss turrets are indeed best used in final defense fire mode.
draanyk´s assumtion is correct. In that mode, they fire at any missile attacking the task group once the enemy missiles reach a distance of 10.000km...

Really? I always believed that in final defensive fire mode beems/gauss only fire at missiles coming for the ship they are on 

[Erik L]

Really? I always believed that in final defensive fire mode beems/gauss only fire at missiles coming for the ship they are on 

I think you are thinking of CIWS, which are only for the ship they are on.

[Brian Neumann]

There are two different final fire modes.  One is "Final fire - self only" where the beam weapons only fire if the they are on the targeted ship.  the other is just final fire mode.  This mode the beam weapons will fire on any missile targeting a friendly ship when the missiles reach 10,000km.  This fire takes place in either case during the actual move portion of the turn, which is why it works the way it does.  There is a caveat here however in that for any beam weapon  to fire the target must have been detected before this.  If a missile is fired at a target and can reach the target during the first 5 seconds of flight it is functionally invisiable and no weapons will fire on the missile.  Beware of to close an engagement against missile heavy ships.

Brian

[Jumpp (OP)]

Does this look like it might be able to shoot down some missiles?

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Archangel class Cruiser    8,000 tons     213 Crew     2710.5 BP      TCS 160  TH 224  EM 0
8750 km/s     Armour 4-35     Shields 0-0     Sensors 1/1/0/0     Damage Control Rating 7     PPV 61.82
Maint Life 2.08 Years     MSP 1482    AFR 73%    IFR 1%    1YR 456    5YR 6846    Max Repair 1575 MSP
Intended Deployment Time: 36 months    Spare Berths 0   

General Electric ICF-1400 (1)    Power 1400    Fuel Use 46.38%    Signature 224    Exp 14%
Fuel Capacity 400,000 Litres    Range 19.4 billion km   (25 days at full power)

Quad Gauss Cannon R4-100 Turret (2x16)    Range 40,000km     TS: 20000 km/s     Power 0-0     RM 4    ROF 5        1 1 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Gauss Control 40-20 (2)    Max Range: 80,000 km   TS: 20000 km/s     88 75 62 50 38 25 12 0 0 0

Active Search Sensor MR3-R1 (1)     GPS 18     Range 3.2m km    Resolution 1

This design is classed as a Military Vessel for maintenance purposes


[Andrew]

Nothing wrong with that design. I think your Turret and FC Tracking are a bit slow given that with your own engine tech you could build much faster missiles. As long as the enemy missiles are not too fast these will work fine.

On final fire its the only mode I ever use for guns as it gives you one shot at the best chance to hit, while area defense may give you more than one shot but usually at a penalty .

[metalax]

If a missile is fired at a target and can reach the target during the first 5 seconds of flight it is functionally invisiable and no weapons will fire on the missile.  Beware of to close an engagement against missile heavy ships.

CIWS is the only exception to this, it will fire regardless of if your normal missile sensor has detected the missiles, but only at missile salvoes aimed at the ship it is on.

[Jumpp (OP)]

Nothing wrong with that design. I think your Turret and FC Tracking are a bit slow given that with your own engine tech you could build much faster missiles. As long as the enemy missiles are not too fast these will work fine.

On final fire its the only mode I ever use for guns as it gives you one shot at the best chance to hit, while area defense may give you more than one shot but usually at a penalty .

Yeah, my missile and engine tech is way ahead of my beam tech.  At present, that's as high as I can get the tracking.  I'm hoping it'll do for now.  So far, I haven't seen any hostile ASMs that do better than 28kps or so.

[metalax]

As long as you can spot the enemies missiles a reasonable distance out on your sensors, researching the 'Max tracking time bonus Vs Missiles' tech can help to mitigate you having a lower tracking speed.

[orfeusz]

There are two different final fire modes.  One is "Final fire - self only" where the beam weapons only fire if the they are on the targeted ship.  the other is just final fire mode.  This mode the beam weapons will fire on any missile targeting a friendly ship when the missiles reach 10,000km.  This fire takes place in either case during the actual move portion of the turn, which is why it works the way it does.  There is a caveat here however in that for any beam weapon  to fire the target must have been detected before this.  If a missile is fired at a target and can reach the target during the first 5 seconds of flight it is functionally invisiable and no weapons will fire on the missile.  Beware of to close an engagement against missile heavy ships.

Brian

OK, so is it better to design BFC and turrented lassers to have range ~200kkm (so they can shoot more times but with changeable accuracy) or not to invest in range (only to have 10kkm) because final fire mode will only utilize that range (and shoot once but with high accuracy)?


ALSO can Moderator split those topics?  

[orfeusz]

As long as you can spot the enemies missiles a reasonable distance out on your sensors, researching the 'Max tracking time bonus Vs Missiles' tech can help to mitigate you having a lower tracking speed.

Does this mean early detecting or longer aiming at (FC)?

[metalax]

Does this mean early detecting or longer aiming at (FC)?

Early detection.

If you have missile sensors with enough range for you to be using AMM's, then usually by the time enemy missiles are reaching your PD beam weapon range they will have been tracked for long enough to get the maximum bonus.

[Charlie Beeler]

OK, so is it better to design BFC and turrented lassers to have range ~200kkm (so they can shoot more times but with changeable accuracy) or not to invest in range (only to have 10kkm) because final fire mode will only utilize that range (and shoot once but with high accuracy)?


ALSO can Moderator split those topics?  

Unless you have very early beam range tech I wouldn't worry about extended range for either the BFC or the turreted weapon if the intent is missile point defense.  The reason being that normally (tech level 3+) you have a useful accuracy with std range and the hull spaces/mass is better used elsewhere.  The main reason for this, in my opinion, is that even at 4x range it is unlikely to have a useful range versus missiles do to missile speed.  By this I mean that you will tend to face missiles that can cross the full range of your BFC in a single 5 second impulse. 

There is a small exception to this, designing small ships that are intended to standoff (escort) from the main defended ship(s).  In this situation you will sometimes get multiple engagements against missiles.

My experience is that your better off multiple small turrets on each ship of a task group with them set to range 1 final fire too create a mutual defense net.