Author Topic: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition  (Read 359031 times)

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Offline Rince Wind

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1275 on: January 29, 2021, 06:17:29 AM »

Is there a way to make upgrading ground troop designs easier? So I can just copy a troop and get the new armor/weapon values and don't have to choose every weapon and so on again?
 

Offline SpaceMarine

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1276 on: January 29, 2021, 06:33:57 AM »

Is there a way to make upgrading ground troop designs easier? So I can just copy a troop and get the new armor/weapon values and don't have to choose every weapon and so on again?

unfortunately no, commonly people will put [XXXX] with a date after a units name so they can tell which are old and new, you will have to redesign every so often if you want to keep your units up to date.
 

Offline Rince Wind

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1277 on: January 29, 2021, 06:47:06 AM »
I know I have to redesign, I just hoped that there was an easier way to do that. Oh well.
 

Offline bankshot

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1278 on: January 29, 2021, 09:42:00 AM »
In VB there was a button to export ship designs to a text file - I don't see anything similar in C#.  Do I just copy/paste text from the ship design screen or am I just not seeing where the button is now?
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1279 on: January 29, 2021, 10:35:51 AM »
In VB there was a button to export ship designs to a text file - I don't see anything similar in C#.  Do I just copy/paste text from the ship design screen or am I just not seeing where the button is now?

Select, copy, paste. You can do this in several other text windows as well.
 
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Offline Borealis4x

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1280 on: January 29, 2021, 11:04:12 AM »
Is fighting a war in Sol too cramped with TN tech?

Couldn't Earth and Mars just endlessly fling missiles at each other?
 

Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1281 on: January 29, 2021, 12:12:58 PM »
Is fighting a war in Sol too cramped with TN tech?

Couldn't Earth and Mars just endlessly fling missiles at each other?

Missile ranges have been reduced a lot from VB6, both due to propulsion rules and sensor changes. Interplanetary cruise missiles, even at low TN tech, sacrifice a lot to achieve that kind of range. And managing an active sensor lock at that range...ouch.
 

Offline Borealis4x

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1282 on: January 29, 2021, 04:15:34 PM »
I get that Particle Beams don't have any damage fall-off at range, but is that enough to make up for their size and relative weakness to lasers on paper? At 30,000RP in all relevant techs, I can get a Laser a little smaller and a little slower to fire compared to a Particle Lance with a range of almost 4 million km and damage output of 65 compared to the Lance's 18 damage. I know you can't take full advantage of the Laser's range, but 4 million max range means the damage falloff is much less severe making the heavier Particle Lance kinda pointless.

Does it get better with more research?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2021, 04:19:49 PM by Borealis4x »
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1283 on: January 29, 2021, 04:20:06 PM »
I get that Particle Beams don't have any damage fall-off at range, but is that enough to make up for their size and relative weakness to lasers on paper? At 30,000RP in all relevant techs, I can get a Laser a little smaller and a little slower to fire compared to a Particle Lance with a range of almost 4 million km and damage output of 65 compared to the Lance's 18 damage. I know you can't take full advantage of the Laser's range, but 4 million max range means the damage falloff is much less severe making the heavier Particle Lance kinda pointless.

Thing is, at long ranges armor will stop lasers dead in it's tracks - not the case for particle lances. Against unshielded but heavily armored targets, particle lances are very strong at long ranges. Even with high max range on the laser, because it does reduced damage and doesn't shoot in a straight line, you will to less damage to armored targets than a particle lance would.

However, in general I agree that either lasers are too strong, or other beam weapons are too weak. If you want the most powerful fleet the only choice really is lasers and missiles with gauss if you don't want to use AMMs.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1284 on: January 29, 2021, 04:36:47 PM »
I get that Particle Beams don't have any damage fall-off at range, but is that enough to make up for their size and relative weakness to lasers on paper? At 30,000RP in all relevant techs, I can get a Laser a little smaller and a little slower to fire compared to a Particle Lance with a range of almost 4 million km and damage output of 65 compared to the Lance's 18 damage. I know you can't take full advantage of the Laser's range, but 4 million max range means the damage falloff is much less severe making the heavier Particle Lance kinda pointless.

Thing is, at long ranges armor will stop lasers dead in it's tracks - not the case for particle lances. Against unshielded but heavily armored targets, particle lances are very strong at long ranges. Even with high max range on the laser, because it does reduced damage and doesn't shoot in a straight line, you will to less damage to armored targets than a particle lance would.

However, in general I agree that either lasers are too strong, or other beam weapons are too weak. If you want the most powerful fleet the only choice really is lasers and missiles with gauss if you don't want to use AMMs.

There is also a significant contribution from BFC range. Maximum weapon ranges tend to increase quadratically* while BFC ranges increase linearly*. At some point you will regularly have laser with ranges exceeding your BFC range. Particle beams are actually an exception to this as their range increases linearly but in general they are just short of maximum BFC ranges at each tech level, though by exactly how much varies. This means that despite the very long weapon range of lasers, in practice their range will be limited to about 15-25% beyond the range of a particle beam, and in this part of their range accuracy will fall off to 20% or worse, compounded by damage falloff especially at lower tech levels.

*Actually it's more complicated than that since the gain from tech is geometric, but that is not the important part here.

All together, this means that the lasers have an advantage against particle beam ships if they can kite them by being faster; however, if the particle beam ship is faster it can keep the lasers at maximum range and take advantage of their lack of damage falloff (and, with Lances, superior penetration to boot) to out-DPS the lasers. At close range the lasers probably win by sheer DPS.

In a direct contest between lasers and PBs, the lasers are probably better just because they are more flexible as long as you are winning the propulsion arms race. However it is very difficult to beat the long-range alpha striking and penetration of a Particle Lance on a fast ship, and particle beams complement Railguns quite well which mitigates their short-range DPS problems. Given this, and the fact that the "main weapons" triangle goes as missiles > lasers > railguns > missiles (all three of these are capable of serving as a fleet's only weapon system including point defense, although they fill different roles to different degrees of effectiveness), I think particle beams are well-suited as they currently are if you think of them as a secondary rather than primary weapon.
 

Offline Borealis4x

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1285 on: January 29, 2021, 04:47:26 PM »
I get that Particle Beams don't have any damage fall-off at range, but is that enough to make up for their size and relative weakness to lasers on paper? At 30,000RP in all relevant techs, I can get a Laser a little smaller and a little slower to fire compared to a Particle Lance with a range of almost 4 million km and damage output of 65 compared to the Lance's 18 damage. I know you can't take full advantage of the Laser's range, but 4 million max range means the damage falloff is much less severe making the heavier Particle Lance kinda pointless.

Thing is, at long ranges armor will stop lasers dead in it's tracks - not the case for particle lances. Against unshielded but heavily armored targets, particle lances are very strong at long ranges. Even with high max range on the laser, because it does reduced damage and doesn't shoot in a straight line, you will to less damage to armored targets than a particle lance would.

However, in general I agree that either lasers are too strong, or other beam weapons are too weak. If you want the most powerful fleet the only choice really is lasers and missiles with gauss if you don't want to use AMMs.

There is also a significant contribution from BFC range. Maximum weapon ranges tend to increase quadratically* while BFC ranges increase linearly*. At some point you will regularly have laser with ranges exceeding your BFC range. Particle beams are actually an exception to this as their range increases linearly but in general they are just short of maximum BFC ranges at each tech level, though by exactly how much varies. This means that despite the very long weapon range of lasers, in practice their range will be limited to about 15-25% beyond the range of a particle beam, and in this part of their range accuracy will fall off to 20% or worse, compounded by damage falloff especially at lower tech levels.

*Actually it's more complicated than that since the gain from tech is geometric, but that is not the important part here.

All together, this means that the lasers have an advantage against particle beam ships if they can kite them by being faster; however, if the particle beam ship is faster it can keep the lasers at maximum range and take advantage of their lack of damage falloff (and, with Lances, superior penetration to boot) to out-DPS the lasers. At close range the lasers probably win by sheer DPS.

In a direct contest between lasers and PBs, the lasers are probably better just because they are more flexible as long as you are winning the propulsion arms race. However it is very difficult to beat the long-range alpha striking and penetration of a Particle Lance on a fast ship, and particle beams complement Railguns quite well which mitigates their short-range DPS problems. Given this, and the fact that the "main weapons" triangle goes as missiles > lasers > railguns > missiles (all three of these are capable of serving as a fleet's only weapon system including point defense, although they fill different roles to different degrees of effectiveness), I think particle beams are well-suited as they currently are if you think of them as a secondary rather than primary weapon.

Well thats the thing, I do consider them primary weapons for all the research you have to put into them and their size. I thought I was getting some sort of bad-ass giant death ray but it turns out to be a very situational weapons.

Perhaps if you could spinal mount it or change its focal size it'd be better.
 

Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1286 on: January 29, 2021, 05:48:36 PM »
Instead of a bad-ass giant death ray, you get a bad giant-ass death ray!
 

Offline brondi00

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1287 on: January 29, 2021, 06:04:00 PM »
I'm sorry particle beams.  You shouldn't have to hear such slander.  I still love you.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1288 on: January 29, 2021, 07:09:49 PM »
Well thats the thing, I do consider them primary weapons for all the research you have to put into them and their size. I thought I was getting some sort of bad-ass giant death ray but it turns out to be a very situational weapons.

Perhaps if you could spinal mount it or change its focal size it'd be better.

It is a perfectly serviceable weapon. The only reason it cannot be a primary weapon is that it lacks PD ability, so you see a lot of people mix them with Gauss or Railguns to cover that. However, researching two weapon systems is inevitably slower than researching one, which is why missiles, lasers, and railguns are considered as primary weapons as to varying degrees they can fill all roles including PD/AMM. This said, with particle beams as a primary weapon you can "cheat" and use base 10 cm railguns with capacitor recharge 3 tech and they will be good PD for a long time especially if you build fast ships. You can do the same with plasma although they lack range, sadly meson and HPM are too situational to be a primary weapon.

Aside, note that Particle Lance tech is intended to be the PB answer to spinal mounting, sadly you do not get the range but you do get a weapon that basically drills a hole in enemy armor at any range which is pretty damn good.

I'm sorry particle beams.  You shouldn't have to hear such slander.  I still love you.

No weapon is more badass except possibly turreted lasers for that old-timey big-gun battleship feel.
 

Offline TheTalkingMeowth

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1289 on: January 29, 2021, 07:13:56 PM »
No weapon is more badass except possibly turreted lasers for that old-timey big-gun battleship feel.

I have a soft spot for frakk off huge spinal lasers, personally. WAVE MOTION GUN!