Author Topic: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition  (Read 358996 times)

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Offline Kylemmie

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1425 on: February 17, 2021, 03:41:26 PM »
Is there a way to limit pop-growth on a planet that only has a space station and therefore a limited number of pop-space? it is annoying to have them reproduce above the limit and then revolting having not enough space to live in...

Right now there appears to be no option to limit it. All you can do is provide Lebensraum or fight the unrest. I am personally hoping for a population cap mechanic for space stations, which works similarly to what we have for orbital bodies.


Newer player so this confused me a bit. OP wants to limit pop growth on a planet - Kilo replied 'no, but then stated there is a method for 'orbital bodies'. What is the distinction between a planet and an orbital body? Planet, asteroid, comet, moon - all can have colonies, so I was treating 'planet' as a generic orbital body for this convo.
 
How do you cap growth on an orbital body? I can stop immigration, but I can't impose sterilization right? Peeps gonna make babies and make infra so the babies can go live on the planet/orbital body despite the 'stable' setting. If it is a high CC world (using Habs, so prob), the auto infra building can't keep up with the sex addicts.

I assume there is a 'colony' on the planet to contain the installations the Hab peeps are working, for which the Hab peeps gleefully make infra whether you want it on that surface or not. Issue could be the colony using the overall planet pop max for the growth % even tho there is no capability to survive on the surface atm? Or does it happen once infra hits the surface, the colony see's the max planet pop size as the number to use for pop growth, despite your lack of infra to house them all?

Either eliminate the ability for Hab peeps to construct Infra, or make sure the Planet pop cap isn't used in the pop growth formula for Hab only colonies?

He is referring to the fact that planets also have a population capacity like orbital habitats do. The problem the people are pointing out is that there is no way to prevent orbital habitat populations to "spill over" onto the planet, which thanks to the way worker availability and agricultural sector size is calculated can result in a massive loss in workforce.



Okay. I get and agree with the perceived issue. See my options for a solution....

What I don't get is the ' I am personally hoping for a population cap mechanic for space stations, which works similarly to what we have for orbital bodies.'  What mechanic is this that differentiates between the two?  What mechanic solves this issue for orbital bodies?  'Stable' doesn't stop pop from making babies.

I'm not trying to be difficult :)   Aurora constantly teaches me that I need to keep asking questions to learn what I don't know. That statement sounds like there is a mechanic to stop pop from growing on orbital bodies that I am unaware of.

Is the difference one of having habs around a body but no colony on the body?  Makes me curious as to when that is a reasonable action. What is the point of habs if there is no colony housing installations that need workers? 
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1426 on: February 17, 2021, 04:01:59 PM »
Okay. I get and agree with the perceived issue. See my options for a solution....

What I don't get is the ' I am personally hoping for a population cap mechanic for space stations, which works similarly to what we have for orbital bodies.'  What mechanic is this that differentiates between the two?  What mechanic solves this issue for orbital bodies?  'Stable' doesn't stop pop from making babies.

I'm not trying to be difficult :)   Aurora constantly teaches me that I need to keep asking questions to learn what I don't know. That statement sounds like there is a mechanic to stop pop from growing on orbital bodies that I am unaware of.

Is the difference one of having habs around a body but no colony on the body?  Makes me curious as to when that is a reasonable action. What is the point of habs if there is no colony housing installations that need workers?

    An orbital habitat adds orbital habitation capacity to a planet on top of whatever population capacity the planet has - this means that workers living in habitats will work installations on the surface, hence why there aren't any "ship" component that need workers. More importantly, orbital habitats provide population capacity that is independent of the colony cost of the world in question. This means for planets like Venus it is easier and cheaper to use orbital habitats instead of infrastructure.

    Another important point is how workers are distributed in a planetary work force. There are three sectors; agricultural, service and manufacturing. Service isn't too important for this discussion but it starts at 0% and goes to 70% max as the colony grows in size. Agriculture takes a minimum of 5% of the workforce and for every 1 CC it takes an additional 5% (might be wrong on the specific number but you get the gist) so a colony cost 1 world will need 10% agriculture. Lastly the manufacturing sector is whatever remains - this is the workforce available to work in your factories on the surface.
    The problem with high colony cost worlds is that they might need too much agricultural workers leaving no workers for a useful manufacturing sector. This is where orbital habitats come in. Population living in an orbital habitat requires no agriculture sector, as such you can use orbital habitats on high colony cost worlds that would otherwise not provide a useable workforce.

    So we finally arrive at the population growth issue that people are on about. You are absolutely correct, you can set the planet to "stable" in order to prevent colonists from being brought in but it wont stop people being born. Normally this is fine, but if you have a planet that is colonizable with infrastructure like Venus that also has orbital habitats you encounter a problem. The orbital habitation capacity is independent of the surface population capacity, so if a planet can house 2.5bn people but the orbital habitats can only fit 400m, eventually the orbital habitats will fill up and newborns on that colony will instead go on the surface and automatically build infrastructure to live there.
This causes two problems:
- Unrest starts to rise because the people who initially land on the surface die to the planet (overcrowding) since they haven't built the infrastructure yet to support living on the surface.
- Now that there are people living on the surface the entire population needs an agricultural sector, on high CC planets like Venus this is a disaster because you will actually lose workers.

So what people are asking for is not an option to stop births in general - it's to allow someone to mark the colony as an orbital only colony - that way people do not go down on the surface automatically and ruin an otherwise viable colony.

Edit: There will always be a colony on a body regardless of whether or not there are orbital habitats present
« Last Edit: February 17, 2021, 04:04:10 PM by Droll »
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1427 on: February 17, 2021, 04:10:04 PM »
- Now that there are people living on the surface the entire population needs an agricultural sector, on high CC planets like Venus this is a disaster because you will actually lose workers.

I have some confusion here, because my understanding has been that OrbHabs always provide 100% of their population as manufacturing, accounted separately from the planet-based population that needs such frivolities as food and drink. In this case, mechanically if a bit of infra and population happen to pop up on the planet those workers would be essentially useless but would not affect the OrbHab population which remains dedicated solely to manufacturing. It seems to me that if this is not the case, OrbHabs are not in fact WAI and this should be a bug report.

However I admit I'm not terribly experienced with OrbHabs (I just can't seem to ever generate a good Venus worth colonizing...) so I'm open to clarification. Of course the unrest is a problem which I readily understand, albeit one not too hard to solve if you stick an infantry battalion on the surface.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1428 on: February 17, 2021, 04:29:15 PM »
- Now that there are people living on the surface the entire population needs an agricultural sector, on high CC planets like Venus this is a disaster because you will actually lose workers.

I have some confusion here, because my understanding has been that OrbHabs always provide 100% of their population as manufacturing, accounted separately from the planet-based population that needs such frivolities as food and drink. In this case, mechanically if a bit of infra and population happen to pop up on the planet those workers would be essentially useless but would not affect the OrbHab population which remains dedicated solely to manufacturing. It seems to me that if this is not the case, OrbHabs are not in fact WAI and this should be a bug report.

However I admit I'm not terribly experienced with OrbHabs (I just can't seem to ever generate a good Venus worth colonizing...) so I'm open to clarification. Of course the unrest is a problem which I readily understand, albeit one not too hard to solve if you stick an infantry battalion on the surface.

I can confirm from experience that it is not considered separately, in fact when a population is living in orbit and the surface the agricultural % is actually weighted - I have a world of 5bn people where 1bn of them live in orbit, the planet is CC 0 and has 4% agriculture, which is less than the 5% minimum it's supposed to have.

Also, the 100% manufacturing isn't true since orbital habs still need a service sector, so they at worst provide 30% of the population as workers.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1429 on: February 17, 2021, 04:31:00 PM »
- Now that there are people living on the surface the entire population needs an agricultural sector, on high CC planets like Venus this is a disaster because you will actually lose workers.

I have some confusion here, because my understanding has been that OrbHabs always provide 100% of their population as manufacturing, accounted separately from the planet-based population that needs such frivolities as food and drink. In this case, mechanically if a bit of infra and population happen to pop up on the planet those workers would be essentially useless but would not affect the OrbHab population which remains dedicated solely to manufacturing. It seems to me that if this is not the case, OrbHabs are not in fact WAI and this should be a bug report.

However I admit I'm not terribly experienced with OrbHabs (I just can't seem to ever generate a good Venus worth colonizing...) so I'm open to clarification. Of course the unrest is a problem which I readily understand, albeit one not too hard to solve if you stick an infantry battalion on the surface.

I can confirm from experience that it is not considered separately, in fact when a population is living in orbit and the surface the agricultural % is actually weighted - I have a world of 5bn people where 1bn of them live in orbit, the planet is CC 0 and has 4% agriculture, which is less than the 5% minimum it's supposed to have.

Also, the 100% manufacturing isn't true since orbital habs still need a service sector, so they at worst provide 30% of the population as workers.

Good to know, thanks. Another feature about which the C# wiki is out of date then, I think. Fortunately there is nothing complicated about automines so my preferred MO remains the same.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1430 on: February 17, 2021, 04:33:54 PM »
I actually really like the way orbital habitats interact with surface workforce, I think in that regard they are perfect and not an underpowered asset thanks to the fact that they can effectively be used to add population capacity to even already habitable worlds.

So on the off-chance that it isn't WAI, I would propose that it become the WAI.
 

Offline nuclearslurpee

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1431 on: February 17, 2021, 04:39:02 PM »
I actually really like the way orbital habitats interact with surface workforce, I think in that regard they are perfect and not an underpowered asset thanks to the fact that they can effectively be used to add population capacity to even already habitable worlds.

So on the off-chance that it isn't WAI, I would propose that it become the WAI.

It seems like a reasonable compromise is to keep the split of OrbHab population into Manufacturing and Service sectors - makes sense enough - but correct the weighting of agriculture so it only reflects the surface population. I do like the idea of a large OrbHab "colony" having small groups which conduct project studies of life in such conditions for scientific reasons (i.e. I'm fine with the intrinsic infra + pop growth mechanic), but if it drags down the entire habitat it's too much I think given that a major use case is supposed to be exactly those situations.
 

Offline Droll

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1432 on: February 17, 2021, 04:47:16 PM »
I actually really like the way orbital habitats interact with surface workforce, I think in that regard they are perfect and not an underpowered asset thanks to the fact that they can effectively be used to add population capacity to even already habitable worlds.

So on the off-chance that it isn't WAI, I would propose that it become the WAI.

It seems like a reasonable compromise is to keep the split of OrbHab population into Manufacturing and Service sectors - makes sense enough - but correct the weighting of agriculture so it only reflects the surface population. I do like the idea of a large OrbHab "colony" having small groups which conduct project studies of life in such conditions for scientific reasons (i.e. I'm fine with the intrinsic infra + pop growth mechanic), but if it drags down the entire habitat it's too much I think given that a major use case is supposed to be exactly those situations.

Your fix would certainly eliminate one of the problems caused by a population transitioning from orbital to surface life but I don't like it on the basis of mechanical consistency of OHs.
With your fix, an orbital habitat that with an accompanying surface population needs it's own agricultural sector but one that is alone doesn't need one all of a sudden.

I could literally move the same orbital habitat from world to world and it would be mechanically different even though it has the same design.

So if you want that fix I would say that they should need the 5% agriculture all the time except unlike planets they are fixed at 5% and don't change with CC.

Again I think the system right now works perfectly so I'm going to argue status quo here.
 

Offline Borealis4x

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1433 on: February 18, 2021, 11:51:25 AM »
So do Thermal and EM sensors add up or will only the largest emitter of Thermal or EM be detected?

For instance, if I have 1 ship with a Thermal emittance of 100 and 1 ship with a Thermal emittance of 200, will the total Thermal emittance of the fleet be 200 or 300?
 

Offline Ektor

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1434 on: February 18, 2021, 11:57:33 AM »
As far as I know, each ship will be independenty detected.
 

Offline brondi00

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1435 on: February 18, 2021, 12:01:00 PM »
Each ship does its own independent detection.  So you will see the TH200 one get the contact first and report it.  The TH100 will only be relevant as a backup, if the other is destroyed or if you intend to send it in ahead as a scout
 

Offline liveware

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1436 on: February 18, 2021, 07:56:00 PM »
So do Thermal and EM sensors add up or will only the largest emitter of Thermal or EM be detected?

For instance, if I have 1 ship with a Thermal emittance of 100 and 1 ship with a Thermal emittance of 200, will the total Thermal emittance of the fleet be 200 or 300?

Also, your detection capability is not the sum of all of your passive sensors in a particular fleet. Your largest single passive sensor is effectively your longest range sensor.
Open the pod-bay doors HAL...
 

Offline brondi00

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1437 on: February 18, 2021, 09:37:28 PM »
Yea.  There is no such thing as "fleet" detection.  The game doesn't imply this and I'm not sure if this idea comes from some other game?

But IRL the nimitz and it's escorts don't add up their detection abilities into one super detection. 
 

Offline liveware

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1438 on: February 18, 2021, 09:52:18 PM »
Yea.  There is no such thing as "fleet" detection.  The game doesn't imply this and I'm not sure if this idea comes from some other game?

But IRL the nimitz and it's escorts don't add up their detection abilities into one super detection.

There are real life techniques that work that way:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_interferometer

But Aurora does not work that way.
Open the pod-bay doors HAL...
 

Offline brondi00

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Re: Questions Not Worth Their Own Thread: C# Edition
« Reply #1439 on: February 18, 2021, 10:36:35 PM »
I'm sorry but that nowhere near the same.